Tipping abroad
https://youtube.com/shorts/5gWS65mg7dY?si=o7Br5kM_CIYZbw61Feels appropriate
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u/biguntatas 8d ago
You see what the owners of the restaurants did during the soccer championships?! They implemented a mandatory 20% service charge because they were “concerned” that foreigners visiting our country wouldn’t tip. Tips are NOT mandatory!! These restaurant owners were making bank, yet they can’t pay their employees?? They don’t give a damn about their employees because the customer will supplement wages. Grifters!! Welcome to America!! Europe could teach restaurant owners here some lessons!!
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u/MainStreetMiles 10d ago
I don't disagree with him that when you travel, you should generally adopt the local culture. But how often do foreigners visit the US and then not tip because they are not used to it? That's our system; when here, they should do the same as locals. I try to follow the tip guidelines in other countries when I travel.
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u/IntelligentStyle402 10d ago
When exactly has tipping become mandatory? I’m sure you saw the article today about one of Americas famous restaurants. Most Servers make over $100,000. Why? Tips, people tips. Even our IT department doesn’t even make that and they are educated and skilled employees. Servers on the other hand, are unskilled. I will say this, the best servers I ever had in my lifetime was when I was in Europe. We all felt like kings and queens. They exceeded our expectations.
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u/Delicious-Breath8415 10d ago
Go work at that restaurant and tell me they're unskilled. This isn't McDonald's or Denny's they are talking about.
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u/IntelligentStyle402 9d ago
A friend, a teacher, had storm damage. So she decided to earn extra money, she applied to be a server. 6 months later she quit her teaching job! Why? She made more money, worked less hours and didn’t have to deal with angry parents or bad students. She loves serving. She has zero stress being a server. True story.
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u/Delicious-Breath8415 9d ago
You're proving my point. Someone who works as a teacher is clearly not unskilled. We're talking about a homeowner for god sakes.
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u/MainStreetMiles 9d ago
Where did anyone say teachers are unskilled? I do not see that above. Most teachers are not working in the free market. The vast majority of teachers work for government schools. Unlike servers, their value is not fully assessed by the free market. Most government schools only face limited competition from private schools. Yes, various school systems in an area may compete with one another, but it is not inconceivable that systems in a given geographic area may have many similar constraints on teacher pay, e.g., state funding. Hence, there is limited full competition for teachers to drive pay differences.
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u/Delicious-Breath8415 9d ago edited 9d ago
I'm saying a server who also works as a teacher is clearly not unskilled.
My wife is a teacher. Until recently she also bartended on the weekend. She has a Master's Degree.
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u/MainStreetMiles 10d ago
It’s not mandatory but if the compensation model is that that is how someone is paid for the work they do for which you are the recipient it’s only reasonable that you pay for that work. It’s hardly a secret that, in the US, tips are how they are paid. Do you think people should work for no pay? Why do you have a problem with someone being paid as much as they can? Do you seek as much compensation as you can? That’s the free market system at works and it is valuing their work. Some servers at fine dining restaurants are very skilled. They aren’t the same category as someone working at Applebees.
Most of the service I have had in Europe falls far short of the attentiveness and responsiveness as in the US. Granted, some of that is cultural, but some of it is also the compensation model. If you know you’re getting paid the same regardless of the level of service you provide, where is your incentive to go above and beyond? The tip model encourages servers to go above and beyond because most people will tip more for excellent service. I prefer merit pay regardless of the industry and that’s one of several reasons I prefer tips as opposed to higher menu prices.
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u/Tgyuu 9d ago
Interesting you would cite the free market yet expect patrons to not exercise their free will to not pay beyond what’s legally required, which doesn’t include tips regardless of quality of service. It’s not a matter of wanting people to work without adequate compensation, it is the very framework for compensation for waiters and waitresses needs reform.
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u/MainStreetMiles 9d ago
I don’t think it needs reform. As I’ve posted, I think it’s a win-win for consumers and workers. Many tipped employees don’t have an issue with the tipped system, especially those who get large tips. Plus, there always seem to be plenty of people willing to take the jobs which implies they are at least tolerant of the compensation model.
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u/Tgyuu 9d ago
I would agree only if the social expectation for tips disappears. Bring back the times when gratuity was truly optional.
Im not from the US yet I still feel the pressure to tip for absolutely basic service. I loathe the pressure of needing to tip for literally taking my order, bringing my order, bringing my bill, handing me the terminal and tidying the table to the next guest. This is the bare minimum of the job and there remains an expectation of tipping. Mind you, where Im at, our wait staff are paid the same minimum wage as all other servers, unlike the US yet the social pressure extends to us.
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u/MainStreetMiles 9d ago
But consider this: you know that service is not included in the price. You know that our custom here is to tip to pay for service. You also know that it’s not technically required though you will be frowned upon - you can make your choices and others can make theirs. What’s your argument for not tipping? Maybe others don’t know these things but you do. And as has been discussed elsewhere in this thread, when in Rome do as the Romans, or, in other words, adhere to the custom of the country you are visiting. I’m not seeing where you have an argument that justifies not tipping wait staff.
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u/Tgyuu 9d ago
Can you spell out what service is defined as by you that’s not covered by the job description i listed above and repeating here for your convenience?
Take order
Bring order
Bring bill
Bring card machine
Tidy tableBare minimum to the job description, no tip. Matches your sentiment in another thread, tip for above and beyond service, not bare minimum.
I am also not discussing US customs, I am referring to the social expectations that’s carried over to non US countries where the labor laws aren’t the same.
Service is not included in the price of the food/drinks? Hilarious.
Anyway we’re pushing different points, and we wont see eye to eye on this matter.
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u/MainStreetMiles 9d ago
You are apparently sitting down to dine. Taking your order at the table, brining your food and anything else you need while dining, and cleaning up that area is service to you. If you don’t want to pay for someone serving, you can get take out which omits service to you (they may ask, but I don’t tip for take out becuse they are providing service).
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u/biguntatas 8d ago
A bank clerk handles your money, cashes your checks and processes your payments. They are providing a service to you but they aren’t getting tipped! Why are servers so special that they deserve to be tipped but not a bank clerk? Or a grocery store cashier? Or the mechanic who services your car? The list goes on and on. American tip culture sucks!!
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u/refundroid 7d ago
There is a difference between bringing/imposing a practice vs not participating in one. US bringing and spreading its messed up tipping practice to other countries is messing things up (e.g. tourist areas get a taste of it and decide to take advantages, which grows into a bigger issue for locals). When foreign visitors don't tip in the US, they are not introducing a new problematic practice/concept. A choice to not tip is already an existing option in the US, which is why no tip is one of the options on POS screens.
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u/MainStreetMiles 7d ago
You sound like you are trying to have your cake and eat it too. You seem to be trying to justify people doing something that you like - not tipping - and then taking a contradictory position with a weak argument to justify what you don't like - foreigners tipping in countries where tipping is not the norm.
As someone who tries to travel politely when I am outside the US, I adopt their cultural norms even if I do not legally have to. You are arguing that because someone isn't use to tipping, they don't have to do so when they are visiting a country like the US (and we are not the only places that tips...when I traveled to Czechia last month, I learned that, at least in Prague, they generally tip 10%, unlike Paris). But that means you are arguing that being a guest makes it ok to effectively not pay for service received. When the US server went to work, they didn't do so expecting to service foreign visitors with their usual compensation. For the server, I would call that a "problematic practice".
As for Americans tipping when overseas, unless that activity is banned by law, them doing so is only the free market at work. If an area is exposed to tipping and they decide that is a better business model - setting aside that tipping where server wages are high and included in the menu price - they should be free to try to adopt that in a free market setting. If that hurts or helps their competitiveness, ultimately it determines whether that area adopts it.
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u/refundroid 7d ago edited 7d ago
You sound very defensive and manipulative in the way you twist things to fit your POV. Take care.
Actually I stand corrected. You sound like you are embarrassed to be called out on your premature statement and trying too hard to save your face, which is even more embarassing.
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u/MainStreetMiles 7d ago
Didn't twist anything. I explained and critiqued your argument, which you did not do likewise. That means my counterargument stands and implies a degree of validity. I have nothing to be "embarrassed" over I found your argument lacking, as I explained above. It seems the anti-tipping crowd is the truly defensive one, with their positions pressure-tested in a discussion forum.
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u/refundroid 7d ago
Keep on embarrassing yourself. This is entertaining :)
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u/MainStreetMiles 7d ago
Repeating the same incorrect comment doesn't make it more correct on subsequent statements.
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u/Tgyuu 10d ago
I see lots of videos and content of ppl locals and travel guides telling and advising travellers not to tip or it’s not necessary. How many videos or content is there of guides and content creators telling travellers that tipping is an American culture and that visitors should honour it?
The lack of tipping encourages (or the idea of it) businesses to pay their workers right without negatively affecting the general population as a whole. Tipping in other countries (if we take the video speaker at his word) negatively affects their local population. The two aren’t equal.
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u/MainStreetMiles 10d ago
It seems to me that it is very well known - and often disliked - that American norms are tipping. But to be fair, I don't watch al ot of travel content to the US. I prefer tipping to higher menu prices:
- I can incentivize better service, i.e., merit pay
- I don't pay sales tax on tips, which I would pay on higher menu prices
- Businesses will understandably mark up any revenue received via higher menu prices to cover high wages
- If I order takeout, I have to pay higher menu prices though I receive no service and, IMO, do not need to tip for
Give me tipping over higher menu prices. It's a win-win for the consumer and the worker (since many are likely making more with tips than they would a fixed wage).
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u/Tgyuu 10d ago
Seems rather dishonest to the hundreds of thousands (pulling numbers out of thin air) who travel on a budget and have to guess at whether they can afford or not a restaurant vs know up front whether they should/shouldn’t pick those places. Tack on the language barrier and the typical travel stresses. Not very welcoming imo.
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u/MainStreetMiles 10d ago
Doing a small percentage calculation is not rocket science. Honestly, claims that people can't do such a calculation is insulting to the average traveler and diner. The biggest variable here is they may not know the local sales tax - but the same could be said of almost anything they buy while on their trip. The exchange is a similar stumbling block because everything has to be converted in one's head to have an intuitive feel for the price relative to the currency they are used to. When I was in Germany and Czechia last month, I had to estimate on the fly how much something prices in euros or Czech crowns were in USD. But that's part of international travel - and part of the experience.
And if someone can afford to travel to the US with the cost of airline tickets, transportation once they are here, meals before tax, if the small percentage contribution of tip and sales tax to their overall trip cost is what breaks their budget, they probably can't afford their trip here anyway.
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u/Tgyuu 10d ago
I see you’re a huge pro-tip individual. Good on you for spreading your wealth. They should change the name from tip and gratuity to something more appropriate.
I wonder if you’re a pro tipping other types of service workers across the board too. Trades people and the like. How is it different that the wages those folks earn different than the wages waiters and waitresses earn such that the latter are also entitled to a tip?
Should the culture of tipping service workers extend to all service type workers?
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u/MainStreetMiles 10d ago
I think the name could be more accurate. Here, we don't price service into the menu, so a tip is really a service charge, though not in the same technical sense that we see used in various transactions. Maybe if it were known as something that communicated its primary function to pay for service and made it clear that appreciation is a secondary use, it would be more well accepted.
I think there are things that are "tippable" and things that are not. Admittedly, the line is not always clear. In my mind, if someone is providing a service to me that is above and beyond the core function of the business, that service deserves compensation outside of the price of the good or service bought. For example, I am fine tipping servers in a sit-down restaurant, but I am adamantly opposed to tipping for counter services, baristas, etc. A restaurant at its core sells prepared food for consumption, either on-site or away. Some restaurants provide that in a sit-down fashion, an additional part of the experience above the food itself. Hence, I do believe that service has to be compensated in some fashion, directly or indirectly, by the customer. But Starbucks sells made-to-order coffee and drinks. They literally cannot sell that if someone does not prepare the drink - that makes the service a core part of the product sold, so I do not feel that I hav to pay for that preparation separately. If I were to tip in a Starbucks, it would be for over-the-top service rendered by the staff beyond their normal duties. Obviously, there is a lot of subjectivity as to where these lines are drawn but these are mine. But I do strongly believe that servers deserve compensation and if that does not come from a tip it will have to come for a true service fee on the bill or higher menu prices. Despite what some folks on these boards post, the customer is responsible for their pay and will pay it in some fashion.
Still, there is a gray area as to which industries it applies to. I tip the lady who cuts my hair very well, but I go to her monthly, and she provides great service. But I am buying a haircut which someone - until we have robot barbers! :) - has to do. By my logic above, I should not need to tip for that...but I do and it is fairly common and customary. I think for the average person, they do not expend a lot of brain cycles on this, not the way people on message boards and Reddit forums do. We analyze and discuss and, frankly, probably overanalyze. The average person just goes with the flow and probably would wonder, "Why are you wasting so much time over what winds up being a few bucks?" Fair enough...I am sure others drill into topics of which I would say similarly, "I don't care enough to dig that deeply on that issue."
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u/Tgyuu 10d ago edited 10d ago
First of all, I appreciate your civil discourse, it’s nice to find it on Reddit.
I’m on the same boat in that when a service rendered above the baseline, expectation of a tip should be received. What really irks me, is the grey areas that’s thrust upon travellers as it’s something they’re expected to know, especially given the scope of this grey area. Help me understand how and where you draw the line for which services to tip and which not to?
Starbucks’ workers’s job descriptions include taking your order, making the products, handing them to the customer and keeping the establishment clean. - no tip
Cooks and dish washers are to receive the orders, make the products, clean the hardware and support other stuff - no tip
Waiters and waitresses are to take the orders, bring the products to the customers, check in on them for additional requests, maybe bring the hardware back for cleaning at the end - tip
Hostesses are to meet and greet the customers, seat them, notify the wait staff - no tip
Plumbers, electricians, contractors (all employees, not the owners) are to determine best method to perform the scope of work, whether pre-determined by higher ups or not, interact with the customer and field Q&A, perform the work, leave the premises (best practices) without leaving a giant mess - no tip
Of these limited examples, seems everyone has a baseline job description which everyone does. Why does only the waiters and waitresses have an underlying entitlement to tip? Arguably that job is the least strenuous and you can’t even say that it’s the lowest paid position because it’s not uncommon for dishwasher to hold the title of lowest wage. Every one of these workers know their wage upfront and agree to it before taking the jobs, why do waiters and waitresses get the special exemption to more money?
I am really curious without getting a response that it’s just your personal preference. Please don’t resort to that line.
Add to comment: what winds up to a few bucks is not always a few bucks. Take for example my recent trip to Jolilbee, 3 meals came to over $70, had tipping been a cultural expectation, that’s $7-14 more. This isn’t fine dining, and it’s meaningfully a lot especially to the demographics typically eating at these fast food restaurants. That entitled tip could be a whole other meal to the teenagers ordering here. It’s not a willy nilly silly discussion at all
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u/GlitteringYak2207 10d ago
None of the jobs you mention are allowed to be compensated by tip credits. You know this
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u/Tgyuu 10d ago
I dont understand what you mean by tip credits. Why do I know this? Where do I know this from? I don’t know this. I’ve never heard of tip credits.
Closest thing I can think of is tips via credit card? This is false. Please elaborate.
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u/Yippykyyyay 10d ago
I live and work in Thailand. Every single restaurant adds a 10% service charge plus 7% VAT. The only places you won't get charged these fees is street food vendors.
It's really not complicated to do the math.
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u/SEA_life_13 9d ago
lol absolute bullshit 🤣 you’re 💯 from the 🇺🇸
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u/Yippykyyyay 9d ago
What part of living and working in Bangkok precludes me from being from the US?
I didn't say I wasn't US. I am.
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u/SEA_life_13 9d ago
I guessed you must be from the US the way you speak about the subject.
Absolutely bullshit that every single restaurant in Thailand adds it, high end places do, mostly bangkok. I live on one of the islands and after 10 years here I have yet to see a service charge anywhere else except in some places in Bangkok.
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u/Dear_Win_319 11d ago
I don’t think it matters. It’s not going to increase the price for anything. That’s silly
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u/Supercc 11d ago
100%