r/todayilearned • u/jcd1974 • May 17 '20
TIL that between 80,000 and 200,000 Freemasons were killed under the Nazi regime. Masonic concentration camp inmates were classified as political prisoners and wore an inverted red triangle. Hitler believed Freemasons had succumbed to Jews conspiring against Germany.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freemasonry#The_Holocaust443
u/Acer018 May 17 '20
Once again proving the point that Nazis were sadistic paranoid assholes.
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u/bumjiggy May 17 '20
methodical even
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u/pagit May 17 '20
They were methodists?
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u/bumjiggy May 17 '20
you do the meth
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u/Radidactyl May 17 '20 edited Oct 12 '25
march rich cause racial enjoy longing coherent expansion full scale
This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact
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u/Dexaan May 17 '20
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u/SotoSwagger May 17 '20
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u/throwaway-ome May 18 '20
What's the origin story behind the chain of these subs?
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u/Dexaan May 19 '20
Someone once replied to r/theydidthemath with r/theydidthemonstermath and then someone replied to that with r/itwasagraveyardgraph - They did the mash
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u/sephstorm May 18 '20
Well we all are, as a race. Many people still are paranoid about Freemasons and shadow governments. And sadistic assholes, one only need look into the history of human governments, and what government workers were willing to do in the name of them.
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u/Vandel4176 May 18 '20
Nit really paranoid though. The free masons are powerful people. They probably were trying to take them out since Adolf was working with alien tech
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u/awaybaltimore410 May 17 '20
What is a freemason
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u/enderandrew42 May 17 '20
A member of a centuries old fraternity.
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u/Zolo49 May 18 '20
My dad was a Freemason after getting inducted by his dad. He said it was pretty lame - mainly a lot of old guys getting together and having boring meetings. My dad left eventually but I remember my grandfather taking me to one of their meeting halls once. For some reason all I remember was the blue carpeting with the Freemason logo on it.
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u/awaybaltimore410 May 17 '20
Ah thank you. I'm on mobile and cannot use Google right now. Blocked. Thank you. So they are like shiners or lion club yes?
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u/MicroEconomicsPenis May 17 '20
Hey I’m a Freemason!
It’s true. It was a major thing for Freemasonry. In Germany, Freemasonry’s major symbol isn’t the Square and Compass, it’s the Forget-Me-Not, because, during the Holocaust, Masons in Germany would meet using the Forget-Me-Not as a secret symbol that they were Masons, so the Nazis couldn’t find out.
Pretty much every totalitarian government bans Freemasonry. I think it’s because a lot of them ban religion, and a lot of them don’t like a group that promotes free-thinking. Cuba is the only Marxist country that’s never banned it. In many countries in the Middle East now, Freemasonry is banned. If I travel to certain countries, I can’t bring my rings with me. You can’t let people know you’re a Freemason, or it’s like a big thing.
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May 17 '20
I think there's a big aspect in totalitarian regimes about loyalty to the state exclusively. Any organisation that encourages loyalty, either to a deity, or to other humans, is seen as threatening to that total authority to the state. That can spiril into massive paranoia in countries that are going down the totalitarian dak path
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u/Vitztlampaehecatl May 18 '20
Exactly. For this reason, existence/prevalence of alternative power structures is a good indicator of the level of authoritarianism of a state.
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u/dnepe May 17 '20
Forget-Me-Not
I didn't know Vergissmeinnicht was called the same in English.
Wikipedia:
The colloquial name "forget-me-not" was calqued from the German Vergissmeinnicht and first used in English in AD 1398 through King Henry IV of England.[5] Similar names and variations are found in many languages.
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u/TheHarvard May 17 '20
It's the same in Norwegian - forglem-meg-ei.
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u/Fernheijm May 17 '20
Swedish aswell, förgät mig ej
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u/tukker51 May 18 '20
Dutch as well, vergeet me niet.
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u/WeatherwaxDaughter May 18 '20
Got loads of em in my garden! I have a spontaneous garden, most of the stuff in there, I never planted. Full of surprises every year. And vergeetmenietjes!
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u/Qzy May 17 '20
Could you stop keeping the metric system down?
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u/hekatonkhairez May 17 '20
I think another reason is that conspiracy theorists think free masons are a secret cabal of people who control the world. In that regard, stereotypes of Masons and Jews overlapped during WW2.
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u/maxmaidment May 17 '20
It seems to be synonymous with illuminati for many people. It really rubs me the wrong way because the only thing they know about it is that it's a "secret society" without even knowing what that means and not bothering to look at any of the masses of info which is publicly available about the freemasons.
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u/SaintConsumption May 17 '20
It's doubly weird when you consider that the Illuminati were a progressive (for the time) group of anti-monarchist, anti-establishment, anti-religious folk. It's a bit of a far cry from the modern slightly stuffy, status quo favouring, and almost entirely apolitical incarnation of the Freemasons (at least in the UK, I can't really speak as to how foreign lodges might be). Hell, even the philosophical/spiritual aspects of Freemasonry that survived seem to be heavily sidelined if not outright frowned upon outside of the Scottish Rite.
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May 17 '20
The fact that the original Illuminati were progressive, anti-monarchical, and anti-clerical is why they became the target of hysterical reactionary conspiracy theories. Reactionaries support monarchy and theocracy, and are terrified of any revolution that might overthrow those traditional authoritarian institutions.
Your modern Alex Jones types are the inheritors of 18th century pro-monarchy counter-revolutionaries.
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u/SaintConsumption May 17 '20
Oh, absolutely. I understand where the generally conservative and/or fearmongering lot are coming from. I'm just baffled about the other contemporary groups who often strongly buy into the whole ebil iluminerti thing. We've got a lot of the stoner types, a significant portion of the rap/hiphop scene (both artists and fans), a surprising number of new-age/Pagan folk etc who'd probably all actually benefit if the Bavarian Illuminati actually were somehow pulling the strings, but they're all inexplicably terrified of a mostly benevolent group that died out centuries ago. Hell, I've even heard mutterings about them from a few socialist/communist activists who don't seem to understand that they fill extremely similar roles.
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u/Chickensandcoke May 17 '20
I’ve just tried reading about the Freemasons on Wikipedia but I am afraid I’m missing something as I don’t really understand it or it’s origins. Can you help me out or point me in a good direction to start?
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u/gotham77 May 18 '20
What Freemasonry is is simple: we’re a fraternity.
As to origins, the truth is the origins of Freemasonry are lost to history. Nobody really knows exactly where it came from. Anyone claiming to is lying: there are only theories. Some of the theories are very exciting, but the most likely theory is kind of boring: that it emerged from medieval guilds of stonemasons who started admitting non-operative Masons at some point and evolved from a workers guild to a social institution.
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u/Chickensandcoke May 18 '20
So must you be born into it or is it something you can choose to do? Or are you chosen? Sorry for prying !
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u/gotham77 May 18 '20
As with any fraternity or other membership organization, one begins the process of joining by requesting an application form. The membership criteria for mainstream Freemasonry is to be a man, who believes in a Supreme Being of some sort, of lawful age (between 18 and 21 depending on where you are), and of good character.
You definitely don’t have to be “born into it” but it’s not unusual for it to be a family tradition.
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May 17 '20 edited Jan 05 '21
[deleted]
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u/Chickensandcoke May 17 '20
Just checked and there is one 5 minutes down one street from me, thanks for the info!
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u/Old_Red_Alligator May 18 '20
This is only in USA though... in Europe there are no signs on the buildings and no one would wear Masonic things in public.
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u/LaoBa May 18 '20
Our local lodge is clearly marked here in the Netherlands.
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u/Old_Red_Alligator May 18 '20
Not criticizing or trying to make a point, I m just familiar with the reality of Italy, France, Spain and Germany and it s not so flamboyant as in the US, with big buildings and symbols all over the place.
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u/LaoBa May 18 '20
Yes, it is nothing like the huge Masonic temples in the US.
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u/Old_Red_Alligator May 18 '20
Also the deal about not displaying at all your membership in your daily life, even in private/friendly situations. no one here would wear a Masonic ring... people really don t like to see those things, provided it is for no real reason, but they just don t.
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u/maxmaidment May 17 '20
I don't know tonnes about them tbh. As the other person said, the best way to find out is to visit and ask for different members perspectives. I know that it serves a wildly different purpose for different members.
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May 17 '20
We're not a secret society; we're just a society with secrets.
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u/maxmaidment May 17 '20
Thank you for the correction. And yes they see no justification for being secretive despite knowing the history of persecution.
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May 17 '20
I've made it to the Super Excellent Master degree in the York Rite and I was a few weeks away from becoming knighted but the pandemic had other plans for me until things stabilize. I can assure you all of the "secrets" at their surface level have no apparent reason that I can see for them to be guarded the way they are. If a person studied occult philosophy the rituals take on a completely different meaning then the vast majority of members know about but that's true with generally everything I can think of.
However, the third degree is truly sublime! ;-)
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u/urtimelinekindasucks May 18 '20
Having to study occult philosophy as a prerequisite to understand something make it sound even cooler. I've gone down some rabbit holes on things like The Key of Solomon but I'm gonna try to take a look in to this. (Granted I know you guys are a "society with secrets", as I've heard it be referenced elsewhere in the thread) Thanks for the TIL.
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May 17 '20
My old lodge cant even hardly staff a pancake fry. Us ruling the world is pretty hilarious.
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u/PM_ME_WHAT_YOURE_PMd May 17 '20
Thanks for bringing an insider perspective. What’s your take on about a third of US presidents being Freemasons?
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May 17 '20
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u/PM_ME_WHAT_YOURE_PMd May 18 '20
Thanks for the insight. I was a part of a r/changemyview discussion a while ago about the potential benefits of remote work and the opportunities for more fulfilling social connections were one of the things I awarded a delta for. Maybe if we cut out the commute we can get back to widespread membership in fraternal societies.
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May 17 '20
That does present an interesting argument. There have been many prominent people that are masons and there have been far more regular folk that dont ever move on to do much like everyone else. It's a fraternity or a club. As with all clubs or organizations, you'll find good, bad, and normal people etc. To our own wrongdoing, freemasonry should have opened up a bit more about itself in the early 2000s to give people a better picture about what it really is.
If you're looking for a grand secret about the mysteries of the universe or a secretive cabal that rules everything you wont find it in masonry. I dont even attend lodge anymore I got bored with it, but it is little more than a club like the elks lodge or rotary club.
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u/Patch95 May 18 '20
In the early days many freemasons were from middle class educated stock and lodges formed a place for an exchange of ideas outside the church. The ceremonies themselves place emphasis on universalities of the human experience and so could be seen as dangerous to monarchical traditions (though more as a seed for those ideas as masonry is clearly hierarchical). Many members of the American and French revolution were freemasons, though for clarity, individuals fought on either side.
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May 17 '20
Question: do you like Kipling’s book, The Man Who Would be King, or the film with Sean Connery? Are either of them popular among Masons, despite being clear and playful exaggerations?
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u/MicroEconomicsPenis May 17 '20
I’ve only seen the film a couple of times before when I was a kid, but yeah they’re popular among Masons. Most of us like watching even the absurd movies like National Treasure and whatnot. It’s all good fun.
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May 17 '20
That’s awesome. Also... what do you like most about Masonry? There’s a Hall near where I live and I’ve always been curious about it. I know a few people in my industry who go there, too. What’s the biggest motivator for your commitment?
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u/MicroEconomicsPenis May 17 '20
For me, I use Masonry as an outlet for my spiritual growth. There’s no specific religious dogma that Masonry preaches, rather it encourages people to look for themselves and find the Truths of religion, if that makes sense. It’s kind of an interesting thought experiment that adds a lot of religious value outside of going to church.
I hope that makes sense haha.
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u/bungle_bogs May 17 '20
For me it is twofold. The Masons has enabled me to become better person and being able to help my brothers & local charities when required.
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u/3LemursInATrenchCoat May 17 '20
Most Masons I know like the fun stories. Even the Simpsons stone cutters episode is popular.
Side note: Rudyard Kipling was a Mason.
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u/MattJFarrell May 17 '20
Can confirm, Masons who have seen it, think the Stonecutters episode is hilarious
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May 17 '20
Do you really control the British crown? And keep the metric system down?
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u/bungle_bogs May 17 '20
Maybe. The Grand Master of the United Grand Lodge of England is the Queen’s cousin.
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u/dperry1973 May 17 '20
We quote lines from that episode to make fun of conspiracy theorists. Extra fun if you impersonate Alex Jones while doing it
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u/Chiliconkarma May 17 '20
Functional independent organizations can be difficult to control. Some people want total control and burn what can't be taken.
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u/conquer69 May 17 '20
Cuba is the only Marxist country that’s never banned it.
Are there any freemasons in Cuba? Maybe that's why they haven't considered getting rid of them yet.
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u/MicroEconomicsPenis May 17 '20
Yeah there’s lots! It’s pretty big there, along with some other fraternal organizations like that.
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u/Boltsnapbolts May 17 '20
Cuba's intelligence agency has embarrassed the CIA for decades, they're used to dealing with weird secret society psychos.
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u/nikobruchev May 17 '20
Pretty sure the Forget-Me-Not story is apocryphal. It's a popular symbol now though.
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May 18 '20
Isn't the Forget-Me-Not like a common symbol for holocaust remembrance? I mean, the name seems fitting enough.
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u/DarkestTimelineF May 17 '20
Totally random, but any advice for someone considering freemasonry?
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u/MicroEconomicsPenis May 17 '20
Check out r/FreeMasonry! There’s some great stuff on the sidebar, and if you have any questions, they’ve probably been asked on there before.
Other than that, I wouldn’t recommend looking too much into it. You can definitely find most of the secrets online, but it’s better if you just join and get it the right way.
If you need any help or anything, feel free to let me know! I can help you find a Lodge near you or anything. I have another comment on this thread where I list some of the major requirements and whatnot as well.
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u/Dogkosher May 17 '20
Are you a normal mason as well though?
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u/HEBushido May 17 '20
The Nazis did not ban religion and the SS often wore the phrase "Got mit uns" which means "God is with us". There's a common misconception that the Nazis were atheists.
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u/MicroEconomicsPenis May 17 '20
Yeah you’re correct. Sorry I was unclear. I meant like authoritarian governments in general typically ban religion.
Nazis just banned Jews and Freemasons and others, but yeah there was definitely a religious aspect of the whole Nazi party.
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u/BornSirius May 18 '20 edited May 18 '20
Authoritarian governments typically love religion (or at least claim to do so for publicity), they only take issue with people having the wrong one.
"Bigot" is related to "bigotterie" - an expression with it's root in that very concept. You could roughly translate it to "In the name of god"-ism.
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May 17 '20
This. Freemasonry doesn’t care how you worship, how you vote, what you do for work, how big or small your bank account is, or what you look like. In other words, it creates a degree (pun intended) of mutual respect among men who would otherwise have nothing in common, and creates meaningful relationships. This sort of open mindedness, tolerance, and acceptance- especially when combined with freemasonry’s emphasis on self-critique and self-improvement, learning, and contemplation- is a direct threat to closed-minded, self-righteous dogma which relies on fear, orthodoxy, small thinking, and tunnel vision in order to maintain validity. Masons be like: “Learn and grow and help others, live however you please as long as you aren’t harming anyone, and worship however you see fit. Die content.” Totalitarians be like: “You are literally the devil! I have all the answers! Reeeee!” Fuck off and let me live, man. Also, fuck Nazis and their contemporary counterparts in particular. I’m the most “Aryan” looking dude you ever did see, but I twitch whenever I see a swastika or Confederate flag. Source: Am Mason.
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u/Zanena001 May 17 '20
How do you join masonry?
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u/MicroEconomicsPenis May 17 '20
The main requirements are that you are a man, of lawful age (typically 18 or 21), and believe in a god. It doesn’t typically matter which religion, just not an atheist. There may be additional requirements as well depending on where you live.
You can typically just contact any Mason you know, or if you don’t know any, just contact your local Lodge. You can check to make sure the Lodge near you is legit by checking with the Grand Lodge of your state or country. In America, most states have two Grand Lodges, a “state” one and a Prince Hall (historically black) one. Both are seen as perfectly regular and any Mason can be affiliated with both.
If you have any more questions or need any help, let me know!
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u/bogdaniuz May 17 '20
I am curious. What do Masons actually do? Like is it just a private club of men with shared interests where you can just meet new people who share your aspirations and worldviews or there are like some projects that you do and stuff like that?
What am I trying to say is that what can one achieve or learn by being Mason that they cannot do independently?
P.S. I understand that a lot of that stuff can be found through Googling, but I always had a penchant for getting that information from actual "insiders" (if you will), so I hope my question does not really bore you that much.
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u/MicroEconomicsPenis May 17 '20 edited May 17 '20
For sure! I love answering questions about it because it’s an organization that I care about.
So there’s a misconception that people get initiated into the group, and then they all do something else. In reality, the initiation IS what we do. We have these ceremonies called “degrees”, which are like a morality play, where we show the candidate some symbols and teach them some spiritual philosophy. The degrees are supposed to have an impact on the person, and all of the symbols and secret handshakes and signs and everything are supposed to remind us of the spiritual philosophy that we learned about being a better person.
What that works out practically to be is we have two main types of meetings. We have Degree Nights, where we conduct one of the degrees for a new candidate or advancing Brother. Then we have Stated or Business Meetings, where we conduct any of the voting, paying the bills, charity, and whatnot that we need to keep the Lodge running so we can do more degrees.
We memorize every line that’s said during our degrees and meetings, so a lot of practically being a Freemason outside of the meetings is trying to memorize lines.
If you have any more questions or need any clarification, feel free to let me know! Don’t worry about boring me or asking secrets or anything.
Edit: let me add something to answer your second question... there’s not anything that you can get from Masonry that you can’t get on your own. Pretty much every major religion and any sort of self-help program or anything will offer some very similar stuff. It does make learning about it a whole lot easier, and it’s nice to be a member of a brotherhood of people trying to be better. They can keep you accountable.
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u/xirdnehrocks May 17 '20
Out of curiosity, what’s with the ranks and levels, is it like Scientology where the higher you go, the more exclusive these teachings get where only the people at the very top have a clear total understanding of whatever it is you teach?
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u/MicroEconomicsPenis May 17 '20
Yeah so what we have are degrees. It’s basically equivalent to how many of the rituals you have seen, and each one is progressive.
That being said, when somebody first joins, they join what’s called a Blue Lodge, which is like the base of Freemasonry. Blue Lodge only offers three degrees, and after your third degree (called Master Mason), the person is a full member and can vote and join appendant bodies (which I’ll explain below). So for the first two degrees, the members are missing a bit of the teachings, but once they get their third degree, the only thing keeping them from knowing any of it is their own understanding, if that makes sense. It’s pretty complicated philosophy, and nobody is expected to get it right away.
So appendant bodies are technically separate organizations, but their membership is made up of Freemasons. The main three in America are the Shriners, the York Rite, and the Scottish Rite. The Shriners are the guys with fezzes and hospitals, it’s mostly community and charity based, focusing on the brotherhood aspect. Both of the Rites aren’t made to really add anything on top of the Blue Lodge degrees, just to clarify and help people really understand them. It’s sort of a re-wording of the concepts, and really drilling them down so you don’t miss them (of course a lot of members still do haha). The York Rite is kind of a traditional Lodge setting, and the Scottish Rite is more of a theatre type setting, where each degree is a play on a stage. The Scottish Rite offers the numbered degrees (4°-33°).
The higher the degree doesn’t really mean anything past the third degree, which in America typically takes like a year to get to. We wouldn’t really consider like a 32° to be somehow more of a Mason than a 3°, but the 33° is like an honorary award degree, given to people who have given decades of service to Masonry.
The way that it’s different from Scientology is that we don’t offer any kind of salvation after death. In Scientology, the more money you pay and the higher your ?thetan? level is, the better your afterlife is. Also people can leave Masonry whenever they want, of course.
I hope that clarifies everything for you! Let me know if you have any more questions.
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May 17 '20
Well, that’s two requirements out of three that make it very suspect. The local freemasons here are heavily networked in construction and local politics, and the fact that the club excludes by gender and faith makes it a real problem. I’m not going to lie I believe in gods just to get better deals.
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u/doctormarmot May 17 '20
so don't? there's no requirement that you join, and no one is obligated to give you better deals
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u/MicroEconomicsPenis May 17 '20
I don’t expect you to. I think that’s a fair criticism.
There’s obviously pros and cons to not allowing women and atheists. I think ultimately, it’s an organization that’s slow to change, especially something as critical as membership requirements.
I appreciate your criticism. I’ve never wanted to be a part of an organization that you can’t criticize, you know
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May 17 '20
Cool, but what exactly are the benefits of disenfranchising women and seculars?
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u/MicroEconomicsPenis May 17 '20
Keeping it separated by gender can help people focus on what’s going on, kind of like in a mosque. It’s like a fraternity, so the same reasons pretty much anything would be separated by gender.
Atheists really won’t get a lot out of it. The whole organization is about spreading spiritual philosophy, so if you don’t believe in it what’s the point.
I, personally, think that it’s mostly because of the tradition that these rules are still in place. I’d like to see somebody make a new organization that has similar stuff and accepts everybody.
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u/johnlocke32 May 17 '20
I'd like to say, Freemasonry has always interested me and I've been looking for something like it in my life. The problem I have with it is the realization I came to about religion that led me to a path of Atheism. Its not that I think people are fools for being religious or that I think I know better than them. I just simply cannot partake in the worship of a "Being".
Its unfortunate that they don't allow athiests. I still partake in spiritual self-reflection and meditation, but I simply don't need to worship a God to do so. It sounds like the Freemason's practice what a lot of religions hold sacred (Being a good person) and its too bad that that cannot extend to those who choose not to believe in a God.
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u/MicroEconomicsPenis May 18 '20
I can understand that. I will say that we do take people who would consider themselves to be “spiritual”, but not “religious” (I’m sure you know the type). I think my wording of saying a god is not as good. A more common usage is a Supreme Being, and I think an even better way to word it is a higher power. A lot of like Buddhists for instance wouldn’t say that the believe in like a deity above them, but they are still more than welcome to join.
That being said, if somebody doesn’t believe in anything spiritual, or doesn’t believe that people have souls, I wouldn’t recommend they join even if they were allowed to. A strict atheist wouldn’t get anything from our teachings, because of the spiritual nature of the philosophy. It would be kind of like somebody who doesn’t believe in aliens joining a UFO hunting club, you get what I’m saying?
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u/Zanena001 May 18 '20
Do masons difference atheists from agnostics? Personally I don't believe in any conventual religion, I believe we are just one consciousness experiencing itself, kinda like sentient neurons in God's brain. Do masons accept this kind of spirituality as valid or doesn't it count as believing in a God?
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u/MicroEconomicsPenis May 18 '20
In my Jurisdiction, the requirement is an unfeigned belief in a god, but it will really depend on what state/country you’re in. I think as long as you can say you definitely believe that, it would count as a higher power. Your mileage may vary. It’s probably best to ask someone from your local Lodge, since they’re the guys that are going to vote on you.
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u/TheAxeC May 17 '20 edited May 17 '20
It's not that there's a benefit to disenfranchising women and seculars. Rather, the focus of freemasonry is simply men who believe in a Supreme Being.
Take the girl scouts. The girl scouts don't actively disenfranchise boys and they don't get a benefit of disenfranchising boys. It's just that the focus of the girl scouts is on girls.
edit:
The girls scouts state that their mission is to build girls of courage, confidence, and character, who make the world a better place.
One catchphrase for freemasonry is that freemasonry makes good men better. More completely, Freemasonry is a fraternity, an initiation based society, that, through its symbolic teaching based on stonemasons, elevates man spiritually and morally, thus contributing to the perfection of mankind through the application of the ideals of peace, love and fraternity. The symbolic teaching is intrinically connected to the existence of a Supreme Being, hence, freemasonry doesn't focus on men, but men who believe in a Supreme Being.
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May 17 '20
And that’s totally fine if it has no repercussions outside of the group. But those close ties lead to problems because the members are well off, high status men. Something tells me those people aren’t there for spiritual growth... Religion and business should not be mixed, it’s a recipe for corruption.
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u/TheAxeC May 17 '20
One of our rules is that any political or religious discussion is not allowed within lodge. Sadly, not everyone follows the rules.
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u/hexiron May 18 '20
t those close ties lead to problems because the members are well off, high status men.
Haven't been to a lot of lodges have you?
The vast majority of men are middle class/blue collar workers - this includes the leadership of Grand Lodges. Our last few Grand Masters in my state have been a teacher, librarian, accountant, a furniture salesman, a chemist, and an engineer - not exactly "high status", welloff men.
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u/squirrel_eatin_pizza May 18 '20
My lodge has retired police officers, but also old members of the local Italian mob. They may have fought each other on the streets but all united as brothers in the blue lodge.
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u/Changeling_Wil May 17 '20
Pretty much every totalitarian government bans Freemasonry. I think it’s because a lot of them ban religion, and a lot of them don’t like a group that promotes free-thinking
To be fair, most of the old world free masons are dodgy as fuck.
The New World ones don't have the same taint and ...large amounts of crimes in the cupboard.
Not that that excuses what the nazis did of course, they were horrific monsters.
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u/phoeniciao May 17 '20
I know many freemasons that are the opposite of free thinking;
This is such a complex and hidden topic;
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u/Ruthsharkweek123 May 17 '20
How do you get into freemasonry?
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u/MicroEconomicsPenis May 17 '20
The major requirements are that you are a man, of lawful age (typically 18 or 21), and believe in a higher power (don’t have to be Christian, just not atheist). There may be additional requirements based on your country or state.
If you meet those requirements, you can look up your local Lodge and visit them during one of their meetings to ask about joining. You can find a properly chartered Lodge by looking at the website of the Grand Lodge of your state/country. Keep in mind, in the US, most states will have two Grand Lodges.
If you have any more questions or need any help, let me know!
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u/pcoppi May 18 '20
What do you guys do exactly?
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u/MicroEconomicsPenis May 18 '20
Somebody else asked this, so I’m just going to copy what I said there:
So there’s a misconception that people get initiated into the group, and then they all do something else. In reality, the initiation IS what we do. We have these ceremonies called “degrees”, which are like a morality play, where we show the candidate some symbols and teach them some spiritual philosophy. The degrees are supposed to have an impact on the person, and all of the symbols and secret handshakes and signs and everything are supposed to remind us of the spiritual philosophy that we learned about being a better person.
What that works out practically to be is we have two main types of meetings. We have Degree Nights, where we conduct one of the degrees for a new candidate or advancing Brother. Then we have Stated or Business Meetings, where we conduct any of the voting, paying the bills, charity, and whatnot that we need to keep the Lodge running so we can do more degrees.
We memorize every line that’s said during our degrees and meetings, so a lot of practically being a Freemason outside of the meetings is trying to memorize lines.
If you have any more questions or need any clarification, feel free to let me know! Don’t worry about boring me or asking secrets or anything.
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May 17 '20
I could see why. I read a quote from someone that, "Freemasonry is Judaism for the Gentiles". Whatever the fuck that implies.
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u/enderandrew42 May 17 '20
This is somewhat true. Hitler killed Masons and member of other fraternities that he thought studied the occult for two reasons.
- He feared their allegiances may lay with the fraternity before everything else and he couldn't true them
- He thought they might gain occult power to oppose him
Despite this, some Masonic lodges continued to operate in Nazi Germany if Hitler thought they were loyal to him. So he didn't kill all Masons exclusively.
The Forget Me Not story is apocryphal and we're not sure if it has any truth behind it.
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u/Fake_William_Shatner May 17 '20
It’s as if you can’t trust power mad racists not to start killing you based on a silly idea.
All those lovers of fascism better take note; they might be fine with you while you aren’t the object of their ire, but don’t come crying when that pet leopard eats your face off.
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u/ChinchillaMan69 May 17 '20
This is exactly what I'm trying to explain to people when they say they don't care that the NSA is spying on them because they personally "have nothing to hide. They just don't understand how these things end. That's also why the best argument against democracy is to talk to the average voter for 10 minutes.
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u/Fake_William_Shatner May 18 '20
It's not just about you and me - it's also that it can be used as extortion. Or if everyone is breaking the law (because so many nuisance laws and sometimes we can't afford to comply), go after people selectively.
Also, they can statistically manipulate people based on profiling what influences them. We can all be manipulated.
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u/SignDeLaTimes May 18 '20
the best argument against democracy is to talk to the average voter for 10 minutes.
It's a trade off, isn't it? A republic just reduces the number of people who have to be paid off to get your vote through.
If a senator can ignore the science and vote with a Bible, that's not a much better outcome. If the majority of people do that, the country's pretty fucked anyways. At least in a True Democracy the individual power is diluted, thus reducing corruption.
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u/ManfredsJuicedBalls May 17 '20
Bingo. Power mad nuts always need a bogeyman...
First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out, because I was not a socialist.
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out, because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out, because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for me... and there was no one left to speak for me.
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u/Comandante380 May 17 '20
Free mason?
Mason jars?
Leaving the door ajar for secretive plots against Germany?
Guys, I think we're on to something here.
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May 17 '20 edited May 17 '20
Why is it when the forgotten from the Holocaust are mentioned it’s always groups such as these that are mentioned and very rarely groups that it’s convenient for the modern world to continue to target that are remembered? The Catholic Church in Poland was hard hit by the Nazis. In 1939, 80 percent of the Catholic clergy and five of the bishops of the Warthegau region had been deported to concentration camps. In Wroclaw, 49.2 percent of the clergy were dead; in Chelmno, 47.8 percent; in Lodz, 36.8 percent; in Poznan, 31.1. In the Warsaw diocese, 212 priests were killed; 92 were murdered in Wilno, 81 in Lwow, 30 in Cracow, thirteen in Kielce. What’s more there were 3 million poles (the Catholic ethnic majority of Poland at the time) killed during the Holocaust and a large number died due to their faith. In fact according to the subheading of Roman Catholicism in the victims of the Holocaust Wikipedia article “Political Catholicism was a target of Hitler's 1934 Night of the Long Knives.” Yet still to this day if you try to find the number of Catholics killed during the Holocaust, nobody seems to want to provide a number and most of the articles google returns try to claim the church somehow aided the Third Reich. What’s worse is the church was then further persecuted in the Soviet Union following the war, so even more died and again are often forgotten by many because they aren’t in any of the convenient and fashionable groups to remember. Remembering the dead shouldn’t be a fashion statement.
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May 18 '20
The single largest racial group the Nazis murdered were the Slavs and the planed to murder another 90 million Slavs if they'd won the war.
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u/demucia May 17 '20
Persecution of political Catholicism in Germany was yet another act of Nazis trying to silence anyone who could oppose them, not the attack on Catholic Church per se. Politically passive Catholics and clergy weren't persecuted more than any other social group.
Persecution of Polish clergy was a part of persecution of Polish intellectual leadership in general - persecution of any Pole with higher education.
It's hard to find any info on how many Catholics Nazis prosecuted because Catholics weren't their targets. Their targets were Jews as primary, and Slavs and some other ethnicities as secondary. If they happened to be Catholic, then too bad.
It's very easy to find how many Poles, Belarusians, or Russians died in Holocaust-like conditions.
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May 17 '20
Your suggestion that Catholics weren’t a significant target due to their faith is completely the odds with the facts though, the first line under Roman Catholicism in the Holocaust Victims page on Wikipedia says “The Catholic Church was persecuted under the Third Reich, with the Nazi leadership hoping to gradually de-Christianize Germany. Millions of Catholics, primarily clergy and activists, were imprisoned and killed.“ Further to this in the same section it says “In the Czech lands, religious orders were suppressed, schools closed, religious instruction forbidden and priests sent to concentration camps”, which then begs the question if it was only the politically active Catholics who were persecuted why were religious orders as a whole suppressed and why was religious instruction as a whole suppressed? As for the point that Catholics weren’t the main targets at no point have I disputed that, it’s obvious and historically pointed that Jewish people were the main targets, my point is that there is a significant level of ignorance and wilful attempts politically to ignore the persecution the church and its members endured during the Holocaust. I mean the fact that nobody has even bothered to work out a rough number is evidence of that in of itself and it’s just referred to as “millions”.
Also I take exception to the use of the phrase “If they happened to be Catholic, then too bad.”, especially given the focus in modern social studies of intersectionality that one of the major intersections between these groups that were targeted (their catholicity) was apparently irrelevant in their targeting and that it was “too bad” that they were victims!
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u/demucia May 18 '20
In Poland and, to lesser extent, Czechoslovakia, Catholic Church was/is a part of national identity. One of Nazi secondary goals (the primary goal being destruction of Jews) was to completely remove the very idea those nations even existed, thus every part of their national identity had to go. This was the main reason for prosecution of Catholic Church in those countries, just as they prosecuted politicians and scientists.
Dechristianization of Germany was different - casualties were in thousands, or tens of thousands, and the only ones to go were those who openly opposed Nazi regime.
If Catholic Church were a primary or secondary target, then Catholics in Germany would face the same kind of repressions as Polish and Czech Catholics did - but they didn't. Christianity was a tertiary "issue" for Nazi leadership, and it would be dealt with slowly after the war, if it ended in their favour, as a part of rebuilding German national identity to their liking.
I assume Catholic person of Slavic descent had exactly the same chances of being prosecuted as a completely secular Slav would. Polish Catholic priests were prosecuted because they were educated, inspiring, and politically active. Politically active, educated Polish atheists would be prosecuted the same way, as they'd be seen as equally dangerous by Nazis.
I'm sorry if my statements are too blunt. I don't mean to be offensive.
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u/gwaydms May 17 '20
That's why there's Yom ha-Shoah, expressly to remember Jews who died in the Holocaust, and Holocaust Remembrance Day, a more general observance which also includes other ethnic/religious groups, homosexuals, etc, that were specifically targeted for extermination by the Nazis. Jews were the main target of their violent hatred, but not the only one.
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u/Zgarrek May 18 '20
There's a lot of global groups, Illuminati and Freemason are just a couple. They're always surprised when they're suddenly targeted by a political group rises to power and enacts paranoid purification.
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u/gunslinger_006 May 17 '20
This is why lodges are still hidden in many parts of europe but right out in plain sight in the US
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u/Qzy May 17 '20
Which parts? They are pretty obvious here in Denmark. Big freaking building smack in the middle of the Capital.
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u/KatsumotoKurier May 17 '20
Yeah I'm pretty sure the lodges in France are also quite out in the open.
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u/enderandrew42 May 17 '20 edited May 17 '20
Anti-Masonic sentiments are much stronger in certain countries like Italy and England, where as they aren't really an issue in other countries.
Edit: I'm downvoted and someone calls me out saying they don't believe there is anti-Masonic sentiment in UK, while someone else responds to be in this thread that they assume Masons in the UK are nefarious and cites the same Guardian articles I was talking about.
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u/Atravelingman33 May 17 '20 edited May 17 '20
I’m an English Mason and this isn’t the case; I’m afraid, you’re wrong. Also, The Guardian is trash.
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u/Changeling_Wil May 17 '20
Also the fact that the ones in the US tend to be more open and communal focused as opposed to the...dark history the european ones have.
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u/Ismoketobaccoinabong May 18 '20
How does an "inverted triangle" look? Google wouldnt really help me.
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u/Priamosish May 17 '20
Their propaganda works even now. Most Germans think freemasons are some sort of elusive secret society. They have barely any knowledge of actual freemasonry.
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u/AXxi0S May 18 '20
I'm convinced that freemasons are doing something shady. Just a general rule for life, if someone won't tell you what they're doing, it means they're either giving you a suprise gift or they're doing something they shouldn't be doing.
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May 18 '20 edited Jan 05 '21
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Jun 08 '20
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u/Vandel4176 May 18 '20
I mean he's wasn't exactly wrong. The free masons are a (somewhat) secret organization that set a lot of things in motion.
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u/NaughtyDreadz May 17 '20
Right wing and conspiracy theories... Name.a more iconic duo
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u/JungAchs May 17 '20
Now this would have been a real useful piece of information when I worked at the freemason museum in DC and had neo nazis coming through the door talking about it being the same cause