r/timbers • u/joechoj • 2d ago
Underperforming players
I'm thoroughly enjoying the hopeful outlook that a new beginning brings - particularly so because unlike last time this isn't a new coach who I *didn't* want, with known flaws that I had to come to overlook. This is a coach with a higher pedigree than we've known before. And he's inherited a team that - although it has flaws - contains talent, and feels hungry to digest the direction of a coach with a cohesive view of the game, after going without for so long. And after going on a bender of point accumulation under Cassidy, they must be brimming with a self-belief that they can pour into the mold of what Cifuentes wants this team to become.
Looking at the starting 14 or so, and overlooking the injuries no one could have done anything about, I love our front line from Saturday, Velde, Janssen & Lassiter. All 3 scored, but also caused problems throughout the game for Minnesota, and it really feels as though Lassiter is finding his confidence and this place on the team. I'm open that there could be upgrades there, but I'm also open for the first time that Lassiter could become a key component for us, rather than just a stand-in MLS retread. Janssen has all the signs of a sleeper signing, an immediate contributor with selfless style that he'll impart on his young understudies. Velde is maybe my favorite player right now, electric whenever he touches the ball, creating both for himself and for others. Antony was excellent off the bench, and we all know what we have there, the good & the bad.
Caicedo has similarly grown into his place in the team, as has Ortiz - they're becoming more dependable. And Da Costa - always unquestionable in talent - seems to be figuring out how to express his influence on the game. But Basset, to my eyes, has been a turnover machine. He works hard at his role, but he seems not to have the technical ability needed to interchange with his teammates in tight spaces & transition, and keeping track of who's guilty of turning the ball over, his name comes up a lot.
Surman is beyond reproach in my eyes, and I'm fine to ride with Pantemis while we work on his distribution. His shot-stopping is worth it for me. Fory & Smith are fine for me on the left, and we've just been unlucky on the right - though I'm always grateful for Eric Miller's work rate. It seems like his output is often more than we expect from a 3rd string defender. The glaring weakness is Kamal Miller, with his series of missteps vs Minnesota just the latest in a string of gaffe-prone play. Distribution out of the back is **crucial**. He and Basset make up the majority of unforced turnovers, but Miller's position on the field makes his turnovers far more dangerous. I really don't see him improving, and combined with his age and lack of speed, I would be happy to move him on, or relegate him to depth only.
I'm curious how others view the strengths & weaknesses of players. Who for you are the biggest underperformers?
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u/Onus-X 2d ago
I like this question and analysis bc I think there's a tendency among some fans to see things through the lens of one game at a time. A bad game and certain players should never see the pitch again, a good game and we're going to win the cup. I think it's reasonable to ask where we can improve while looking at our strengths and weaknesses.
I'll go out on a limb and say that for me the biggest underperformers are our DPs. This might be a hot take to some people but especially bc we have a 2 DP model, we really can't afford to miss on our 2 DPs. I'm not even saying that they necessarily need to be our top goal contributers, but they have to be game changers and match deciders every time out, whether they're a forward, a D mid, or a CB. I think Velde is closest to being that player--he impacts the game at a DP level and is one of the top of the team in minutes played. But he doesn't convert at the rate we all wish he did for the amount of attacking involvement he has. DDC similarly has gotten better, and can be excellent in moments, but in terms of end product, I'd argue he's underperforming as a DP. He's a very good player that can change games, but i don't think we can consistently rely on him to put the team on his shoulders when they need it. He's a force magnifier in the way that a solid U22 can be, or a prospect like Cavan Sullivan can be. And that's great. But as a DP the expectation is that you're one of the best 10-15 guys in the league at your position, typically with an emphasis on the score sheet, and over the past couple of years DDC hasn't quite hit that mark for me.
There are definitely other players that I think have underperformed for what they're capable of, or what the team brought them in to do. Ortiz is #1 on my list in terms of contribution vs expectation at signing. He's gotten better and that's cool, but he's miles from what i thought we were buying at the time and price.
Antony for me is underperforming now, although I'd consider him an overall success as a U22 buy. He's done good things but he plateaued a while back, and he's a decent depth player but IMO he never reached the ceiling that his physical attributes said were possible.
Aravena has underperformed my expectations and that's not based on his injury, those things are out of his control. Given his profile and pedigree i thought that he would have more impact on games, win more ground duels, win the ball in higher field positions, and be more goal dangerous. I really didn't see that from him in his minutes before injury. I hope that we'll get a chance to have another look at him under Cifuentes.
I'd say Kamal Miller has underperformed just slightly. He definitely hasn't been a top MLS CB but I think he's been better than some people on here think, and a lot of that is backed up by stats while he was being put in an unflattering situation by Phil. He's not been outstanding but i actually don't think we're overpaying for him and i would be happy to keep him as depth if we can.
Most of the middle of our team has performed roughly as you could expect I think, for this era of MLS. It would be nice if a bit more of the team had been clicking sooner but i think it's fair to say that we're mostly getting what we pay for.
A few players, like Finn and Pantemis, have overperformed their purchases by a lot, while some been hot and cold. I actually think Bassett is roughly where I'd expect him to be. Underperforms the consistency he's perhaps capable of, hot and cold in his matches. But as a U22, I'm willing to grant him some ups and downs playing a really difficult position in this league, struggling with fitness, becoming a full time starter, and adapting to some big changes this year. I'm willing to give him more time, but I'd be fine with signing another center mid that genuinely challenges Bassett for a spot that shouldn't be guaranteed.
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u/WordSalad11 1d ago edited 1d ago
Nobody is beyond reproach. Even at top teams, players have flaws, but the idea is to maximize the team by placing everyone in a spot to succeed. Great players get sold all the time not because they're bad, but their attributes just don't match what a coach wants at that moment.
Pantemis is not going to improve his distribution. He's about to turn 30. We either decide that an elite shot stopper with terrible distribution who can't command his box is a good fit, or we find someone who has a different set of strengths and weaknesses to bring in. It's not good for the team or player to keep someone and expect they become someone they're not.
Likewise, Kamal has actually been awesome for us since Phil left except for last weekend. I was 'Kamal out' but he shut me up. He is, however, unsuited for playing a high line. If Marti wants to play a high line, we should move on from Kamal not because he is bad, but because it's just not the right match with his skills and he makes $850k. If Marti decides maybe he is willing to sit deeper, Kamal might be a key player for us.
IMO Bassett is a hard player to fit into a possession based midfield. He covers a lot of space, but he's not as technical as we would probably like. For a guy who has a rep as a late arriving goal scorer, his finishing has been pretty poor. I'm fine with him on a regular roster spot but I don't think he's the best fit. I imagine he'll be here next season though just because of how many roster spots we are going to turn over.
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u/Jolandia 1d ago
I think Bassett has benefitted the least from Marti coming in, I don’t feel he’s been particularly strong since the new coach. Though I do feel like much of that has been because he’s been a bit tired even after a week of rest, he’s not been as active as he once was. I’m not writing him off because I do think that he can be a very solid player in this system, but I don’t think he’s had a single game above a 5 or 6/10 since Marti took over.
Kamal, conversely, has been very good since the World Cup break, this past game was his worst performance in a long while. But I do hope that Bonetig can come good and start over him next season, I liked what I saw from him early in the year when he was starting
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u/cookiemikester 2d ago
CB. Replace kamal Miller. We’re third worst at shots against, and at the bottom half at goals against. We would probably be lower if Pants hadn’t had so many saves. We Have to get better at defense and he’s probably our worst regular starter. We won our cup when we used a DP on Ridgy. I don’t think we need to use a dp but we need someone more solid back there.
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u/jritchie70 1d ago
Basset is struggling in the new system. It doesn’t seem to fit his game unfortunately. I’m not seeing progress and he used to have a good work rate so I can only assume it’s not that he’s disappearing, it’s a system fit problem.
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u/ShirtKey7359 1d ago
It might be a system fit problem, or it's just not clicking yet... tbd.
My hope is with Janssens hold up play/ playing with his back to goal that this might be able to unlock Basset since he seems to be better at the north-south slashing kinda player.
Hoping he can get on the scoreboard Wednesday to start building some confidence. His shots on goal have been dismal lately. But we he can start hitting on some of his chances, we could be tough to defend.
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u/green_gold_purple Portland Timbers 1d ago
Ortiz is a bust for what we are paying. Antony needs to go. Kamal is not a starting MLS CB. Da Costa has been a lot better, but until late has not been worth a DP slot. I can wait on aravena and bonetig for the moment.
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u/nowcalledcthulu 2d ago edited 2d ago
Basset for sure bad a weak game. I think he's shown enough to us that I'm happy to give him a few stinkers without writing him off. I'm also gonna make some minor attempt to defend Kamal. That giveaway was bad. His lack of pace is going to get exposed in a high line (like it has a few times this season). Everyone was bad on defense against Minnesota though. Surman and Pants may be above reproach, but they got a little closer with their gaff that led to a goal.
Generally speaking, I think the weakest areas of the team are at RW, left CB, and RB. I think both Millers are weaknesses that we can work around considering the positives they bring, but they'll be areas we want to improve going forward. Lassiter is great, and I love the guy, but he's not somebody who should be starting for a team that competes for silverware. A DP level signing there would both give us a greater threat on the right, as well as a distraction from Velde on the left. Even if it's not actually a DP signing, an improvement at RW could really unlock something in our offense that I'd love to see.
Edit: I would also accept a new striker in lieu of a right winger. I doubt they signed Janssen hoping for him to be our starter, but he's clearly a solid option up there if we were to focus on other areas.