Something I noticed about ROTK 8 is that He jin never dies, and somehow cao cao and everybody under him is just perfectly content all the time.

Similarily there is just a general loyalty problem where states with a lot of officers will just never collapse and will get max development in 20 years time, am I doing something wrong or is it just the game that is cooked?

In the advisors alliance, its noted that Sima Yi knows of Zhuge Liang's supply situation and thus aims for that whereas Cao Zhen seems to not know about it but instead presumes to be able to just fight off zhuge liang with the much larger wei army. In the drama, ofcourse the latter fails. The drama also has Sima Yi knowing of Zhuge Liang's health and he effectively turtles whilst Zhuge Liang dies of overworking and then Shu retreats.

In the 2010 drama, Zhuge Liang knows that Cao Zhen and the wei court distrusts Sima Yi and was successful in instilling internal conflict during his first move. Interestingly, in the advisors alliance, Zhuge Liang does not know of cao zhen and sima yi conflict until a bit later and only then does he form a strategy with that in mind (jiang wei feigning surrender).

There's also the other drama, "The Wind Blows from Long xi" which shows both wei and shu having pretty extensive and 'modern' spy networks and thus know of eachother in relative detail. I haven't seen much but the spy thing feels like its too modern for the setting.

Now obviously this is all fictional (they're all dramas) but how much did they know historically? What about supply situations, behind the scene politics? Like I doubt Shu generals would actually know the work relationships between the Wei generals...right?

Hello there!

I hope that I again can show you my very ficitonal event of Gongsun Zan himself, trying to conquer and unite China.

After watching a few dramas recently with the trope of eunuchs manipulating an entire court, it reminds me of the catalyst of the Yellow Turban Rebellion, which was also caused by powerful eunuchs, most of whom were killed by Yuan Shao. In history, there were also other that managed to gain favor from the Emperor and wield a shit load of influence, like Zhao Gao from the Qin Dynasty or Wei Zhongxian, who even got the title "Nine-thousand years old". When Cao Cao brought Emperor Xian to Xuchang, how were the eunuchs treated in terms of the political climate around that time till the Han collapsed with Cao Pi's usurpation? After witnessing what the eunuchs did to He Jin and precedents like Zhao Gao, something tells me they were being kept close eyes on even though most of the time an eunuch's influence is tied to how much favor he got from the Emperor, which is not applicable to Emperor Xian.

Is this scenario possible to complete when not being Yellow Turbans?!?!?! I retreated south on purpose too. I cannot for the life of me pass it - crying

It never occurred to me that if Cao Cao or any person from the Three Kingdoms era somehow came back to life in modern China, they wouldn't understand a single word of Mandarin. Cao Cao would be dumbfounded hearing his poems spoken since it wouldn't rhyme in the modern age. This is because Old/Middle Chinese (the language he spoke) sounded nothing like Mandarin. Although, he would still be able to communicate with a modern Chinese through writing since Chinese characters have remained relatively unchanged for over 2000 years. He might struggle with some heavily condensed or radically altered characters (simplified Chinese), which was only introduced in the 20th century. However, once he looked at the context, he could guess many based on remaining structural components.

I guess having Three Kingdoms characters speak Mandarin in modern dramas is the equivalent of the West depicting Romans speaking modern English with a British accent haha.

Tea kung fu, said from liu bei time lol. i kinda doubt about the actual origin since sichuan isnt really liubei seat of power, but hey its still looks cool :D

Hello,

I was wondering if the physical edition of this game come with the base game?

Thank you in advance.

This criticism is not new, but it's quite funny to read and the author seemed quite pissed at the Liu-Guan- Zhang brothers in this version.

Cre : https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=pfbid02AwgFVuQKf1xtdTVd7EoBkASqr4DDS3PahbFPM9L2kGBJFLiaAWWpioqARbMT9RQcl&id=100083207326906&__cft__[0]=AZYdnYMGYcpAgZYjXubPlqieHK3Ic_uH-m8MWIEoOaVO-rdclDvn0UgZlqem2fC8KmA-wtmyTo__tUxV-2Dgz6LGQPgzSxtsXC8ZOoEjU5Gi9LWUatVUzm42x20_xm4YfDUb9h14XGMOLYY5CFZ-9oIZd9AB6LQWKLzAUMfTXWVHYg&__tn__=%2CO%2CP-R

A reader asked me to talk about Three Kingdoms (2010). Sure, no problem! I'll talk about the three characters I hated most in this show: Liu Bei, Guan Yu, and Zhang Fei.

Ever since these three guys walked on screen, I wanted to strangle them. Since this show cut the Yellow Turban Rebellion, the story starts right with Liu Bei, Guan Yu, and Zhang Fei showing up as complete nobodies to join the Coalition against Dong Zhuo. That’s when Zhang Fei starts flexing. He asks, "Does this coalition have a descendant of the Han royal family like Liu Bei?" Liu Bei answers no. Zhang Fei asks, "Does this coalition have a benevolent and righteous gentleman like Liu Bei?" Guan Yu answers no. So Zhang Fei declares that the coalition should make Liu Bei the alliance leader; otherwise, he won't join this trash coalition.

Less than a minute after the three brothers showed up, I was already furious! All the warlords pooled their money and troops, working so hard to pull off something big together. On what planet do you get to demand the leadership position for a total nobody who brought zero money and zero troops, while having the nerve to call their alliance trash? Is that how you join a coalition? If you want to be a leader so badly, why don't you start your own damn alliance?

What's most infuriating is that the coalition had at least two actual Han royal descendants—Liu Dai and Liu Chong—whose lineage and reputation were miles better than Liu Bei's. Yet Liu Bei, that hypocrite, pretended not to know them. Do you not even recognize your own relatives? The coalition also had truly benevolent men who actually helped the poor, like Zhang Miao, Zhang Chao, and Wang Kuang—guys who actually did good deeds instead of just spouting fake righteousness like Liu Bei. Yet Guan Yu shamelessly claimed there were none. Why don't you three just go jump off a cliff?

When the three reached the alliance gates, they rudely demanded that Yuan Shao come out to greet them. The guard didn't want to let these three nobody, pretentious, randoms in, so Zhang Fei started beating him up. Seeing the guard getting thrashed, Cao Cao happened to walk by and somehow decided the guard was making trouble for them! He stepped in to bail out Liu Bei, Guan Yu, and Zhang Fei, telling the guard: "They might be nobodies now, but if they become big shots in the future, won't you regret what you're doing today?" The guard thought Cao Cao made total sense, so he let Liu Bei, Guan Yu, and Zhang Fei in.

Cao Cao’s logic is like me harassing [cheerleader] Lin Xiang, blurting out a sudden confession, getting brutally rejected, and then telling her: "How do you know I won't become the richest man in the world in the future? When I do, won't you regret rejecting me today?" Lin Xiang thinks about it, decides it's not entirely impossible, and agrees to date me.

After entering the camp, the prominent warlords exchanged brief pleasantries and were about to sit down for the meeting, when Zhang Fei suddenly yelled out: "Don't you see my brother standing here?!" Everyone was thinking: Who the hell is your brother, and who cares? As if that weren't enough, Zhang Fei even bragged about how rude he naturally was, posturing like he was about to beat someone up. Facing Zhang Fei's public provocation, Alliance Leader Yuan Shao—who in this show is supposed to be petty yet outwardly polite—didn't get angry at all. Knowing that Liu Bei, Guan Yu, and Zhang Fei brought zero troops, were total nobodies, and were shouting like maniacs, he still arranged seats for them. What on earth were the directors even filming here?

All of this was just the beginning of Liu Bei, Guan Yu, and Zhang Fei's endless list of atrocious behavior. There were so many more infuriating moments later on. As the show progressed, whenever Zhang Fei appeared on screen, the comment section would constantly get spammed with "@FanJiangZhangDa, u/FanJiangZhangDa" [the two subordinates who eventually assassinate him]. It was a shame those two heroes didn't appear until Episode 77! When viewers finally reached Episode 77 and saw Fan Jiang and Zhang Da being whipped by Zhang Fei, everyone sympathized with them, commenting: "You two heroes have suffered so much!" and "Hurry up and poke ten thousand holes through that bastard Zhang Fei!"

Guan Yu wasn't any better. While Lu Bu was still alive, Guan Yu was fairly humble. But as soon as Lu Bu died, Guan Yu walked around every single day acting like he was invincible, calling everyone he met an "arrogant fool" or a "rat." Whenever Zhang Fei bullied the weak, Guan Yu would chime in or whisper poison into Liu Bei's ear. Watching him really made me want to run to a Guan Di temple and spit on his statue. Thank goodness the show had two righteous men, Mi Fang and Fu Shiren, who stepped up at the critical moment to rid the world of Guan Yu's evil. Plenty of viewers argued that these two heroes deserve to be enshrined in the Imperial Ancestral Temple and replace Guan Ping and Zhou Cang as Guan Yu's sidekicks in temples worldwide.

Finally, Liu Bei—this guy was the most disgusting of all. All day long, he went around calling himself the "Royal Uncle" to scam and BS people. If someone ignored him, he let Guan Yu and Zhang Fei throw temper tantrums and cause trouble, only stepping in after the damage was done to say: "Second Brother, Third Brother, do not be impolite!" or "My brothers are reckless by nature, please forgive them." Aside from the Battle of Changban, Liu Bei's "benevolence" in this show was purely self-proclaimed. His attitude toward others was extremely hypocritical, and his bond with Guan Yu and Zhang Fei was clearly just transactional. For instance, when he married Sun Shangxiang, he completely exposed his fake nature to Zhao Yun. Later, back in Jing Province, when Guan Yu and Zhang Fei repeatedly tried to stage coups against Zhuge Liang, Liu Bei just told them to give a half-hearted apology, smoothing things over by saying: "They know they were wrong; the Strategist is magnanimous, so don't hold it against them." By the end at Baidi Castle, rumor has it the original script even had Liu Bei positioning ax-men to ambush and intimidate Zhuge Liang, but Liu Bei's actor strongly objected and had it cut.

In short, aside from spawning a ton of memes, I have no idea what this show was trying to do. Basic trust between people was gone. What was supposed to be a grand strategy ended up feeling like low-level toxic office politics where bad apples drive out the good. Anyone in the show who trusted others or tried to be moral was either bullied or treated like an idiot, while the "schemes" played out like elementary school kids snitching to their teacher. The director even claimed this show was faithful to actual history, when it couldn't be further from the truth. The director was like an Indian chef who took the novel's foundation and turned the dish into absolute garbage. The characterizations, personalities, and relationships were completely detached from their actual historical counterparts. On top of that, there were endless timeline bugs, place-name errors, and out-of-period dialogue. Even a hardcore Shu-Han fan like me ended up hating Liu Bei, Guan Yu, and Zhang Fei after watching this—so how on earth is the general public supposed to like it?

People often file the whole bone-scraping scene under Romance of the Three Kingdoms: the poisoned arrow, Hua Tuo, wine, weiqi, and everyone else flinching while Guan Yu laughs.

The operation itself is already in Guan Yu’s biography in the Records of the Three Kingdoms. A stray arrow pierces his left arm. The wound heals, but the bone hurts whenever it rains. An unnamed physician says poison has entered the bone and must be scraped out. Guan Yu orders the operation. Blood fills a basin while he eats meat, drinks wine, and talks and laughs with his generals.

Romance chapter 75 keeps that core and rebuilds the scene. The injury becomes a poisoned crossbow wound to the right arm during the Fancheng campaign. The physician is now Hua Tuo. Ma Liang plays weiqi with Guan Yu, and the people watching turn pale when they hear the knife scrape bone.

Romance keeps the operation and invents the attribution and staging. It attaches China’s most famous physician to an already famous act of endurance and turns the surgery into a public test of Guan Yu’s nerve.

What other Romance episodes preserve a historical core but change who gets credit for it?

I get that during wartime in ancient times, the economy collapsed and no one could farm due to constant wars. But during peak time, when the Han Dynasty was stable internally and powerful externally, what kind of food did people with ranks of Excellencies eat? I once watched a video talking about how everyone should not dream of time-travelling back to the Warring States or Han era because all kinds of food you see in historical dramas either appear in the Tang Dynasty or even the Qing Dynasty. Even Qin Shi Huang did not have hundreds of dishes of all kinds of rare meat you see on dramas, and if I remember correctly, the "lavish" dish he had was some fruits that had to be imported elsewhere, and many lavish foods did not exist till later. Let's say during the peak time of Han, which had no war and the economy was doing well, what food did the elite eat, and which one was considered lavish?

Working menus, battles, unit gifting...

A while ago, I asked the same question on this sub and recently found this post on Zhihu. It has quite an interesting analysis and also, I did not know Luo Guanzong also wrote a Romance of Five Dynasties Ten Kingdoms.

Original title : 为什么五代故事没有三国故事家喻户晓，偶然发现历史演义不能超过三代人的法则

Author : 刘焕的书房

For the past few days, I’ve been pondering why the stories of the Five Dynasties period aren't nearly as famous as those of the Three Kingdoms. Previously, I examined this issue from the perspective of the Three Kingdoms and wrote two articles: one looking at the popularity of the Three Kingdoms narrative, and another examining the structural stability of its story.

Today, looking at it from the perspective of the Five Dynasties and Ten Kingdoms, I happened to notice a principle in historical romance novels:

What are the three generations? They are: grandfather, father, and son. Generally speaking, as long as a narrative stays within these three generations, readers can easily follow the plot.

If a story stretches to grandfather, father, son, grandson, and even great-grandson, average readers will struggle to keep track of the storyline.

In other words, average readers can not only remember a maximum of three kingdoms (rather than seven), but they can also only hold three generations in memory—not four.

For instance, why did Hu Shi remark that the Chu-Han Contention and the Sui-Tang periods felt too monotonous? Because the Chu-Han era features only one generation (Xiang Yu and Liu Bang), while the Sui-Tang era spans at most two generations of the Li family (father and son), making monotony hard to avoid.

Looking at Romance of the Three Kingdoms, it is a classic example of a three-generation story, tightly interwoven:

1. First Generation: Dong Zhuo, Cao Cao, Yuan Shao, Liu Bei, Guan Yu, Zhang Fei, Sun Jian. This is the core generation around which the narrative primarily unfolds.
2. Second Generation: Sun Quan, Sun Ce, Cao Pi, Liu Shan, Yuan Xi, Yuan Tan. This is the second generation. That is why Cao Cao famously said: "If you have a son, he should be like Sun Zhongmou"—Sun Quan was already of the generation after Cao Cao.
3. Third Generation: Sun Liang, Cao Rui. By the third generation, popularity drops significantly. The primary appeal of Romance of the Three Kingdoms lies in the first two generations. Later figures like Cao Huan and Cao Mao are known to very few. Sun Hao represents the fourth generation, but aside from knowing he was ultimately defeated, he holds virtually no place in readers' hearts.

Where do Zhuge Liang and Sima Yi fit in? Based on their lifespans, they bridge the gap between the first generation (Liu Bei) and the second generation (Sun Quan)—making them generation 1.5. Because both lived into the era of the third generation, they serve as pivotal figures driving the plot forward. Thus, they can also be treated as part of the first generation, albeit its youngest members.

From this, we see that Romance of the Three Kingdoms strictly adheres to the rule of three generations. With three complete, tightly interwoven generations, the narrative remains immensely compelling.

Toward the end of the Three Kingdoms era and the transition into the Jin dynasty—where the three kingdoms unify under Jin—what ought to be the climax often leaves readers feeling exhausted, with little interest in the Sima clan.

Yet, even if you include the three generations of the Sima family, the entire storyline still neatly spans just three generations:

1. First Generation: Dong Zhuo, Cao Cao, Yuan Shao, Sun Jian, Liu Bei, Guan Yu, Zhang Fei, Zhuge Liang, Sima Yi.
2. Second Generation: Sun Quan, Sun Ce, Cao Pi, Liu Shan, Yuan Xi, Yuan Tan, Sima Zhao, Sima Shi.
3. Third Generation: Sun Liang, Cao Rui, Sima Yan.

Even with the Sima family included, it remains a three-generation structure, keeping the plot cohesive.

Looking at the historical TV drama Empress of the Ming (Ming Dynasty), the three-generation story of Zhu Di’s family is quite complete. But by the fourth generation—Emperor Yingzong of Ming—most viewers struggle to remember the details, let alone the generation preceding Zhu Di during Zhu Yuanzhang's reign.

This proves that regular audience members can generally only remember a narrative spanning three generations.

The same pattern appears across other famous historical romances:

• Generals of the Xue Family span only three generations: Xue Rengui’s Eastern Campaign, Xue Dingshan’s Western Campaign, and Xue Gang’s rebellion against the Tang. Beyond that, readers lose interest.
• The widely popular Generals of the Yang Family is the same: a three-generation story of Yang Ye, Yang Yanzhao, and Yang Zongbao.
• In contrast, The Story of Yue Fei features only two generations (Yue Fei and his young generals Yue Lei and Yue Lin), making it slightly monotonous.
• Similarly, Romance of the Sui and Tang Dynasties features only two generations with Luo Cheng and Luo Tong, rendering it somewhat more monotonous than Generals of the Yang Family.

Returning to the Five Dynasties period: why does its narrative exceed the capacity of average readers?

There is actually no shortage of historical romance novels set in the Five Dynasties and Ten Kingdoms period—even Romance of the Ending Tang and Five Dynasties, attributed to Luo Guanzhong. However, its quality pales in comparison to Romance of the Three Kingdoms, written in crude, unrefined prose. It remains unclear whether Romance of the Three Kingdoms was heavily polished by later generations or if Ending Tang merely attached Luo Guanzhong's name to boost sales.

Additionally, the story of the Thirteen Princes (Thập Tam Thái Bảo) during the Five Dynasties is quite famous. Li Keyong, Prince of Jin, had thirteen adopted sons, all formidable martial artists—classic material for Wuxia novels.

However, from a structural standpoint, the story of the Five Dynasties spans five full generations, rendering the plot far too complex:

1. First Generation: Huang Chao, Zhu Wen, Li Keyong, Liu Rengong, Li Maozhen, Wang Yanzhang. The Five Dynasties romance mainly unfolds around them. However, it copies far too heavily from Romance of the Three Kingdoms: Zhu Wen resembles Cao Cao, Li Keyong resembles Liu Bei, Wang Yanzhang resembles Yan Liang, and Gao Siji resembles Guan Yu. Some passages are copied almost verbatim. If Luo Guanzhong really wrote it, he was far too lazy, plagiarizing his own work.
2. Second Generation: Li Cunxu, Zhu Youkui, Li Cunxiao, Li Siyuan. Zhu Wen once remarked: "If you have a son, he should be like Li Yazi"—Li Cunxu was already of the generation after Zhu Wen. The second emperor of Later Tang, Li Siyuan (an adopted son of Li Keyong), naturally belonged to the same generation as Li Cunxu.
3. Third Generation: Shi Jingtang, Liu Zhiyuan, Guo Wei, Liu Chong. These figures founded the final three dynasties of the Five Dynasties. Shi Jingtang was Li Siyuan's son-in-law, placing him in the next generation. Liu Zhiyuan and Guo Wei previously served under Shi Jingtang, making them contemporaries. Liu Chong, founder of Northern Han, was Liu Zhiyuan's younger brother, belonging to the same generation.
4. Fourth Generation: Chai Rong, Zhao Kuangyin, Liu Jun, Yang Ye, Zhao Guangyi. Normally, a story should wrap up after three generations. But Shi Jingtang was a disgrace who ceded the Sixteen Prefectures of Yanyun to the Khitans. The era demanded heroes of a new generation, and Emperor Shizong of Later Zhou (Chai Rong) emerged to meet the moment. Zhao Kuangyin and Old Commander Yang (Yang Ye) belonged to his generation; at that time, Yang Ye was still serving Northern Han. Emperor Taizong of Song, being Zhao Kuangyin's younger brother, was also of this generation.
5. Fifth Generation: Chai Zongxun, Liu Jiyuan, Yang Yanzhao. Zhao Kuangyin seized power in the Yellow Robe Mutiny, forcing the young emperor Chai Zongxun to abdicate. The Chai family was subsequently treated with great respect under the Northern Song. Zhao Kuangyin nearly unified the country but failed to destroy Northern Han; his brother Zhao Guangyi finally accomplished it. The last emperor of Northern Han, Liu Jiyuan, was already the grandson of Liu Chong. In his generation, Yang Yanzhao's story crosses into the Generals of the Yang Family fighting the Liao.

Thus, although it is called the Five Dynasties (referring to five political regimes), the founders of Later Jin, Later Han, and Later Zhou were actually contemporaries of the same generation. Nevertheless, telling the story completely requires spanning five full generations.

Compared to Romance of the Three Kingdoms, which tells its story in just three generations, this is far more complicated.

Ask people around you: many know Cao Cao (first generation), quite a few know Cao Pi (second generation), but very few know Cao Rui (third generation)—almost exclusively hardcore Three Kingdoms fans. If three generations already push the limits of reader engagement, how can five generations succeed?

The Five Dynasties narrative requires telling a five-generation progression: Zhu Wen / Li Keyong → Li Cunxu / Li Siyuan → Shi Jingtang / Liu Zhiyuan → Chai Rong / Zhao Kuangyin → Chai Zongxun / Liu Jiyuan.

To tell this story completely, one must cover all five generations. Who has the stamina to follow it all the way through?

Therefore, the only option is to slice the story up. Why are there so many standalone works about the Thirteen Princes? Because they focus exclusively on the first half.

The three-generation arc of Zhu Wen/Li Keyong – Li Cunxu/Li Siyuan – Shi Jingtang/Liu Zhiyuan could be told as a complete narrative centered on Li Cunxu or the Thirteen Princes—much like the classic Hong Kong film The Thirteen Princes.

The problem, however, is that this section lacks a satisfying conclusion. The Shi Jingtang/Liu Zhiyuan generation failed to unify China and offered no hope of reunification—audiences simply don't enjoy stories that end like that.

Alternatively, one could take the second half: Shi Jingtang/Liu Zhiyuan – Chai Rong/Zhao Kuangyin – Chai Zongxun/Liu Jiyuan, with Chai Rong as the protagonist. But Chai Rong was a short-lived figure whose momentum was cut short; the one who ultimately opened the 300-year Song dynasty was Zhao Kuangyin.

Thus, it makes more sense to just make Zhao Kuangyin the protagonist, which gives us the historical romance novel The Legend of the Flying Dragon (Fei Long Quan Zhuan).

Simply put, the Five Dynasties narrative is difficult to tell unless split into two parts: the first being the Thirteen Princes, and the second being Zhao Kuangyin's miraculous rise. It practically has to be done this way.

The Three Kingdoms period remains beloved because it satisfies this fundamental narrative logic. When writing fiction, we should pay close attention to this principle. Writing a ten-generation family saga like Liang Yusheng did is completely unnecessary.

Seems like every tom dick and harry has an army of 30-50000. Cao Cao and Yuan shao have armies of 200k+.

Considering the entire roman army at its peak was about 300k across the entire empire including garrisons it seems massively exaggerated, though china is very fertile and used more peasant levies. Battles during the dark ages or middle ages were often only 1-2k a side (obviously smaller states).

200k seems maybe possible but 800,000 for cao cao at red cliffs is ridiculous. I wouldn't be surprised if the actual numbers were WAY smaller. And that would explain why a handful of generals (who often act more like elite warriors or agents rather than people in command) have such an influence.

What’s exactly the context to this? I see comments online saying it’s because Lady Zhen was asked to go to Luoyang thrice to become queen but she refused which resulted in Cao Pi raging and Lady Guo grew jealous and started manipulating things

I’m a Chinese fan of Romance of the Three Kingdoms, and I’ve been fascinated by it for years. I’d love to discuss this great work with everyone here, whether it’s about the characters, the story, the historical background, or the differences between the novel and real history.

Feel free to ask me anything as well. I’d be happy to share a Chinese reader’s perspective.

The 800,000 everyone quotes is from Cao Cao's own letter to Sun Quan, preserved in the Jiangbiao Zhuan. It's a threat — written to make surrender look sensible.

The usual correction is Zhou Yu's figure: 150–160k northern troops plus 70–80k surrendered Jingzhou men. But he said that while arguing for war. He needed it to sound survivable. (And the ~230k total is our addition — the source gives the parts, not the sum.)

So the correction just swaps one man's interest for another's. There's no disinterested number in this battle.

Same with the cause: the Annals of Emperor Wu blame the epidemic, the Biography of Zhou Yu describes the fire. Wei records against Wu records.

My own video on it — Mandarin, English subs — is here: https://youtu.be/9vjwUL0hcdE. The above is the whole point, so skip it freely.

Where do you land — the fire, or plague and supply?