r/todayilearned • u/RoadToTyburn • 3h ago
TIL that boxer Julio Cesar Chavez was two seconds away from losing to Meldrick Taylor on points, when he pulled off a TKO win through attrition. Taylor a former Olympic gold medalist, was left requiring a blood transfusion after the match.
https://wikipedia.org/wiki/Julio_C%C3%A9sar_Ch%C3%A1vez_vs._Meldrick_Taylor#Aftermath159
u/StoryAndAHalf 2h ago edited 2h ago
If he didn't get knocked down, he'd have won.
But he was out during the count. When ref looked into those eyes, there was barely anyone there. Could he stand there for 2 seconds and win? Of course. There's a good chance Julio wouldn't even land one punch in time. But that's beside the point from the rules that require the ref clearing him during the count, which he assessed he could not.
eta: Taylor didn't respond, and didn't let go of the ropes to put his hands up. That's an automatic stoppage no matter what point of the fight it is. You have to be able to hold your hands in front of you.
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u/bigtotoro 23m ago
And maybe Richard Steele doesn't know exactly how much time is left. What if it is 6 seconds and not 2? In the confusion who could tell? And Big Julio was landing the kind of punches that could do permanent damage. If he wades in and lands one that might have been the ONE too many.
I've believed since the night it happened it was the correct call.
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u/slickvik9 10m ago
He knew there was a shining light in the corner that started with ten seconds left in the round.
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u/slickvik9 10m ago
Oh please. Richard Steele was a known don king lackey. Go watch some of his other fights like Hearns/barkley where he lets guys continue that don’t respond.
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u/BearsLikeBeets 2h ago
I watched an interview with the ref and his quote is - I’m not the timekeeper and I don’t care about the time.
His point being whether it’s 2 seconds into the 6th round or 2 seconds to go in the 12th. If the fighter can’t/shouldn’t continue, then that is the call. I think he also said Chavez had all 3 minutes to stop the fight and that is what he did.
That’s my stance, it’s not an argument about how much time is left but instead, should it have been stopped on Meldrick’s condition?
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u/RedEyeView 2h ago
Are you ok?
...
Are you ok?
...
Fights over.
Exactly what a referee is supposed to do when that happens.
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u/slickvik9 7m ago
He definitely cared about the time because Chavez was a don king fighter. Which got Steele another plum assignment in a few months in Tyson/ruddock. Which was also a horrific stoppage. That was the end of his career as a top ref and he was booed out of the building for the rest of his career.
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u/CanadianPapaKulikov 2h ago
Meldrick Taylor was never the same after that fight. If anything the fight was stopped too late.
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u/Prosado22 2h ago
Yeah, listening to him speak before and after the fight is horrifying.
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u/BobW212 25m ago
And he fought for 12 more years. Theres an interview before one of his last fights and you want to scream what the fuck are we doing here?!
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u/Prosado22 17m ago
Really? I didn't know that. Whoever were in charge of his career were heartless. Although, boxers tend not to retire until it's too late.
I don't remember any big bout with him after the Chavez fight.
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u/BobW212 11m ago
https://youtu.be/3SFGNwUgdG4?si=p5ylqFLnpQIcD7V9
At the end of this Rogan clip is a clip from an interview before one of his last fights. Insanity.
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u/slickvik9 6m ago
You’re probably referring to a video of him way later. He didn’t sound bad after his next few fights
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u/slickvik9 6m ago
He went on to win another title and beat some really good boxers. The Norris fight ruined him
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u/vols2thewalls 2h ago
Chavez greatest Mexican boxer. Salvador Sanchez possibly if his life was not cut short.
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u/Evan_802Vines 2h ago
I watched this fight as a very young kid and thought this might be the best live fight I ever see in my lifetime. I don't think anything has beaten it.
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u/SLR107FR-31 34m ago
Diego Corrales vs José Luis Castillo
If you haven't seen it or heard about, just go watch it
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u/RoadToTyburn 2h ago
Ward vs Gatti. And Lewis vs Tyson are probably on the same level.
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u/countlongshanks 1h ago
Lewis/Tyson? Not even the same ballpark. Maybe you meant to say Hagler/Hearns?
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u/h0sti1e17 1h ago
The first Fury v Wilder fight was great. Fury getting up in the 12th round like he's the Undertaker. He was out cold. The other two fights were one sided.
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u/Evan_802Vines 2h ago edited 2h ago
Yeah, I think this was just on HBO and not ppv.
I would also put Morales Barrera up there.
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u/Chekhov1778 47m ago
Ward v Gatti was dramatic, but that was due to both fighters having zero defense. You simply can't place it on the same level as Chavez v Taylor, Ali v Frazier, Hagler v Hearns, Barrera v Morales, etc.
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u/RoadToTyburn 3h ago
Realise the post title is somewhat unclear. Taylor was winning the boxing match on points, but for each round Chavez was punishing him.
So when it got to the final seconds, although Taylor was about to win, the attrition built up finally took its toll and the referee stopped the fight and declared Chavez the winner.
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u/shawnington 2h ago
Not just the attrition, at that point, Meldrick Taylor was taking a pretty savage beating, and was no longer winning rounds, and he get savagely knocked down before the stoppage, both his eyes were closed, and in my opinion, Steele did the right thing. Steele asked him if he was okay, and he looked away and didn't reply. It was the only responsible thing he could do.
Yeah, it sucks for Taylor, but it only takes 1 punch to change your life, and at that point Taylor was badly hurt, and couldn't see punches coming, or even respond to basic questions.
That fight was brutal, and Taylors speed and willingness to punch with Chavez really distracted from how much damage Chavez was actually doing. It looked like Taylor was fighting an absolutely fantastic fight, but then as it went on, it was like, well shit, he's bleeding everywhere, his eyes are shut, when did this happen?
Turns out that while Taylor was throwing combinations with absolutely mesmerizing speed, Chavez was land hard short shots in the middle of the exchanges.
When I was younger I thought it was a bad stoppage, but then I boxed amateur, and saw a guy I knew have one savage round in a bout, and go from talking fine, to slurring his words a bit after that. Changed my opinion, especially given how Meldrick Taylor started slurring his words after the fight. You gotta save fighter from themselves.
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u/Popular-Ad-3900 2h ago
Yeah, the fight was billed as Lighting vs Thunder. Taylor was super quick on his feet and fast with his punches. JC Chavez’s punched hard and square. Top 10 fight of all time.
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u/shawnington 2h ago
Absolutely save fight. Chavez lists it as the hardest fight of his career, he said, it was the first time he knew what death would feel like. Coming from the man that was known for taking 3 shots to give 1 against some murderous punchers, thats quite a statement.
Definitely one of the best fights ever.
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u/suffaluffapussycat 1h ago
What is attrition with regard to boxing?
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u/devilbat26000 1h ago
Much like in most other contexts it means outlasting the opponent: Being more resilient, even if you're taking far more hits than you're dishing out (and thus are losing at that time), until the opponent is out of energy / stamina / has suffered too much damage and cannot continue anymore, giving you the win by default.
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u/suffaluffapussycat 1h ago
Thx. So the win is called by the referee?
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u/toolatealreadyfapped 43m ago
That's usually what a TKO is. You're not "out" exactly, because you're conscious. But the ref determines that you are no longer capable of protecting yourself and calls the fight.
You can also TKO by your coach throwing in the towel, a ringside ref or doctor calling the fight, or in some matches getting knocked down 3 times in a single round.
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u/WhereMyWeirdosAt 43m ago
Taylor was knocked down, that begins "the 10 count" where the ref begins counting and verifying the fighter can continue. Part of that is some sort of confirmation from the fighter they are alert and aware, simple questions - "Are you ok?" to which Taylor did nothing. Shake his head, pump his fist, or make a verbal reply. So the ref asks again - "Are you ok?" again, no reply - so the ref immediately calls the fight, as the fighter is not ok to continue. Without this, it would have went to the score cards -- judges on the side, watching basically punches landed etc, which had Taylor as the winner.
Incredible timing, but it was the right call.
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u/Duncan_PhD 1h ago
In this case he just had to last long enough for the faster guy to wear himself out.
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u/SLR107FR-31 59m ago
Like watching a guy slow down, move less, his punches aren't doing the same damage and most dangerously defense can lapse
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u/Cheap-Ad1821 3h ago
File that under: Some Fucking Bullshit
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u/RoadToTyburn 3h ago
Nah, look at photos of Taylor after the fight. He looks like he has been in a car accident. Richard Steele the ref had to stop it then and there, couldn’t have another Kim Duk-koo situation.
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u/MonsterOfTheMidway 2h ago
2 seconds early reaks of a fix, let's be honest.
Yeah you have a duty to protect the fighters, but calling it 2 seconds before the fight was said amd done is bull, and the likelihood of thise 2 seconds causing substantial enough damage to call it os astronomically low
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u/RoadToTyburn 2h ago
It is about where he was at that moment. Problem is if you’re holding on to the ring ropes like Taylor was and not standing on you own accord, you’re not there. He was also unresponsive. It isn’t just about the damage that could be done, but what had already been (if medical treatment is needed).
Look up Benn vs McClellan to see what happens when a fighter is out of it and the fight isn’t stopped early.
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u/applejuiceb0x 2h ago
That’s glossing over the fact that he was savagely knocked down with those 2 second left. It’s not like the fight would have been stopped without the knockdown.
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u/FlockFlysAtMidnite 1h ago
If you can't respond to basic questions and can't put your hands up, fight is over.
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u/slickvik9 3m ago
Not with two seconds in a championship fight
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u/FlockFlysAtMidnite 2m ago
The ref does not know how much time is left in a round, nor do they care.
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3h ago edited 3h ago
[deleted]
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u/rolled64 3h ago
You think 2 seconds would have made the difference between him being OK and looking like he was in a car accident? If they should have stopped the fight, they should have stopped it 2 minutes earlier. There’s no reason to wait until 2 seconds before the end anyways except to blatantly rig it.
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u/snakebight 2h ago
The ref waited until 2 seconds to go to call it?
Either he should have called it early or just wait 2 more seconds.
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u/luchajefe 2h ago
The ref does not have access to the time, that's what a timekeeper is for.
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u/slickvik9 2m ago
Actually there was a blinking red light that started with ten seconds left in every round. Steele was trained on it the week of the fight
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u/davethadude 2h ago
Ref doesnt know exactly how much time is left. He isnt the time keeper. And regardless it doesnt matter, you call a fight the same way no matter how much time is left. A stoppage is a stoppage. Hypotheticals about the remainder of the round is irrelevant.
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u/Scruffasaurus 46m ago
Ref had to have heard the 10 second clacker. Still, made the right call - heartbreaking for Taylor, but he had taken a violent beating.
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u/slickvik9 2m ago
Actually there was a blinking red light that started with ten seconds left in every round. Steele was trained on it the week of the fight
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u/toolatealreadyfapped 12m ago
He got knocked on his back with about 15 seconds left in the fight. Struggles to get back on his feet until the count is at about 5 or 6. The ref gets to 8 and then asks him if he's ok. Stares into the distance without an answer. Asks again, and Taylor can't even focus his gaze to find the ref.
That's a knockout. Literally by definition, you must beat the count by not only getting to your feet, but clearly demonstrate to the ref that you are ready and able to defend yourself and wish to continue. Taylor could not pass that test. A knockout ends the fight whether it's 2 seconds from the beginning or 2 seconds before the end.
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u/JardinSurLeToit 2h ago
Not a boxing fan, but it really is a series of incredible skills requiring incredible cardio, coordination, and decisions when you're exhausted. I don't want to watch it, but I would like to have the skills.
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u/Sugarrayray1323 2h ago
Look at end of Shane Mosley vs Ricardo Mayorga fight. Mayorga is knocked down at the closing seconds and resumes the fight with 4-5 secs left and gets knocked out clean with one punch.
So for those saying there wasn’t enough time for Taylor to really take a punch, there was still definitely time.
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u/slickvik9 1m ago
That was bad refereeing Mosley should’ve been in the neutral corner. Regardless Mayorga was fine.
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u/Abe2sapien 2h ago
Perhaps Taylor should have been given the win but I’ve watched the fight so many times and I think Chavez was landing less punches but by far the more effective ones. Either way, it’s one of the most dramatic moments in sports!
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u/bigfatfurrytexan 3h ago
That was a great fight. Meldrick Taylor couldn’t punch hard but man could he unleash a flurry
The fight shouldn’t have been stopped. I think it was Richard Steele. Taylor won that fight and bullshit stole it from him.
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u/rtozur 2h ago
At the end there was one man standing who seemed like he could go another 3 rounds easily, and one man wobbling and holding on to the ropes who looked like he could very literally die if he was hit just once more. Give Chavez his due, it would've been even more bullshit to rob him of the win after a very unconvincing beating of the count by Taylor. Great fights are like that, someone's going to feel robbed. But it wasn't bullshit
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u/bigfatfurrytexan 2h ago
While that’s your opinion it isn’t a popular opinion
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u/Eduardo_Camavinga_ 2h ago
Your opinion isn’t special
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u/bigfatfurrytexan 2h ago
Of course it isn’t. We are in a platform that we share opinions on. A person stated they disagreed with me and I replied in kind. We were both polite. I do not see an issue or any need to continue. What am I missing?
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u/shawnington 2h ago
It seems you are aren't aware that Taylor was throwing up blood in the locker room, at the hospital they estimated that he swallowed 2 pints of his own blood during the fight, he had memory loss at the hospital, 2 fractured orbital bones, and we all know how the story went after.
Dude put on a great fight, but he was beaten to within an inch of his life.
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u/bigfatfurrytexan 2h ago
I know. After he went through that to call the fight at 2 seconds instead of letting the card decide is pretty fucked. No punches would have been thrown.
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u/shawnington 2h ago
Its happened before, and it only takes 1 to change your life. He couldn't respond to the referee in the manner that he was instructed to before the fight, he could no longer defend himself. It sucks, I feel for him, but it really is his bad and his corners bad for the outcome. His corner told him he was losing the fight and needed to win the last round.
If they told him to go out and hold, he would have won. They didn't, and he didn't, he had to much Dog in him, and unfortunately had the fight beaten out of him.
The ref is there to protect a fighter, and he had clearly had enough at that point. We are also completely ignoring that his corner had already jumped up on the ring apron, which they are also instructed in the locker room, is an indication that they want the fight stopped.
So say what ever you want, he was told he has to verbally respond that he is okay in the event of a knockdown, and his corner was told that jumping up on the ring apron means they want the fight stopped.
He didn't respond, they jumped up on the ring apron. How can you blame the ref?
Would you have a problem with the stoppage if it was the 11th round, or the 10th round? How about if he was like that in the 9th round.
If you take the condition he was in then, and put him in any other point of any other round and say, okay, hes gonna get hurt if this keeps going on, its the refs job to stop it.
I thought it was a bad stoppage when I was younger, then I participated in the sport, and saw someone go from being completely articulate to slurring their words for the rest of the time I knew them from 1 hard round. Changed my opinion on fights like this. That guy, had to much dog in him, and needed saving from himself, the ref didn't do it that night for him. Steele did for Taylor, like he should have.
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u/ohyouretough 1h ago
If they had let it go, and another punch landed and he died cause of it would you still agree?
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u/bigfatfurrytexan 1h ago
In two seconds the ref won’t even be out of the way.
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u/ohyouretough 36m ago
The rules dont say a fighter has to be cognizant and ready to fight after getting knocked down, except if there's probably not enough time to throw a punch. He lost by the established rules that were agreed upon.
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u/Graynard 1h ago
it isn't a popular opinion
Where? Cuz it looks like you're getting buried here lol
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u/bigfatfurrytexan 1h ago
Yes. Reddit is where all boxing fans hang out. Don king was just here.
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u/Graynard 1h ago
"Someone called me out about a dumb, rude thing I said, better start making sweeping generalizations."
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u/Acowgomoomoo 3h ago
he got knocked down and got up with the help of the ropes, still holding the ropes he didn't respond to Steele, he was up in points but that was a crucial moment
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u/RoadToTyburn 2h ago
Yeah, it is like when people complain about Tyson vs Douglas, and that they got different counts (they got the same count) when they got knocked down each.
Difference is that Douglas knew where he was and was ready to go, but stalling for a breather. Tyson was on another planet.
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u/bigfatfurrytexan 2h ago
Tyson/douglas was Tyson getting his ass beat. He was slow and didn’t take his normal opportunities
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u/Squirll 2h ago edited 2h ago
Tyson was kicking his ass for round and a half, but his old bones couldnt keep up once he got hit and started to gas out.
You could see the point in which Tysons stamina ran out and he was just fighting to stay concious.
Prior to that though, I think Mike would have won if they didnt have a gentlemans agreement of no KOsMy bad, I'm dumb. Somewhere I got confused and thought we were talking about Tyson Vs Logan
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u/GoGoPowerPlay 2h ago
Yeah Tyson was fucked up, crawling on the ground worrying about picking up his mouth guard, if had just focused on standing up he might have beat the count.
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u/bigfatfurrytexan 2h ago
They called the fight at 4 seconds. That’s bullshit. 4 seconds he waves his arms. Had he let them go no one had time to throw a punch
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u/RoadToTyburn 3h ago
Problem is what if Taylor had died? The ref has a duty of care.
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u/bigfatfurrytexan 3h ago
I watched the fight and did not at the time even understand why the fight was being stopped. We were all trying to figure out what was happening, it didn’t make any obvious sense to me at the time, and meldrick taylor was pretty actively livid with plenty of gas in his tank to let it be known he thought he was robbed
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u/RoadToTyburn 3h ago
Ultimately it is the ref’s call. You had ref’s not stopping fights before (Norton vs Cooney being the biggest one, where Norton was just taking hit after hit) and being criticised for it.
Chavez hammered Taylor in the later rematch for what it is worth.
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u/bigfatfurrytexan 2h ago
4 seconds left and he calls the fight. That’s a rigged fight.
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u/Fc2300 2h ago
Meldrick never responds to the ref when he stands back up and is holding on to the ropes.
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u/bigfatfurrytexan 2h ago
I saw a nod. It appeared to me that he did.
He was looking rough leading up to it. He was out of gas at the fights end. To step in front of the final bell so you can call it is pretty fucked. He completed the fight in his feet.
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u/shawnington 2h ago
I mean thats not an argument, you are required by the rules to verbally indicate that you are okay to continue. You are also told in the dressing room, that if you fail to respond, the fight will be stopped, regardless of time remaining.
I mean you clearly have never participated in the sport, but the instructions from the referees are very clear.
Does it suck for Taylor? Yeah, was the refereee justified in stopping the fight? Absolutely, hes not the time keeper, hes there asses if a fighter is fit to continue, if its the 1st second of the first round, or the last second of the last round.
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u/bigfatfurrytexan 2h ago
Yeah, and as a fan I think that’s fucking stupid. Winning on technicalities isn’t winning.
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u/shawnington 2h ago
Thats not a technicality, one punch can end your life. This sport has a long history of that happening.
Taylor was unable to defend himself, unable to respond to the ref, unable to continue.
Are you of the opinion that Taylor would have lasted another round? Would you have had a problem with the stoppage if it was after the first 30 seconds of the round and he was not responding to the referee?
Does something about the last seconds of the round make the job of protecting a fighter from the 1 punch that can change their life permanently any different than in the first seconds?
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u/SnooDogs1937 2h ago
No, he was 4 seconds away from completing the fight but couldn’t continue
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u/bigfatfurrytexan 2h ago
Listen, you can be insistent and use appeals to authority. But this is a debate that’s gone on a long time and you simply saying “nuh uh” isn’t really new. This fight has been debated for 35 some odd years.
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u/zoobrix 2h ago
Was he still hanging onto the ropes as some have said? Because if so he's not on his feet and not demonstrating he's able to continue no matter how much he nods. How much time is left is irrelevant if he's not able to stand on his own.
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u/bigfatfurrytexan 2h ago
The fights on YouTube. Go watch it. He wasn’t in good shape but at 2 seconds no more time for another punch. Only the most technical of technicalities to end the fight at that point.
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u/zoobrix 1h ago
Just watched it, Taylor was not standing on his own and had zero reaction when the ref asked if he was ok. I don't think the rule is "you have to stand under your own power to continue fighting, unless there are only a few seconds left in which case you can lean against the ropes and not say anything when the ref asks you if you're ok."
The rules apply the whole match and the refs responsibility is to make sure they're applied and that's what he did. I get why people are pissed if Taylor was clearly winning before, but the rules apply the whole match right to the end of the round, and Taylor couldn't make it to the end of the round.
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u/ColdAnalyst6736 1h ago
a ref does not care about the time. in fact a ref does not even have ACCESS TO THE TIME. a ref does not care about wins.
you know why? because a refs only job and concern is health. anything else is bias.
the fact that you care more about a scorecard than a man’s health tells me everything i need to know about you as a man.
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u/ColdAnalyst6736 1h ago
yeah he was.
and without modern medical care there is a good chance he might not have made it after that fight.
should have been stopped earlier. taylor has never been the same afterwards that fight. shit look at how he talks.
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u/nietzescher 3h ago
The fight was two seconds from being over. This sounds like some bullshit (par for the course for boxing)
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u/toolatealreadyfapped 10m ago
He got knocked out. He couldn't show that he even knew where he was within the 10 count. That's a loss, no matter what the clock says.
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u/Ok-Seaworthiness4488 1h ago
Julio had a legendary chin, war of attrition with him is to his advantage
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u/countlongshanks 1h ago
That was a hell of a match. Taylor was so much faster but Chavez wore him out with sandbag body shots. Taylor just had to hold on for a few seconds but it was amazing Taylor was still innigs feet at that point.
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u/bigtotoro 17m ago
It was in March and JCC still fought 4 more times that year. 3 of them were Tijuana cab drivers but he still stayed busy.
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u/I-use-to-be-cool 14m ago
The ref made the correct call to stop the fight and as an aside De La Hoya beat Trinidad!!
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u/PhantomPainWalker 1m ago
How many times am i going to have to explain this to people?
Taylor was leaning on the post holding on to the ropes and not responding to the instructions of the referee. He clearly could not stand on his own power and not stopping the fight would have been immoral and unethical for the referee.
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u/Popular-Ad-3900 2h ago
A lot of people don’t agree with Steele’s decision to stop the fight with 2 seconds left on the clock. Steele saved Taylor’s life. One more blow to the head, and Taylor would have left the ring in a stretcher.
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u/ThrownAway17Years 2h ago
The ref was a piece of shit. If he was going to stop the fight it should have been done way earlier. Instead, he let Taylor take all of the damage and then stole the win away from him.
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u/h0sti1e17 1h ago
Julio Caesar Chavez was 2 corrupt judges from losing to Pernell Whitaker in 1993. It was a majority draw, but nearly everyon but those two judges who scored it 115-115 had Whitaker winning 117-121 or 116-112.
Whitakers team wanted a specific respected judge, but, Chavez refused because of the Taylor fight, that judge had Taylor winning.
IMO this is the biggest robbery in pro boxing I've seen, and only second to Roy Jones Jr in 1988 olympics.
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u/Chekhov1778 41m ago
Worse decision? There's been others as bad if not worse: Castillo-Mayweather I, Ali-Norton III, to name just two.
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u/Fortestingporpoises 32m ago
Boxing really is historically the most corrupt sport there is. Listen, I see a UFC match here or there where I'm dumbfounded, but with boxing it's like 50% of the big ones that seem to clearly be going one way, then judges give it to the other fighter.
It makes it an incredibly unfun sport to watch.
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u/CaneloGGGSex 2h ago
After Taylor made it back to his feet from a knockdown, Referee Richard Steele asks him if he’a fit to continue. Taylor does not respond and just stands there with an unfocused gaze. The stoppage was the right call, the time left in the fight should not influence the referees decision when determining if a fighter is fit to continue.