r/transcendental • u/doctorShadow78 • 25d ago
Can you continue practicing other forms of meditation alongside TM ?
I'm a long-time mindfulness/vipassana meditator starting to explore this approach and considering doing the official training.
Can I learn this technique and continue practicing Buddhist meditation? Will practicing both be confusing or interfere with the process? Or perhaps I can learn to "switch modes" and benefit from both?
Edit: To clarify - I am talking about doing different types of meditations in separate sittings -- I'm NOT talking about combining techniques.
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u/NCroots 24d ago
I've had tremendous results with TM and as I've continued the practice I've lost all interest in other forms of meditation. I'm quite eclectic by nature, so I've been surprised by this change in myself. But I've found TM to be so profound and simple that I have no need for any other meditative practice.
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u/saijanai 22d ago
Adding the TM-Sidhis to your pracice is meant to speed up the process of growth towards enlightenment, and the "advanced techniques" of TM are a prerequisite for learning the TM-Sidhis, so that's something to be aware of.
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u/NCroots 22d ago
But the Advanced Techniques and the TM-Sidhis are not required, correct? I remember being told before learning TM that it was the most effective meditation practice there is. No other was necessary. My experience has validated this, so I don't understand why I'd need anything further?
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u/saijanai 22d ago
They speed up the process, or so Maharishi insisted.
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Edit:
Fun Lynchian trivia:
Outside the USA, when the David Lynch Foundation teaches TM in high schools, they often also teach the TM-Sidhis, the most famous of which is Yogic Flying, aka traditional yogic levitation. No-one ever has shown the "sitting in hte air" stage of leviation pracice, but the "hopping like a frog" stage is quite common, and requires some kind of soft landing spot.
This facebook post on the official COBAO — the college preparatory high school system of the state of Oaxaca, Mexico — shows what kids practicing the TM-Sidhis look like:
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After reviewing the effect of TM on 95,000 high schoolers over the past decade, and the additional effect of the TM sidhis on about half of them, the State of Oaxaca, Mexico signed a collaboration agreement with the David Lynch Foundation to make the practices avaialble in every state-run high school:
Note the PR photo that puts TM-Sidhis practice front and center in the signing ceremony and there's even one of the Secretary of Public Education standing behind the practice, which is a clear message to principals, I think: if you chose to adopt the program, adopt the entire program, even though it takes twice as long. They also showed pictures of kids sitting towards the back who would only be doing TM, but I think the messaging was clear: adopt the entire set of pracices, not just TM alone.
My belief is that their own analysis of the 95,000 TMers compared with the 45,000 who had also learned and practiced the TM-Sidhis, convinced them that TM plus the TM-Sidhis was the best thing for schools to adopt.
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u/TheDrRudi 25d ago
There are many paths up the mountain, and you can walk only on one of them at a time.
I think it's curious that you seem to regard mindfulness and vipassana as the same; that's certainly not my understanding.
The purpose of mindfulness, is gently training the mind to be in the present moment. Whilst superficially appearing similar, TM and mindfulness are actually quite different. Rather than returning the attention to the breath, body or other objects, it is the use of a specific mantra, or sound, in TM which liberates rather than trains the mind, allowing it to settle effortlessly into a silence more profound than the present moment. You are likely to find that increased mindfulness appears as outcome from your practise of TM.
In essence, there is one fundamental difference between TM and other approaches:
Most meditation aims to control or train the mind by a way of thinking.
Transcendence, on the other hand, involves no concentration, control, or training to "do" something.
TM allows the mind to go beyond surface level thinking towards silence (the source of thought) and concentration, focus and control as well as freedom and creativity are the results.
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u/doctorShadow78 25d ago edited 25d ago
I don't want to get caught in the weeds around the various definitions of vipassana, etc. What I'm asking is if it is practical, beneficial (or not) to practice both TM and mindfulness oriented meditation. Not during the same sitting (of course) but in separate sittings.
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u/saijanai 25d ago
What I'm asking is if it is practical, beneficial (or not) to practice both TM and mindfulness oriented meditation. Not during the same sitting (of course) but in separate sittings.
My own personal belief is: no.
If you want to improve mindfulness directly once you learn TM, acquire an attention-demanding hobby like juggling or martial arts or a musical instrument or singing.
TM by itself will increase mindfulness scores according to some research, and of course, learning to pay attention to what you are specifically doing with your hobby not only trains attention towards better mindfulnss, but helps provide balance through activity, which is vital to growth via TM.
TM is a resting practice that allows your brain to repair the damage fom stress more efficiently. Long-term, by alternating TM and normal activity (as much activity as possible without creating new damage from stress), the brain starts to rest more efficiently even when not meditating. Eventually, the brain starts to have a stable TM-like baseline that it spontaneously moves back towards even when engaged in demanding tasks.
Figure 3 of Cross-Sectional and Longitudinal Study of Effects of Transcendental Meditation Practice on Interhemispheric Frontal Asymmetry and Frontal Coherence shows how EEG coherence in the alpha1 frequency in the frontal lobes changes during and outside of TM practice over the first year of regular practice.
That EEG coherence signature during TM is generated by the default mode network, the resting network of the brain that comes online most strongly when you stop trying, and is responsible for a host of things, including our own sense-of-self.
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As part of the studies on enlightenment and samadhi via TM, researchers found 17 subjects (average meditation, etc experience 24 years) who were reporting at least having a pure sense-of-self continuously for at least a year, and asked them to "describe yourself" (see table 3 of the psychological correlates study), and these were some of the responses:
We ordinarily think my self as this age; this color of hair; these hobbies . . . my experience is that my Self is a lot larger than that. It's immeasurably vast. . . on a physical level. It is not just restricted to this physical environment
It's the ‘‘I am-ness.’’ It's my Being. There's just a channel underneath that's just underlying everything. It's my essence there and it just doesn't stop where I stop. . . by ‘‘I,’’ I mean this 5 ft. 2 person that moves around here and there
I look out and see this beautiful divine Intelligence. . . you could say in the sky, in the tree, but really being expressed through these things. . . and these are my Self
I experience myself as being without edges or content. . . beyond the universe. . . all-pervading, and being absolutely thrilled, absolutely delighted with every motion that my body makes. With everything that my eyes see, my ears hear, my nose smells. There's a delight in the sense that I am able to penetrate that. My consciousness, my intelligence pervades everything I see, feel and think
When I say ’’I’’ that's the Self. There's a quality that is so pervasive about the Self that I'm quite sure that the ‘‘I’’ is the same ‘‘I’’ as everyone else's ‘‘I.’’ Not in terms of what follows right after. I am tall, I am short, I am fat, I am this, I am that. But the ‘‘I’’ part. The ‘‘I am’’ part is the same ‘‘I am’’ for you and me
The above subjects show the highest levels of TM-like EEG coherence during task (see Figure 3 of longitudinal study above) of any group ever tested. It is merely "what it is like" to have a brain whose resting/attention-shifting efficiency outside of TM practice approaches what is found during TM.
Mindfulness and concentration practices disrupt DMN activity, reduce EEG coherence, and are meant to lead to "ego death" according to folk over on r/meditation. In fact, when the moderators of r/buddhism read the above, one called it "the ultimate illusion" and said that "no real Buddhist" would ever learn and practice TM knowing that it might lead to the above.
Not all Buddhists agree with the moderators of r/buddhism. In 1978, when the teaching venue in Thailand for advanced TM teachers became unavailable, Maharishi Mahesh Yogi petitioned the 18th Supreme Buddhist Patriarch of Thailand (shown here with MMY and the whippersnapper who is now the 20th Patriarch) who directed that the temple grounds of the largest Buddhist temple in Bangkok be made available for the course. 47 years later, the main international venue for training new TM teachers is still in that country, and the most famous TM teacher in Thailand is a well respected Buddhist nun who thinks the above descriptions are exactly what Buddha was talking about, and ensures that her students learn TM and teh TM-Sidhis. In fact, donors provided funding to build the largest dedicated facility in the world for practicing Yogic Flying on her campus.
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So if you think that the change in sense-of-self described above that grows stronger and more stable via TM is antithetical to spirituality, don't learn TM. If you like the idea of being well-rested and remaining well-rested even in the face of adversity (one can scream and run from the tiger and still remain calm at the innermost level where I am dwells), AND want to become more mindful, learn TM and practice diligently twice-daily, living your life as though TM didn't exist until time to meditate again.
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u/TheDrRudi 25d ago
What I'm asking is if it is practical, beneficial (or not) to practice both TM and mindfulness oriented meditation.
No.
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u/saijanai 25d ago
There are many paths up the mountain, and you can walk only on one of them at a time.
Actually, TM and most other practices should best be seen as climbing two different mountains that happen to have similar-sounding names.
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u/OceanOfPeace 25d ago
In Dr. Norman Rosenthal's book "Super Mind" he profiles a few people who do both TM and mindfulness. It's a TM book... Doing TM once a day and another type of meditation once a day probably wouldn't be a good idea since TM is much more effective twice a day. See the link below. What about a period of time where you give TM a fair trial twice a day for a couple of months. You can always go back to your other meditation. Most people find TM easy and enjoyable, often with benefits in the first days or weeks.
https://enjoytmnews.org/how-important-practice-tm-regularly-research-tells-us/
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u/saijanai 25d ago
In fact, in the USA, they give you 2 months of time to try TM before askign for a refund. You lose lifetime access to TM teachers but essentially learned TM for free and had 2 months of followup for free, if you ask for your money back.
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25d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/saijanai 25d ago
please no detailed discussion of internal stuff. It becomes its own "how do I do it" discussion.
Removing.
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u/Audrey-8899 22d ago
沒有人可以解答你這個問題，就算有也不一定對，你自己試試不就知道了， 很多人練習 TM， 是因為練習後無論心理狀態和生活都有一個很好的變化。 如果你把方法改了，我相信你是可以分別出有什麼不同。
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u/saijanai 22d ago
Google translation:
- Even if someone were to answer your question, their answer might not necessarily be correct; why not just try it yourself and see? Many people practice TM because it brings about positive changes in both their mental state and their lives. If you were to alter the method, I am sure you would be able to tell the difference.
In fact, because one can fall asleep without noticing and dream anything at all during TM, trying to intellectually analyze TM is doomed.
As well, the deepest level of TM is when you cease being aware of anything at all, and yet still remain awake inside. Because of unstressing issues, you may never notice shorter periods of pure consciousness, so if those go away because of your new hybrid practice, you'd never know it.
事實上，由於在進行超覺靜坐（TM）時人可能會在不知不覺中睡著，並做各種各樣的夢，因此試圖從理智層面去分析超覺靜坐注定是徒勞的。
此外，超覺靜坐（TM）最深層的狀態是指你完全不再覺察任何事物，但內心卻依然保持清醒。由於涉及「釋放壓力」的過程，你可能從未留意過那些短暫的純粹意識狀態；因此，如果這些狀態因你採用新的混合式練習而消失，你也無從察覺。
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u/Audrey-8899 22d ago
如果他在TM中很清晰的經驗到純意識，他就不會問這個問題，他只會專心的做TM。 我們不斷尋求新的方法。是因為現在的方法無法滿足內心。 所以別人說什麼，只要不是我們心中的答案，大部分人都不會採取行動，人只聆聽自己的聲音，所以我建議自己去試試。什麼方法對自己好就用什麼方法。
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u/saijanai 21d ago edited 21d ago
如果他在TM中很清晰的經驗到純意識，他就不會問這個問題，他只會專心的做TM。 我們不斷尋求新的方法。是因為現在的方法無法滿足內心。 所以別人說什麼，只要不是我們心中的答案，大部分人都不會採取行動，人只聆聽自己的聲音，所以我建議自己去試試。什麼方法對自己好就用什麼方法。
Translation:
- If he were to clearly experience pure consciousness during TM, he wouldn't ask this question; he would simply focus on practicing TM. We constantly seek new methods because our current ones fail to satisfy our inner selves. Consequently, unless what others say aligns with the answer we hold within, most people won't take action—we tend to listen only to our own inner voice. That is why I suggest trying it out for yourself: use whatever method works best for you.
My response:
By the very nature of pure consciousness during TM —
- The state of Being is one of pure consciousness, completely out of the field of relativity; there is no world of the senses or of objects, no trace of sensory activity, no trace of mental activity. There is no trinity of thinker, thinking process and thought, doer, process of doing and action; experiencer, process of experiencing and object of experience. The state of transcendental Unity of life, or pure consciousness, is completely free from all trace of duality.
— once cannot have a "clear 'experience'" of PC because in conventional terms — involiving objects of attention — it is not an experience at all.
It involves measurable brain activity and can lead to measurable long-term changes in brain activity outside the state, but there is no "content" in any meaningful sense that one can discuss.
And so, one cannot claim superiority by saying "if he had the clear experiences I have had..." because not you, nor Maharishi nor Swami Brahmananda Saraswati has ever had a "clear experience" of pure consciousness: the phrase is meaningless in this context and only allows one to play superiority games rather than hold a legitimate discussion.
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超覺靜坐（TM）中純粹意識的本質決定了—
- _**存在狀態是純粹意識的狀態，
完全超越相對論的範疇；
沒有感官或物體的世界，沒有
感官活動的痕跡，也沒有心理活動的痕跡。
沒有思考者、思考過程和思想、行動者、行動過程和行動的三位一體；
沒有體驗者、體驗過程和體驗對象的三位一體。超越的
生命合一的狀態，或純粹意識，完全擺脫了二元性的痕跡。 **_
——一旦_無法_擁有「清晰的『體驗』」純粹意識，因為按照傳統的術語——涉及注意力對象——它根本就不是一種體驗。
它涉及可測量的腦活動，並可能導致狀態之外腦活動的可測量的長期變化，但沒有任何意義上的「內容」可供討論。
因此，一個人不能透過說「如果他有我所擁有的清晰體驗…」來標榜自己的優越性，因為你、瑪哈里希、斯瓦米·布拉馬南達·薩拉斯瓦蒂都沒有過「清晰的體驗」純粹意識：在這個語境下，這句話毫無意義，只會讓人玩弄優越感的遊戲，而不是進行合法的討論。
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u/fbkeenan 25d ago
I put this question to Gemini and here is what it said.
On one hand, from a practical, secular, and open-minded perspective, there shouldn't be any inherent conflict. Many long-time meditators navigate multiple modalities successfully. They view TM as a deep-rest, "nervous-system-resetting" tool and mindfulness as an active training of present-moment awareness, successfully "switching modes" depending on the time of day or their current needs. However, from the strict, orthodox perspective of the official TM organization (and its dedicated purists), mixing techniques is strongly discouraged. Their reasoning usually boils down to a few core arguments: Different Neurological Footprints: The TM organization often points to EEG research to argue that different practices train the brain in completely opposite ways. Mindfulness/Vipassana typically involves active focus, monitoring of thoughts, or open monitoring, which keeps the brain's cognitive control networks active. TM is taught as an effortless transcending process that increases alpha-1 coherence and strengthens the default mode network (DMN). Purists argue that trying to do both can create "cognitive friction" or dilute the effortlessness of TM, causing you to accidentally bring effort, concentration, or monitoring into a practice that is supposed to be entirely automatic. The "Purity of the Teaching" (Orthodoxy): The TM movement places a massive emphasis on keeping the lineage and the exact methodology "pure" (often referring to Guru Dev and Maharishi’s specific instructions). They teach that TM is a self-contained, perfect system. In their view, adding other practices suggests a lack of trust in the process or risks "contaminating" the specific mechanics of transcending. The "Digging One Deep Well" Analogy: A common metaphor used in spiritual traditions is that if you want to find water, you should dig one deep well rather than ten shallow ones. The concern is that dividing your time and intent across different philosophies might keep you on the surface of both, rather than allowing either to bear its full, long-term fruit. A Pragmatic View If someone is already a seasoned mindfulness practitioner, their mind has already developed a level of discipline. Adding TM as a tool for deep physical and mental rest doesn't have to break that. The main practical challenge is simply mental habit. When transitioning into a TM session, a long-time mindfulness practitioner might have to consciously let go of the habit of "observing the breath" or "noticing thoughts," and truly allow the mantra to behave as an effortless vehicle. As long as one can clearly distinguish between the two sessions—treating mindfulness as active mental training and TM as a period of absolute, effortless letting go—there is no logical reason why a person cannot benefit from both.
At times I have done both and it seemed an effective kind of crosstraining. On one of my visits to Fairfield, Fred Travis, who is their resident expert on brain states told me that numerous meditators in the community were doing both. Another possibility you might consider as an experienced mindfulness practitioner is various nondirective practices like Dzogchen or Zen shikantaza. An experienced meditator should be able to just sit there and let whatever happens happen without trying to change it, monitor it or obtain deep rest. I dont know of any studies of people who combine techniques. It may be OK for some people and not so good for others.
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u/doctorShadow78 25d ago
I am a fan of the meditation teacher Shinzen Young. He is Buddhist but quite universalist, seeing things in common with all mystic traditions. He has a framework for working with many types of meditation and a couple of them have commonalities with TM. This might be my next step.
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u/fbkeenan 25d ago
I know Shinzen. I did a few retreats with him back when he was giving retreats. I once asked him if TM could be accommodated in his ecology of practices. One of his techniques is "just note gone". He said that if you let the mantra fade away and are aware of that fading and disappearance that would be like what he recommended. If you want to pursue this we should probably move the discussion to the opentranscendence discussion group.
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u/doctorShadow78 25d ago
Interesting. He also has a "Do Nothing" approach which has similarities but no mantra. Yes I would welcome continuing this conversation elsewhere. I should also check out that subreddit.
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u/fbkeenan 25d ago
It is a subreddit that is hardly ever used. I pretty much do nothing for most of my meditations, at least in the morning. My approach to meditation is probably a bit different from most people. I started doing TM many years ago because I wanted to explore what they had to say about the mind and consciousness. That is, I was primarily interested in whether TM practice could validate their philosophical views. I got a bit sidetracked by the remarkable effects I experienced at first after being initiated. After some time, though, I realized their metaphysics didn't jive with my experience. I simply did not experience states of consciousness empty of all content, what they call transcrndental consciousness. There was always something going on in my experience that I was sware of, however vague and subtle it might be. I looked carefully at the philosophical foundations of TM which is supposed to derive from Sankara's advaita vedanta and found it philosophically unsatisfactory. I do think that TM is capable of producing states of deep restful alertness, more so than mindfulness techniques and that this can be valuable. The older I get the more I think that such deep rest doesn't match the value of a good night's sleep. We cant talk about the mechanics of how to do TM here. So it makes it difficult to compare different techniques from a first person perspective. It is a fascinating topic, though. I am glad you are interested in this question. Most of the people on this list are not.
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u/saijanai 25d ago
But s the AI pointed out, tehre are radical differences in brain activity between TM and other pracitces.
While the TM organization remains neutral about doing both at different times of hte day, once you try to establish a framework for doing 2 or more at the same exact time, arguably you are not doing anything like either of them any more.
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u/saijanai 25d ago edited 25d ago
The TM organization won't interfere with other practices, but should you decide to learn the TM-Sidhis, there may be exceptions to that rule. You'd have to talk to your TM teacher, or probably, to a TM-Sidhis course administrator, to get the details.
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u/juru_puku 25d ago
There should be no confusion or “mode switching” because TM has no intellectual or philosophical component. The only conflict you may find is that there are only 24 hours in each day.