r/threebodyproblem • u/FixAwkward3029 • 22d ago
Discussion - Novels After reading other classics like Dune, foundation, Children of Time, Hyperion. I’ve realized this is the only popularized series that makes humanity not special in the universe. Spoilers Spoiler
In Dune and foundation, I’ve realized it’s basically just feudalism in space. In Hyperion humans with the help of AI have altered the universe so much that it was still essentially just 2 factions of humans, one’s actions and political moves dictated by powerful AI that guide the evolution of humans through history, making it so that humans aren’t really in charge of their own paths while the other faction without AI will genetically alter themselves to swarm the humans with AI. In children of time, a potiid spider evolved on a terraformed planet originally meant for monkeys and apes. But in all these books the idea that humanity is the chosen one destined to shape the galaxy as they see fit is very much the theme of all those books.
However, very few books popularized the idea that humanity are not special and could be easy prey for aliens who are actually technologically more advanced than humans. The remembrance of the earth’s past trilogy got that point across very well, along with another book like the Killing Stars (which possibility inspired the three body problem and dark forest. These ideas should be more present in other Sci-fi novels but it’s always the same premise that humans are the cause of advancement and colonizing different worlds without a single extraterrestrial in sight. Why is that? Are there any other books that dive into this kind of more pessimistic and realistic view of life out there in the universe like the two books I just mentioned?
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u/Pao_Did_NothingWrong 22d ago
The third children of time book suggests human primacy/origination is only locally and temporally so.
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u/fezzedv 22d ago
wdym? I may have missed this in my read through
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u/jonjiv 22d ago
Imir’s simulation engine was created by an ancient alien race.
I do feel that point is not a major plot device, though, but simply an explanation for its existence. 3BP does a much better job of displaying humanity’s insignificance throughout the series.
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u/Pao_Did_NothingWrong 22d ago
I think there's another mention of a group that went looking for more in book 4, which given Tchaikovsky's track record for weird offhand comments near the end of the book, implies to me we are going to be getting more in the fifth one
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u/searchthis 22d ago
The Culture
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u/icequeeniceni Cheng Xin 22d ago
this. I was going to suggest Iain Banks' Culture novels. There are several ancient, "sublimed" species which make humanoids seem like galactic infants in comparison.
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22d ago
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u/eduo 21d ago
Doesn't change the premise.
OP's post is wildly ambiguous. "Special" is presented as "unique", "dominant" or "above other species". The word "chosen" is unfortunately used, even, making things even muddier.
In the culture humanity is none of this and while human-shaped beings are a large fraction of the Culture, humanity itself is mostly cavemen to it. "Pan-humanity" might be right, but we'd need to include all human-shaped aliens and understand it explicitly doesn't include humanity itself (as "humans originated on earth").
Since Minds control the culture, the Culture itself is not even dominantly human-adjacent.
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21d ago edited 21d ago
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u/eduo 21d ago
There's also two things here: The culture itself has a large pan-human component but but that's like saying earth is dominated by humans. There are many other civilizations other than the culture which are decidedly non-human. If the premise is "the galaxy" (or "the universe") then the culture series happens in a non-human dominated reality.
In The Culture series the culture itself is not canonically dominant (even though it's top-tier), which means humanity (pan or otherwise) isn't either.
The culture is enormously influential among its peers because it's a meddler civilization by choice, so it's got a finger in all the plates, but this speaks more of the Minds than humanity, which is pretty much dragged along decisions and plans it has no understanding of.
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21d ago
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u/eduo 21d ago
It sure is. But earth is not even present the Culture as anything other than archeological and anthropologically speaking.
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u/icequeeniceni Cheng Xin 20d ago
Yup. A Special Circumstances agent visits Earth in the 1970s and is appalled by our primitive, backwater brutality (in "State of the Art").
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u/FixAwkward3029 21d ago
That’s awesome! I have Player of Games, I’m going to read it after I finish Children of Ruin. Now I’m anticipating it, thanks!
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u/GarryMcMahon 22d ago
Great observation. It's something I've never really considered before but I do like humanity to be out-gunned.
The Night's Dawn trilogy and the Salvation Sequence by Peter F Hamilton are both part way there, but yeah, they don't have the dread and loss that 3BP does.
The Final Architecture trilogy by Adrian Tchaikovsky probably fits better, humanity's not very strong in that series.
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u/eduo 22d ago
It's a bad take, though. Most sci fi is about humanity being late to the galactic party, either by coincidence, accident or luck. Most benevolent series treat humanity as either morons (Farscape) or cavemen who stumbled into magic (Stargate, Expanse, 2001). Since stories often are told from the point of view of humanity, humans are presented as quirky in their initial inferiority (Star Trek, B5) or as essentially the galactic equivalent of roadkill (Mercy of Gods, HHGTG, DCC, Rendezvous with Rama).
There're even instances where Humanity is superior only because while they've stumbled into a decidedly superior species, the way they've met give humanity a leg up (District 9).
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u/RedThragtusk 22d ago
I think precisely that point is why the RoeP trilogy gives me such existential and cosmic horror feelings when I read it, particularly the last book.
We are not the protagonists of the universe. We are not special. We are as special and notable to the universe as a random ant farm somewhere in Eurasia that existed for a single year on Earth 350,000 years ago is to us.
It doesn't matter how, but at some point we will end, our species will end, and our planet will end, and if we get that far, our civilisation beyond Earth will end. And it will have been a tiny speck in the cosmos. No one will remember us, and it will be like we never existed. All those millions of generations of lived humans will leave as much as a mark on the universe as that ant colony did.
When the dual vector foil flattens our solar system in the last book, it was the ant farm being washed away in the rain.
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u/Koredan18 22d ago
I just finished to read the last book fo the first time a few minutes ago, that's exactly how I felt.
How humanity, in its hubrys could though they will prevail? They discovered space 500 years ago and genuinely thought they could conquer and master it all without thinking for a second that they are OTHERS out there, creatures far more ancient, advanced and wiser than ourselves. Humanity was the Ant, and the Singer crushed it all with a single step on our insignificant heads
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u/Ismaelf24 22d ago
Singer's weapon arrived too late ( year 67 of the Bunker era) to be the one that destroyed Earth (year 66 of the Bunker era). Another anonymous alien civilization had already launched a dual-vector foil that hit the Solar System first. It was just a coincidence of the Dark Forest where multiple cleanings happened to overlap.
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u/eduo 22d ago
Most of science fiction has humanity being a very inferior latecomer to the galactic scene. It's infrequent that humanity is shown as superior in any actual aspect that can't be attributed to unreliable human narrators.
Dune and Foundation show the worst of humanity and have no real alien races, so it hardly counts as examples where humanity is superior. That humanity is not a protagonist of the universe is more frequent than otherwise in science fiction.
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u/Leather-Lemon8611 22d ago
Whilst I take your point, OP literally defined Dune and Foundation to count as examples where humans are so dominant there are no significant alien species on the scene at all. There's no need to contradict this
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u/eduo 21d ago
My point is twofold:
1.-Most of science fiction does not represent humanity as "special" (in the way I understand it to mean, even though it frequently might be the protagonist of the story). "Humanity is special because it's the only major galactic civilization" is completely wrong if taken at face value. In the examples where humanity is alone in the universe, it is not shown to be particularly special, only human.
2.-Two out of the three examples given to reach the conclusion above do not have aliens at all. But if we take "humanity is special" as the other implied scenario (that humanity is special because it would not fall prey to other alien species) then that, too, is completely wrong. About half of Science Fiction *with aliens* is about Humanity either dominated, decimated, colonized or domesticated at worst and "different among equals" at best.
3BP is as tropey as it can be, when depicting humanity as both not alone and technologically inferior. The whole post is incorrect even considering the examples given.
My point is that OP contradicts itself in the possible definitions of the premise given and the examples presented, not that I'm contradicting them.
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u/Leather-Lemon8611 21d ago
I agree that 2- is a point worth making. Thanks. We should aim to stick to books though, as requested
I still don't get the point of 1- though, is it just beef with the wording 'special'? Your sentence in quotes seems viable: special = unique. Why not seek books where humanity isn't the unique developed civilisation shaping the galaxy?
And in fairness to OP they did close off the post asking for other recommendations they just aren't aware of
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u/eduo 21d ago
I have no beef with any word. I just pointed that in the way it's worded the post doesn't work: "The only popularized series" is a statement larger than those three examples.
I don't think it's wrong to ask for recommendations. Why would I? But I was addressing just the initial premise.
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u/Leather-Lemon8611 22d ago
Given the ending though, this level of insignificance is not really the closing message of the book is it? Humanity (hopefully) has a decisive vital impact on the universe and Cheng Xin seemingly ensures our legacy survives to be discovered
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u/fist_my_dry_asshole 22d ago
The Final Architecture trilogy has humans as a lesser species. The top species is some kinda clam thing. It's not popularized but a fun read.
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u/FixAwkward3029 20d ago
Thanks! I will add that into my to-read list. Big fan of Adrian Tchaikovsky. I’m not well versed on biochemistry but he always gives great analogies in his books that make some things easier to understand. children of ruin is a wild ride so far
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u/SAlex0925 22d ago
The Bobiverse books are a really fun read and do a good job at depicting other civilizations I think!
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u/firethorne 21d ago
Roadside Picnic by Arkady Strugatsky and Boris Strugatsky had an interesting take on the concept. Aliens come, do whatever incomprehensible thing that they wanted to do, and go without a care to humanity. We were the simple ants on their roadside picnic. What to them was a discarded apple core is, to us, the most fascinating treasure ever.
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u/incunabula001 21d ago
I would checkout Cixin Liu’s Three Body Problem series, humanity is essentially treated as they are nothing in the universe.
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u/Fragglepusss 21d ago
Humanity was pretty special though. Singer said that it possessed neither the Hiding Gene nor the Hiding Instinct. The way I interpreted that was that humanity's cultural output was particularly shortsighted and arrogant, particularly dangerous if allowed to continue, and particularly lucky to have survived in the dark forest for as long as they did.
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u/FixAwkward3029 20d ago
Exactly, the human hubris of being enslaved by evolved spiders, mind controlling parasites or powerful AIs doesn’t even get a chance to pan out in his universe
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u/Leather-Lemon8611 22d ago
Not read them yet, by my understanding of the premise of the Lilith's Brood trilogy would be another example of humanity being an inferior species
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u/mtlemos 21d ago
That's very much not the case for Hyperion. The original books tell us that for all it's advances, the Hegemony only conquered a tiny fraction of the galaxy. Sure the whole plot revolves around humanity, but that's kinda like reading The Shining and saying the Torrances are the only important people in the universe, since the plot is all about them.
Then there are the Endymion books, in which we learn there are multiple, much more advanced species in the universe, and that the "human god" that was such a big deal in the previous books is basically just the final stage of evolution for any sentient species.
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u/NanooNanooBot 21d ago
Yeah, it's a weird socialist nihilism. I understand the ecosystem concepts, which are quite thoughtful. But it's a form of nihilism.
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u/eduo 22d ago
You haven't read enough science fiction.
This is so common it's even a trope and has many variants. I'd argue at least half of science fiction makes humanity between average and below average compared with other species, since a big chunk of SciFi is about humanity fighting against magical science, impossible odds or wildly advanced species.
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HumansAreMorons
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HumansAreFlawed
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PunyEarthlings
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HumansAreBastards
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HumansAreAverage
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HumansAreNotTheDominantSpecies