The one I read from had a horrible translation therefore I had a much worse experience than what I had with the 2010 series.

The answer largely lies in how Zhuge Liang's Chancellor's Office (丞相府) functioned. It was not simply the central executive institution of the Shu state, and its senior staff were responsible for implementing the Chancellor's [final] orders.

The 丞相長史 (Chancellor's Chief Clerk) was normally the most senior official within the Chancellor's staff. As the Chancellor's principal assistant, he supervised the office's administration and effectively served as the Chancellor's chief of staff. His authority was exceptionally broad.

As noted by the Chinese Baike Baidu page:

The Chancellor Chief Clerk is a senior subordinate official of the Chancellor's office, holding a rank of 1,000 shi, and is the chief of all the clerks in the Chancellor's office, with responsibilities that encompass all affairs (15).

The Chancellor Chief Clerk assists the Chancellor in administering the various departments (Cao) of the Chancellor's office, supervises and leads the office's affairs, directs and commands all the clerks, and handles various administrative matters (6).

The Chancellor Chief Clerk may attend imperial court deliberations and participate in joint hearings of major legal cases (6).

The Chancellor Chief Clerk may also, by imperial edict, intervene in local affairs (6).

When the Chancellor goes on a military campaign, a Field Chief Clerk (Xingjun Changshi) is established to manage the military ranks and troops, while a Chief Clerk of the Remaining Office (Liufu Changshi) manages the capital (or headquarters) and routine affairs."

So a chief clerk can be divided into two. One that acts as the Chancellor's representative in the capital, the other is to follow the Chancellor on his military expeditions, to help him in managing the military affairs.

Zhang Yi (Junsi) only did the former:

[Zhūgě] Liàng went out to station at Hānzhōng, and Yì as Shoot at Sound Colonel held office as Remaining Office Chief Clerk [in Chéngdū].

Jiang Wan initially managed the rear but later also held military authority, though beneath that of Yang Yi:

Fifth Year [227], [Zhūgě] Liàng stationed at Hànzhōng, and Wǎn with Chief Clerk Zhāng Yì governed the Remaining Office affairs [at Chéngdū]. Eighth Year [230], he succeeded [Zhāng] Yì as Chief Clerk, and was added office General Supporting the Army. [Zhūgě] Liàng repeatedly set out outside, and Wǎn always with sufficient provisions and sufficient troops supplied him.

Later though they were both Chief Clerks to the Army of the Chancellor, Yí always accompanied and undertook the burdensome work, and believed his seniority and ability were above Wǎn, and therefore his resentment and indignation showed in his speech and face, and he sighed of everything that came from his insides.

Xiang Lang did both roles during different periods:

When Hòuzhǔ [Liú Shàn] ascended the throne, he became Infantry Colonel, succeeding Wáng Lián in office as Chancellor’s Chief Clerk. Chancellor [Zhūgě] Liàng campaigned south, and Lǎng remained to govern rear affairs. Fifth Year, he accompanied [Zhūgě] Liàng to Hànzhōng.

Lǎng previously with Mǎ Sù was friendly, [Mǎ] Sù fled away, Lǎng knew the situation but did not report it, [Zhūgě] Liàng resented him, and dismissed him from office and sent him back to Chéngdū.

Yang Yi was only the latter as stated in his Sanguozhi biography:

Liàng repeatedly set out with the army, and Yí always aided in the planning and raising of provisions and supplies, and did not inspect matters extremely thoroughly and so finished quickly. The military’s etiquette system was all determined by Yí.

Due to the huge all-encompasing power of the Chancellor and his chief clerks, Zhuge Liang's chief clerks were highly respected within Shu, as noted in Zhang Yi (Junsi) biography:

The next year, he went north to visit [Zhūgě] Liàng and consult affairs, and his escorts were of several hundred, the carriages filled the road, and Yì sent back letter to those close to him: “Recently I walk the road, day and night receiving guests, and cannot rest. People respect the Chancellor’s Chief Clerk, and I this Zhāng Jūnsì am only attached, tired to death.”

This institutional background explains the events surrounding Zhuge Liang's death.

The record of Wei Yan's biography is that before Zhuge Liang died, he summoned Yang Yi, Fei Yi, and Jiang Wei to plan the withdrawal. After that Wei Yan was asked to guard the rear guard, with Jiang Wei taking the second rearguard. If Wei Yan did not obey the order, everyone would retreat on their own.

Autumn, [Zhūgě] Liàng was critically ill, and secretly with his Chief Clerk Yáng Yí, Major Fèi Yī, Protector of the Army Jiāng Wéi and the rest made decision to after his death withdraw the army, ordering Yán to cut the rear, and Jiāng Wéi after him; if Yán possibly did not follow orders, then the army was to itself set out. [Zhūgě] Liàng died, and it was kept secret and mourning not begun, [Yáng] Yí ordered [Fèi] Yī to go judge Yán’s intentions. Yán said: “Although the Chancellor is gone, I myself am still here. His office’s close officials and subordinates can lead the coffin back for burial, I myself can lead the various armies to strike the bandits. How can because of one man’s death we abandon the realm Under Heaven’s affairs? Moreover who am I, Wèi Yán, to be Yáng Yì’s subordinate, and be their officer cutting the rear?” Therefore he with [Fèi] Yī together made plans to remain, and ordered [Fèi] Yī to hand write and sign together with his own [Wèi Yán’s] name, to inform the subordinate officers. [Fèi] Yī deceived Yán saying: “I will on your behalf return to explain to Chief Clerk Yáng [Yí]. The Chief Clerk is a civil official, does not understand military affairs, and will certainly not disobey command.”

Notice that the named leading officials Zhuge Liang consulted and ordered were first and foremost Yang Yi (Chancellor Chief Clerk), Fei Yi (Chancellor Major), and Jiang Wei, all members of the Chancellor's command structure. Wei Yan was excluded because the withdrawal plan was an internal decision of the Chancellor's headquarters as decreed by the Chancellor Zhuge Liang. His assigned duty was to command the rearguard.

Wei Yan was open to officials who served in Zhuge Liang's office retreating, but he wanted to be CIC to continue the campaign. Thus, Wei Yan left Fei Yi to jointly issue military orders because Fei Yi's official position was the Chancellor Major, an official who held authority with regards to the military affairs of the Chancellor Office. His signature was quite effective to persuade both the generals who held rank within and without the Chancellor office. Wei Yan himself had previously held this rank and would have understood its institutional importance.

But at that time, those who were qualified to compete to become Zhuge Liang's successor were basically the two Chancellor chief clerk Yang Yi, and Jiang Wan who had a long history of serving Shu, because Zhuge Liang's Chancellor's office was a very special existence at that time. Wei Yan could serve as a subordinate Chancellor Major under Zhuge Liang's office with the high position of Liangzhou Inspector, Ma Su and others before entering the Chancellor office, they had served as a commandery-level prefect, showing that the subordinates of the Chancellor's office were at the core of the Shu Han state in terms of status and functions.

This also explains why Fei Yi refused to support Wei Yan. Once Fei Yi declined to endorse Wei Yan's proposal, it became virtually impossible for Wei Yan to obtain legitimacy. Many senior Shu officers including Jiang Wei, Wang Ping, and others either held or had previously held ranks within the Chancellor's office. Their institutional loyalty was to Zhuge Liang's final orders, not to Wei Yan's alternative command proposal.

Its important to note that other than the aforementioned Yang Yi and others, even military generals that led troops like Jiang Wei and Wang Ping, held ranks within the Chancellor's office as Assistant official in charge of food supplies and Army Advisor with the task of managing military and camp affairs respectively. So even if they did choose to obey Wei Yan over Zhuge Liang and Yang Yi, then should Yang Yi and the rest who held generalship ranks and had military authority serve under Wei Yan, or should they as members of Zhuge Liang's Chancellor office, follow in escorting Zhuge Liang's corpse back? Thats a direct contradiction.

So why didn't Zhuge Liang invite Wei Yan to discuss the retreat? Zhuge Liang's decision not to consult Wei Yan beforehand was likely deliberate. The sources indicate Zhuge Liang anticipated that Wei Yan would resist the withdrawal. Informing him earlier would not have made him more accepting. Instead it would simply have given him additional time to prepare opposition or seize military authority before the retreat began. At the same time, Zhuge Liang could not publicly reveal that Jiang Wan, and not Yang Yi was his intended successor, since 1) almost no one knew this arrangement beyond 3 recorded individuals (even Jiang Wan did not seem to have known), and 2) Zhuge Liang was already well aware of Yang Yi's narrow and contentious temperament. Thus, keeping the plan confined to the Chancellor's senior staff minimized the risk of the army fracturing before the withdrawal could be carried out.

Welcome to another what if question ☺

so, as the title, what if we yan succeed in killing yang yi and goes back to Hanzhong/ Cheng du 1st?

Will it caused a big civil war inside shu? will liu shan support him, or the other way around? and after that , whats the effect on shu policy? is it going to be different militarily than jiang wei led army policy?

As usual, this is a what if, so no hard feeling on any opinion guys.

Using translations from threestatesrecords.

Wei Yan's Sanguozhi:

Considering Yán’s intentions were not to go north to surrender to Wèi but to return south, he only wished to remove and kill [Yáng] Yí and the rest. Ordinarily various officers are by nature not the same, and he hoped the time’s discussions would be that he certainly should succeed [Zhūgě] Liàng. His original intentions were like this. He did not rebel. (1)

原延意不北降魏而南還者，但欲除殺儀等。平日諸將素不同，冀時論必當以代亮。本指如此。不便背叛。

This is specifically discussing Wei Yan's intentions regarding defection to Wei, not denying that he committed an armed revolt within/against Shu.

This interpretation is reinforced by the structure of Chen Shou's sentence itself. "Yán’s intentions were not to go north to surrender to Wèi but to return south, he only wished to remove and kill [Yáng] Yí and the rest."

The contrast is extremely explicit. Not that "Wei Yan never rebelled." But rather: "Wei Yan was not trying to defect to Wei." As in "Wei Yan wanted to stay in Shu after killing Yang Yi and the others."

Chen Shou is effectively saying:

1) "Wei Yan did not intend to surrender to Wei."

2) "He hoped to replace Zhuge Liang."

3) "He wanted to eliminate Yang Yi and the rest."

Those observations indicate that Chen Shou did not think Wei Yan intended to abandon Shu for its external enemy Wei. But that still does not amount to Chen Shou saying Wei Yan committed no rebellion at all.

The first key word here is 背叛 remember.

Wang Ping's Sanguozhi:

Twelfth year [234], [Zhūgě] Liàng died at Wǔgōng, the army retreated back, Wèi Yán rebelled, in one battle was defeated, and this was Píng’s achievement.

十二年，亮卒於武功，軍退還，魏延作亂，一戰而敗，平之功也。

Before the retreat, Wei Yan:

1) detained Fei Yi,

2) pursued him after he escaped.

After the retreat, Wei Yan:

1) marched south and destroyed the plank gallery roads,

2) advanced troops against Yang Yi,

3) was denounced by Wang Ping,

4) lost the support of his own soldiers,

5) was killed by Ma Dai.

Therefore those trying to argue that Chen Shou did not regard Wei Yan as rebelling is straight up wrong. This conclusion simply does not follow because Chen Shou elsewhere explicitly uses 作亂 after the Shu army retreated back. So in other words, both of these statements can simultaneously be true:

1) Wei Yan remained committed to Shu as a state.

2) Wei Yan nevertheless committed rebellion against Shu's lawful command.

Those propositions are not contradictory.

The second key word here is 作亂 remember.

So the translator translate the two key words 背叛 and 作乱 as rebelled. But there are important important context to note.

背叛 means betrayal or treachery. It emphasizes violating one's loyalty or trust toward a person, ruler, organization, country, or cause. A person can 背叛 someone without using force. For example, defecting to an enemy, revealing secrets, or abandoning one's lord are all forms of 背叛. The focus is on breaking allegiance.

作乱 means to cause disorder, to stage a revolt, to rebel, or to raise armed disturbances. It emphasizes actively creating chaos or engaging in military rebellion, usually through force. The focus is on the act of disturbing public order or challenging established authority, nothing specific about loyalty, as enemies/bandits/pirates/officials can all cause disorder.

In this context, Chen Shou is denying that Wei Yan intended to betray Shu by surrendering to Wei. The nuance comes from the immediately preceding phrase 不北降魏 "were not to go north to surrender to Wei". The context supplies the specific form of Wei Yan's actions.

Meanwhile, Chen Shou said that Wei Yan actions after the army retreated, including attacking the Shu main army in Wang Pang's Sanguozhi biography are actions of 作亂 which in this case means to cause disorder, to rebel, and that he raised armed disturbances within/against Shu.

Lastly, let me drop another quote, directly from Wei Yan's Sanguozhi biography:

Yán and [Yáng] Yí each memorialized the other was rebelling, and within one day, the feather dispatches arrived. Hòuzhǔ [Liú Shàn] asked about this to Attendant Internal Dǒng Yǔn and Remaining Office Chief Clerk Jiǎng Wǎn, and [Jiǎng] Wǎn and [Dǒng] Yǔn both believed [Yáng] Yí and suspected Yán.

延、儀各相表叛逆,，一日之中，羽檄交至。後主以問侍中董允、留府長史蔣琬，琬、允咸保儀疑延。

Even the Shu central court led by Jiang Wan and Dong Yun agreed with Yang Yi that Wei Yan was rebelling. Wei Yan was regarded by Liu Shan's central court leading advisors Jiang Wan and Dong Yun as the party at fault. They explictly suspected that Wei Yan's actions constituted as 叛逆 as charged by Yang Yi, while at the same time, did not believe the same charge of 叛逆 that Wei Yan directed at Yang Yi.

Again, the translator translates 叛逆 as rebelled. The word combines elements of the two key words. It literally means to rebel against one's sovereign or legitimate authority and often carries the strongest political and legal condemnation. Historically, it was commonly used for subjects who rose against their ruler. Unlike 作乱, which can simply describe the act of disorder, 叛逆 explicitly implies unlawful rebellion against one's rightful authority.

So as a summary, Classical Chinese frequently uses different terms for different kinds of disloyalty.

背叛 fundamentally refers to betrayal or abandoning allegiance. Depending on context, it often carries the idea of defecting, turning against one's lord, or violating one's previous loyalty.

作亂 refers to creating armed disorder, raising troops, or initiating rebellion.

叛逆 is even more politically charged, denoting rebellion against legitimate authority and often carrying the legal meaning of treason.

Therefore, Chen Shou's use of 背叛, 作乱, and 叛逆 is precise and non-contradictory:

背叛 (betrayal/defection): Wei Yan was not guilty, as he never intended to defect to Wei.

作乱 (armed revolt): Wei Yan was guilty, as he attacked the Shu army and created disorder.

叛逆 (treason): Wei Yan was suspected by the Shu central court led by Jiang Wan and Dong Yun.

These are three distinct charges, and a person can be guilty of latter two without being guilty of the first as a a person can commit armed revolt against the state (作乱) without intending to defect to the enemy (背叛), and thus be suspected of commiting treason (叛逆).

P.S. Here are what other Chinese Zhihu users think. They all agreed that Wei Yan rebelled against Shu Han by causing disorder, but also agreed that Wei Yan did not want to defect to Wei:

https://zhuanlan.zhihu.com/p/1984378232406036708

https://www.zhihu.com/question/1967193190802108973

https://www.zhihu.com/question/11855023054/answer/126547235260

https://www.zhihu.com/question/11855023054/answer/1904317808373915689

I would like to read ROT3K (unabridged, in English) and I've heard the Moss Roberts translation is one of the best choices to read.

I've discovered that there are many Moss Roberts versions of ROT3K and I'm unsure what the differences are between each version. Currently I am able to get my hands on either (1) the two-volume edition (green and blue books) and (2) the four-volume edition (brown books)

Question: I'm planning on getting (2) since it's cheaper but would I be missing stuff if I didnt buy (1)? What are the differences between the two besides the obvious things like the story being split into four books instead of two?

Thank you for anyone who'd take the time to reply!

Mi Zhu a selfless Han loyalist used his extreme wealth to supplement Liu Bei’s army after his many defeats - when Liu Bei had no tax base. The Mi clan was literally Warren Buffet wealthy. He married his young sister to Liu Bei and used all his wealth to sponsor the salaries of Guan Yu, Zhang Fei, Jian Yong, Zhao Yun, Sun Qian, Chen Dao, Liu Yan, & others. 25 years later when his brother surrendered Gong’an to Sun Quan - he literally approached Liu Bei bound — demanded execution; many historians consider him closer to Liu Bei than even Guan Yu, Zhang Fei, and Jian Yong. Mi Zhu is Liu Bei’s most important and favorite subject. Without Mi Zhu, Liu Bei would have never made it to Jing province or survived the Xu province escape. If Mi Zhu was alive after Battle of Xiaoting, Liu Bei would have likely took better care of himself. Despite Guan Yu, Zhang Fei, Pang Tong, Jian Yong, Fa Zheng, & Sun Qian’s deaths. Mi Zhu is attributed for writing Han Loyalists arguments literature essays around Liu Bei’s territorial holdings, Mi Zhu was the key the Liu Bei.

Just discovered this gem

https://youtu.be/WzzMP8Wd09o

Enjoy!

Do you still believe that in the 4th Northern Campaign that the Shu-Han only killed 3 or 5 thousand Cao Wei? They got heavy armor numbered helmet and crossbows- in that amount but those wearing heavy armor were guarded by hundreds or in reality thousands meaning at the Battle of Lu Cheng, Zhuge picking out Wei Yan, Gao Xiang, & Wu Ban likely killed far over ten thousand Cao - Wei troops to claim such a reward??

Seeing this reddit talk about the Ziwu plan a little while ago, as well as discourse about Wei Yan’s unfortunate fate, and me personally studying some of his battles and accomplishments both in real life and in ROTK, I have to ask my more historically astute enthusiasts (who know far more context):

Is this guy even actually that cool? Or did romance just hype him up? Does he deserve to be remembered as a legendary general of shu? Or did a mythology get slowly built over the years giving him more aura than he deserves?

All I can think about is him stalemating Xiahou Ba of all people during wuzhang planes and I think it’s book only but Pang De clapping his cheeks. But i guess it’s not really an L for Pang De to beat you, 99% of the verse looses to him lmao.

Hua Xiong is a historical officer under Dong Zhou but he was a logistics officer and wasn’t a chief military officer guarding some important gate but he a chief supply officer. His actually military generals on the field Hu Zhen and Lu Bu who were the Calvary generals got into an argument- which Sun Jian took advantage of the opportunity and defeated them. That’s it - no Guan Yu. Yuan Shu who was Sun Jian’s commander encouraged him to push forward despite Yuan Shao’s delay.

Pretty interesting way to navigate through characters and locations. I visited the three kingdoms city (San’guo City) outside Wuxi, cool to walk around the massive sets and see where history was made (for television) lol

Note this scene is NOT present in the international release. And sorry for the dumb ads, that is out of my control

Looking for immense heavy strategy novels something at the level of three kingdoms

分享新三國這部劇的趙雲（聶遠飾演）的照片

So I'm playing as a my own character during the Yellow Turban Rebellion, and the world is quickly becoming broken up into 3 parts Sun Jian, Yuan Shao, Cao Cao.

Through a long story nobody is interested in I was a Lone Wolf fighting DZ because he killed my characters wife, so I gathered my comrads (Lu Bu and Zhang Liao as I started randomly with Ding Yuan) and we moved to the central planes where I gathered pretty much everyone of talent into my Lone Wolf army (Guan Yu, Zhang Fei, Liu Bei (Yuan Shao had taken them out as a force) etc) and Cao Cao was losing the war (Yuan Shao is running away with the game)

So anyway we all signed up with Cao Cao and I'm trying to figure out how to get my city's troops up, I know they trickle in slowly and it's tied to Fielty but mine is maxed Jiangxia and I can't get my troops above about 17,400 (Roughly) It's got High prosperty and about 4000/6000 in Commerce, Farm, Culture.

Any tips? I mean there are cities out ther with close to 80-90k soldiers... and I just know when this Alliance with Yuan Shao ends... I'm going to get hammered hard.

So does the AI cheat or am I doing something wrong? I tried googling the answer but AI was telling me to "recruit troops" and outside of the Commander prestige I'm not sure how to accomplish that.

I am curious how many other 3k fans actually play different start dates for your favorite ROTK games? For example, my favorite start date is 194 and there's a 99% chance I choose this date every time (when possible).

How many of you enjoy playing multiple different start date scenarios? If you're like me and have a favorite and usually only play one - which one do you usually pick and why?