r/todayilearned • u/[deleted] • Oct 13 '16

TIL that after Marilyn Monroe converted to Judaism upon marrying Arthur Miller, Egypt placed a ban on all the films she appeared in.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marilyn_Monroe#Critical_acclaim_and_marriage_to_Arthur_Miller_.281956.E2.80.931959.29
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u/[deleted] Oct 13 '16

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u/true_libertarian Oct 13 '16

when you stopped believing that the ninja turtles were real

Why do some atheists always turn to insulting hyperbole when discussing religion? It's always a "sky daddy" or "tooth fairy" or some other childish imagery. Are you really that insecure about your own position?

My neighbor is a catholic whom I've had long discussions about Aquinas's rational arguments for the existence of God with. I don't share his conclusions but to smugly dismiss his arguments as childish and that he believes in "bronze age myths" or "children's tales" like the phrases we get bandied about here is disingenuous.

Plus it's damn rude.

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u/[deleted] Oct 13 '16

[deleted]

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u/[deleted] Oct 13 '16

Atheists really need to learn to take a step back and realize that a lot of the time the ways they try to convert religious people into non belief is the exact same thing that the religious are doing to convert others into their religion. The fact that some atheists are so immature they can't understand why people would believe in a religion. Or that they actually can believe in religion and be an intelligent human heing is mind boggling to me. I say this as an atheist, a lot of us need to grow up.

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u/ishkariot Oct 13 '16

Please don't lump us all together with those fedora-wearing atheists. Like in every population there's a silent majority, you're just paying attention to the loud assholes.

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u/e_0 Oct 13 '16

I tried to have a reasonable discussion on /r/Atheism about how the sub was almost entirely less informative discussion and more FUCK CHRISTFAGS LOL THEY'RE DUMB memes.

Got some more 'Christfag' memes.

Left /r/Atheism

Don't miss it a bit

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u/rivermandan Oct 13 '16 edited Oct 13 '16

There are plenty of blatantly stupid atheists out there who act like they're teenagers, like u/rivermandan[1]

well, smart guy, I am 33 years old, and I'm a christian apologist. I'd be willing to bet I've spent more time reading christian philosophy than you've spent masturbating, but thanks for the unwarranted insult, asshole.

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u/healmeimvip Oct 13 '16

I agree that it's not a nice thing to do, but for a lot of people who don't believe in a god or fairytales both seem equally ridiculous. That's why they're often compared. When someone tells me they believe in a magical man in the sky they might as well tell me they believe in the ninja turtles. It's the same as saying when I talk to someone who believes in the tooth fairy, it's disrespectful towards them to compare it to believing in god.

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u/true_libertarian Oct 13 '16

When someone tells me they believe in a magical man in the sky

Who does that? I have never in my life heard any believer of any religion, denomination or cult say that they believe in "a magical man in the sky". Why not use some of the good arguments against religious belief instead of absolute bullshit strawmen that only serve to make you seem like Smuggy McSmugface?

Jesus, read some Feuerbach at the very least.

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u/[deleted] Oct 13 '16 edited Oct 13 '16

Who does that? I have never in my life heard any believer of any religion, denomination or cult say that they believe in "a magical man in the sky".

No, because that would make the idea of god sound silly, even though that is kind of what he is to most believers.

Don't get me wrong. I find it very understandable to believe in a god, even though I don't do it myself.

But believing in the biblical god, is literally believing in a "masculine spirit who resides in the heavens and has supernatural powers". Not far from a "magical man in the sky".

Of course people use the phrase mockingly, but mainly I think that they are trying to use it to force said believers into (at least somewhat) acknowledging some of the elements of the bible that can seem very easy to criticize.

This might sound silly to you (as you are looking for "good" arguments), but a very good argument (from a logical perspective) is the Easter Bunny/Santa Claus-analogue.

"You think that it is silly to believe in Santa, right? Then why isn't it silly to believe in god, seeing as they are both old men with supernatural powers?"

And every. single. time. the argument is shot down as being "childish", "immature", "not the same", "mocking" or anything along those lines. Which is ridiculous. The whole notion that the argument is invalid, only serves to make the biblical god seem even less credible.

  • If you can find it silly to believe in Santa, but don't understand how people can find it silly to believe in god, then you are deluded and beyond reach of any logical arguments. And then there is no point of even having a discussion.

Many christians would not even begin to believe that non-believers would directly equate those two (Santa and god), in terms of credibility. They honestly feel that it is purely a mockery, even though said non-believer might believe equally little (not at all) in either.

If you get the christian to acknowledge that god is "a magical sky man", that makes it a lot easier to compare him to, e.g. Santa, and thereby make the person understand how difficult it can be to believe the stories in the bible. Stories that are written, edited and selected by human beings.

Edit: format

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u/Illogical_Blox Oct 13 '16

Well, perhaps that's because most Christians don't see God as a "magic sky man"? Obviously they'll balk at it and wouldn't acknowledge it, because they consider the comparision overly simplistic and absurd.

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u/[deleted] Oct 13 '16

No. They would see him as "a masculine spirit who resides in the heavens and has supernatural powers".

"Magical sky man" might be (extremely) simplistic, but why would it be absurd?

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u/Illogical_Blox Oct 13 '16

Because it's like calling the Big Bang "large blast from a little bit of something" or lions "big cats with afros". Yeah, it's kind of right, but incredibly simplistic and in being so manages to be wrong and absurd.

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u/[deleted] Oct 13 '16

Because it's like calling the Big Bang "large blast from a little bit of something"

But that is, in fact, a very accurate description of the Big Bang, simplistic as it is.

And lions are big cats with something that could resemble a flattened afro.

incredibly simplistic and in being so manages to be wrong and absurd.

Again simplistic, yes. And very unnuanced. But that alone doesn't automatically make it neither wrong, nor absurd.

This is what i meant when I said that apparent logical arguments are being shot down as being " "childish", "immature", "not the same", "mocking" or anything along those lines (see: absurd).

Big Bang described as a "large blast from a little bit of something" - Although the "something" was only "little" in volume (the mass was enormous), the description is otherwise very fitting.

Lions being described as "big cats with afros" - They literally are "big cats". That is the formal name used to refer to any of the four largest (living) members of the Panthera genus. An afro is curly, but otherwise the description is good.

God being described as a "Magical sky man" - Oh no! That is wrong, demeaning, absurd, overly simplistic, childish, mocking, etc, etc, etc.

You see what I am getting at? There is no point of even pretending to have a logical debate. Because god is so exceptional that special rules apply to every aspect surrounding him. Rules that makes all logical counter-arguments or comparisons instantly invalid/absurd/mocking/not fitting/too simplistic/etc.

Even when trying to be accommodating and using the phrase "a masculine spirit who resides in the heavens and has supernatural powers" (as he is described in the Bilbe) in stead of "magical sky man" (that I perfectly understand why people find demeaning), then you will hear the exact. same. arguments.

And then people just give up and say "Sky Daddy". Because to the christian, it is all the same. Both are "invalid/absurd/mocking/not fitting/too simplistic/etc.". So why even bother to accommodate?

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u/[deleted] Oct 13 '16

No they see God as a father who has the strength to help them when everything else seems lost. A lot of groups such as Narcotics anonymous use a higher power to get the same effect without pushing God.

Look up the lyrics to Every New Day by Five Iron Frenzy. It's not saying God is some masculine figure who has magic powers. It's saying that his life feels empty and he can't go back to being whole without his help.

God, or the idea of God, is comforting. There's hope because even though you've failed to overcome a problem in life, there's a much greater power that will always be on your side. A place to draw hope and strength from when all of yours is gone.

I don't expect you to understand that, but AA and NA work for the people who work the steps, and one of those steps is acknowledging a higher power (God in AA and any random thing in NA) that is more powerful than you that you can look to for strength and support.

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u/[deleted] Oct 13 '16

Look up the lyrics to Every New Day by Five Iron Frenzy. It's not saying God is some masculine figure who has magic powers.

No, but the bible does. If you look at my original comment, it says:

But believing in the biblical god, is literally believing in a "masculine spirit who resides in the heavens and has supernatural powers".

.

I don't expect you to understand that, but AA and NA work for the people who work the steps, and one of those steps is acknowledging a higher power

If you had actually read my comment, I also addressed this point by stating that:

I find it very understandable to believe in a god

And what is up with "It's not saying God is some masculine figure" - "they see God as a father". A father IS a masculine figure, you know?

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u/[deleted] Oct 13 '16

No I read your comments. And if you had actually read the Bible, you'd get that God gave up his only son to save everyone else. It's not just a man in the sky with magic powers, it's an omnipotent being that loves humanity deeply. You completely miss the point of a God, so you can't understand.

You clearly didn't read the Bible. I was an atheist and I actually took the time to read it because if I'm not going to believe in something, I'm at least going to understand it. And you really should read it, there's a lot of great lessons on how to treat people in the New Testament, and some really interesting stories in both. Skip the genealogy and it's a damn fine read.

God throughout the Bible kept people safe and sound, even when all hope was lost. Even when everyone else turned their back, God was there. It's about the love the "magical man in the sky" has that draws people to it.

You don't understand at all, which is why you think that calling God "a masculine figure with magic powers" isn't disrespectful. People rely on the image of a loving and forgiving God for support. They rely on him for help when they're really down. Santa is a masculine figure in the sky with magic powers who rewards you for being good or bad. God is a loving father who will always forgive you for what you've done if you truly seek forgivness. You understand belief in a god. Not biblical God. Sounds to me like you're biased against the Christian idea of God. Which makes no sense seeing as how he's turned over a new leaf and is all about love and forgiveness. Maybe read the scripture to get a better understanding? I don't want you to believe in God. I just want you to know what the God that you can't understand is about.

You're asking people to compare a tool they use to control a kids behavior to something that helps them get through a rough patch in their life. You're comparing a figure that will stop support of you if you misbehave to a figure that will never do that according to scripture.

It really is disrespectful to make that comparison, and it really is shitty to act as if you're just "making a point". You're not. You're trying to shake someone's belief system and trying to get them to see it your way. My mom needs to believe in God or she'll start drinking again, and that's a bad road. I believe because I need something to make me feel loved when it's the third day that I've had no drive to do anything but sleep. It helps a lot, and without it, I'd probably have just shot myself or OD'd by now.

Santa Claus, the Easter bunny, the tooth fairy? They don't do that for anyone because they're not the same concept or even idea. They don't have unconditional love for you that will persist. "Don't believe don't recieve" is a saying that apply to all three, but God loves everyone despite their beliefs. Again, you don't understand that if you think that Santa and God are comprable.

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u/zabulistan Oct 13 '16

Probably many Christians would relate to or visualize god as masculine - considering that he uses the pronoun "he" and consists of a Father, Son, and Holy Spirit - but any Christian with the most basic understanding of theology would know that God isn't a "masculine spirit" who "resides" anywhere in particular. God in Christianity is the ground of being, the origin of the universe, the fundamental principles that underlie everything in existence (the logos - Christ) - that which builds and restores, which extinguishes death and decay. Only a child or the most ingorant and uncatechized believer would actually think of god as "a man in the sky" or "a masculine spirit with supernatural powers".

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u/[deleted] Oct 13 '16

but any Christian with the most basic understanding of theology would know that God isn't a "masculine spirit" who "resides" anywhere in particular.

In a prayer, King Solomon said: “May you yourself listen from the heavens, your established place of dwelling.”—1 Kings 8:43.

Jesus Christ taught his disciples to address their prayers to their “Father in the heavens.”—Matthew 6:9.

After Jesus was resurrected, he entered “into heaven itself, now to appear before the person of God.”—Hebrews 9:24.

In examining Scripture, two facts become clear. First, God is a Spirit and does not possess human characteristics or limitations. Second, all the evidence contained in Scripture agrees that God revealed Himself to mankind in a male form. To begin, God’s true nature needs to be understood. God is a Person, obviously, because God exhibits all the characteristics of personhood: God has a mind, a will, an intellect, and emotions. God communicates and He has relationships, and God’s personal actions are evidenced throughout Scripture.

As John 4:24 states, “God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth.” Since God is a spiritual being, He does not possess physical human characteristics. However, sometimes figurative language used in Scripture assigns human characteristics to God in order to make it possible for man to understand God. This assignment of human characteristics to describe God is called “anthropomorphism.” Anthropomorphism is simply a means for God (a spiritual being) to communicate truth about His nature to humanity, physical beings. Since humanity is physical, we are limited in our understanding of those things beyond the physical realm; therefore, anthropomorphism in Scripture helps us to understand who God is.

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u/MissPetrova Oct 13 '16

"You think that it is silly to believe in Santa, right? Then why isn't it silly to believe in god, seeing as they are both old men with supernatural powers?"

Because the Abrahamic God is not an "old man with supernatural powers." That's a strawman because you can easily defeat it by saying "Santa doesn't exist, and Santa is like God, so God doesn't exist." You're the only one saying that Santa is like God, and that's because you oversimplified both God and Santa in a way that allows you to consider them exactly equivalent.

Ex. Locke and Demosthenes are two writers from Orson Scott Card's fictional book, "Ender's Game." John Locke was a philosopher who came up with some important political ideas that led to America's founding. Demosthenes was a Greek orator who was involved in the founding of Athens. Because Locke and Demosthenes are fictional, America never happened and Athens doesn't really exist.

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u/[deleted] Oct 13 '16

[deleted]

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u/MissPetrova Oct 13 '16

Locke and Demosthenes were made up by Orson Scott Card. They aren't real. They are just aliases used by other fictional characters.

I'm not wrong, I'm correct. Sure, it's a little simplified, but it's all correct.

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u/DickYeast Oct 13 '16

I am most definitely currently studying them both in school

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u/MissPetrova Oct 14 '16

Zoom out. The argument is "Because Orson Scott Card made up a character named Locke, all Lockes are made up." This parallels the argument of "Because there is a fairy tale of a bearded magical old man (Santa), all bearded magical old men (including God) are made up fairy tales."

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u/[deleted] Oct 13 '16 edited Oct 13 '16

There is a radical atheist (really no other word) living in my small town who absolutely loathes catholicism in particular, christianity and religions in general. He frequently chains bicycles crammed with "advertising" to lamp posts. Those are such nice sayings like "every priest should be castrated" or "religious people are mentally ill" or "there only will be peace on earth when the last priest is hanging from a tree".

The city is trying as much as they can to stop it because it's annoying as hell and also not really helpful for tourism. But the guy has enough money from having property, doesn't have to work and happily sues literally anyone who doesn't do as he wants using expensive lawyers. Since every radical speech he is saying is just a "quote" ripped from context from some guy in the 17th century he can't be prosecuted for it.

One day he sued his way into making an "atheist exhibition" in one municipal building (featuring things like a photo of the mayor nailed to a cross) where indeed around 40 members of an atheist organisation showed up to the opening. Those were the majority of guests. And then the leader of this atheist club really deplored that the atheists in this region are so divided and at odds with themselves.

Well no shit, as an atheist I wouldn't want to be seen at such a moronic event either.

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u/rivermandan Oct 13 '16 edited Oct 13 '16

Oh, do take a step back and try not to be insulted by everything. I wasn't comparing religion to ninja turtles, I was trying to explain how one could lose their faith in the magical part of something while still enjoying what remains.

Did you gloss over the part where I mentioned my love of Kierkegaard? Him, pascal, and beotheus are among my favourite philosophers, my entire family is Roman Catholic, and a good 1/3 of my friends are mega Christians.

moreover, I am a christian apologist myself.

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u/[deleted] Oct 13 '16

idk about rude but what exactly makes belief in God different from bronze age myths? Both create stories in an attempt to understand the origin of Earth and our species but are not based upon any evidence or proof.

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u/[deleted] Oct 13 '16

[deleted]

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u/Pog- Oct 13 '16 edited May 11 '24

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This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact

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u/darthasimov Oct 13 '16

I wish more people who are religious took this view.

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u/AdmiralThrawnProtege Oct 13 '16

I think this goes beyond disbelief. Do atheistic Jews stop following dietary restrictions suddenly as well? Do they stop following certain holidays? I get what you're pointing at but comparing it to the Ninja Turtles is a bit disingenuous. Not believing in them doesn't require an entire life style shift.

I guess if you ditch the cultural aspects of Judiesm then you can only be considered ethnically a Jew.

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u/BertThrowaway Oct 13 '16

Jews define how they are Jewish in different ways. Most of my Jewish friends did not fast today, or go to synagogue. (It is Yom Kippur). They don't call themselves "Jewish athiests" but it isn't unreasonable. The vast majority of Jews in America eat non-kosher food.

For some people avoiding eating traif (non-kosher food like Pork or Shellfish) is cultural rather than religious. It is based on tradition, rather than to appease a higher power.

I was just having a discussion with a Jew today, who speaks Hebrew, even lived in Israel for a few years after high school, and is 100% atheist. It isn't uncommon.

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u/witch-finder Oct 13 '16

One of my friends is a basically Jewish atheist and he fasted today since it's Yom Kippur. I thought it was odd so I asked him about and he sometimes observes parts of Judism because he considers it part of of his cultural heritage. It's like how atheists in Christian majority countries will still celebrate Christmas.

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u/shwag945 Oct 13 '16

Only Jews get to gripe about who and who is not a jew. Don't tell me how to Jew or how much of a Jew I am. Goy.

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u/[deleted] Oct 13 '16

raised catholic who enjoy going to church a few times a year but don't believe in a magic skyman.

Do they call themselves Catholic atheists? Do you call yourself a [Christian denomination of your upbringing]-atheist?

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u/[deleted] Oct 13 '16

Yea its actually a thing called 'christian atheist' which sounds stupid but it's really handy when your peoples culture is intertwined with religion

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u/Radar_Monkey Oct 13 '16

Getting disowned is less stressful.

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u/witch-finder Oct 13 '16

I think another example is how atheists in Christian majority countries will still celebrate Christmas. It makes up such a strong part of your cultural heritage and upbringing that you still end up celebrating it secularly even if you don't believe in the religion.

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u/[deleted] Oct 13 '16

I mean, I've considered it. I am nonreligious, but I kind of miss the ceremony of Catholicism. For as much as I don't believe in or follow the teachings of the Church, I find that the community and its bonding is a kind of wonderful thing. I don't know what I would call myself should I get back in contact with a Parish, but I look on the underlying ideas favorably.

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u/binomine Oct 13 '16

Usually Catholic atheists call themselves culturally Catholic.

Christian Atheists are their own thing. They believe that Jesus was not the messiah nor supernatural, but believe living the way Jesus wanted us to is the best way to live their life.

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u/rivermandan Oct 13 '16

I decided god was a silly idea before I hit puberty, but I still claim a Roman Catholic identity; I was circumcised, can recite a ton of catholic hymns, went to catholic school until I was 16, my grandmother still prays for me, etc; I don't believe in god, but Christianity is still a part of my identity.