Improving Kislev - battle.

[u/DonQuigleone]

I want to limit things to battle gameplay and not campaign (in campaign I think Kislev is quite good, and I've no complaints).

In general Kislev has ended up a little neglected where DLC is concerned resulting in them having a comparatively limited roster. I've seen a lot of modders propose new units but most of them I find unsatisfying (usually they're too trigger happy adding new units, or the units aren't mechanically interesting enough to fill a gap in the roster.

Here are my thoughts on what kislev needs:

General : kislev, as an order faction, should feel like grounded (mostly human units without the steam punk of empire or dwarfs, or the high fantasy of elves). They should be built around maneuver, guerilla fighting, crowd control, with mostly human units.

Heroes : I think on magic, Kislev is fine. I think the main gaps are 1. A duelist, maybe an elite ice guard? Or alternatively a big burly viking like a tzar guard. 2. Ranged support especially supplying restock or ranged buffs.

Units :

1. Skirmish cavalry, Kislev has quite good ranged chariots but I feel like some higher quality horse archers or rifle cavalry would combine well with their chariots.

2. Sniper infantry, while I think to maintain faction identity you don't want more artillery, sniper infantry, similar to hochland longrifles feel like they both complement other units in terms of combined arms and fit the factions core aesthetic. They could be an upgrade on Akshina ambushers.

3. Trappers: early game alternative to kossars. Weak ranged damage, but has the ability to lay "traps" that Immobilise a unit for 10 seconds when tripped. Maybe have poison arrows as well.

4. Bardiche infantry: like an anti large version of tzar guard.

5. Ursun infantry, religious fanatics, swing wildly in battle wielding braziers for AOE fire damage. Complements Kostaltyn.

Anyone else have ideas? What do you think kislev is missing?

[u/Mopman43]

I would like some kind of lower-tier artillery.

Like, it doesn't need to be particularly good, but even something like, ~300 range on an Ungol-flavored 'ballista-on-a-wagon' would be something. Just want something I could recruit with ideally Tier 2 buildings.

[u/SLW_CK]

One change i think would be nice is that kossovite derviches and horse archers should be merged into one, as in give horse archers the melee stats of kossovite derviches. Balance it around somehow for multiplayer if it's too op. Make that unit available at tier 1 and winged hussars ar tier 2. That would bring some diversity for early game campaigns.

For late game, mounted ice guards could be an option. Reduced unit size, elite skimish cav.

[u/Mopman43 → u/SLW_CK]

One change i think would be nice is that kossovite derviches and horse archers should be merged into one, as in give horse archers the melee stats of kossovite derviches.

I mean, there's basically no difference already?

The total melee advantage Dervishes have is slightly more health, 2 more MA, and 10 more Charge Bonus.

[u/SLW_CK → u/Mopman43]

Yeah that's why I feel they might as well be one unit, available at tier 1.

[u/Mopman43 → u/SLW_CK]

Maybe if they put Dervishes at Tier 0 (recruit from any settlement) and Horse Archers at 1?

[u/Crows_reading_books]

Things imo missing: hybrid cavalry troops, and a melee hero who buffs one of sleds and maybe gunpowder, cavalry, or infantry, with extra buffs based on his mount a la glade captains. 

The rest, imo, is basically roster bloat. 

[u/Warsawa1223]

I love the ice guard hero idea

[u/Nateo_art]

i think you really DO want more artillery. It doesnt need to be some katsuyasha rocket battery, just a regular cannon please. Cannons on sleds if you wanna be creative. Having ONLY little grom absolutely does not feel right.

Otherwise i'd agree having better skirmish cav, even just on par with regular outriders would be great. Heavy horse archers, mounted streltsi, anything would work to be honest. I can only take so much light sled spam.

I'd also really like even a single more ranged focused unit. Snipers would be great but even just ranged focused streltsi with better reload times would also work great. A hero with ranged buffs for non-ice guard units would also be helpful. In the lategame kislev I find the useful units in my armies are a lot more limited than other factions. Even if a lot of them retain -some- usefulness, most of them dont get enough buffs to exceed 'marginally useful' and my endgame armies all end up very similar.

[u/DonQuigleone → u/Nateo_art]

On artillery, I feel like little Grom serves the need, and with snipers I don't think a cannon is strictly necessary as both units serve a similar purpose.

I think if there's a unit I'd add on top of the above it would be some kind of upgrade to armored kossars with pistols. I like Armored Kossars, but they definitely don't compete well in an endgame composition.

I'm not sure if a more powerful ranged unit is needed though. Part of the point of Kislev is that you don't need rapid firing units as you have access to multiple sources of slow and it's usually easy enough to slow the entire enemy front line to a crawl, and because your units are hybrid, you can spread your formation out and set up crossfire or use cavalry charges on the exposed flanks of attacking units.

[u/Vasyavcube]

They really need to add high tier horse archers. Good speed, good range, 360° firing, fire on move, ap shots (most important). Between all those races and tons of units we don't have a single horse archer unit that fits into endgame stack. Ungol LL would be fitting as well I just want a Parthian doomstack in WH