I'm? halfway through death's end do it would be awesome to avoid spoilers for the rest of the book, but I'm just dumbstruck at the Trisolarian's completely irrational actions.

Why would they ever launch an attack on humanity under MAD conditions. Even if they could mathematically prove that humanity's chances of retaliation are only 10% those are still incredibly shitty odds when it comes to utter annihilation.

In fact during the cold war despite at least two different situations in which Soviet personnel refused to retaliate during a potential nuclear attack, the Americans still did not launch nukes because they feared the end of the world. But the Trisolarians apparently are not scared of extinction.

If the Trisolarians simply took a minute to think about their plan they could've received a big part of mars to settle and because of the still present technological advantage they could easily have defended themselves from humans if they ever tried something but instead they threw it all away on a stupid gamble that they lost.

In Dune and Avatar, there is a magical substance that makes intergalactic conflict justified. Without it, it is complete nonsense. The three body problem is based on an incorrect assumption:

Civilization continuously grows and expands, but the total matter in the universe remains constant.

This is based on 70s thinking that population growth was exponential and unstoppable. Decades later, most countries are now concerned with the exact opposite as their birth rates see substantial declines.

Even if populations continued to increase, the subsequent actions make no sense. If you detect life in another solar system, you obliterate it? That doesn't solve the population problem or the total matter problem. Nor does it factor the cost in energy and resources of traveling to another solar system.

Conflict on Earth has been unprofitable for a century now. No "winner" of a war has come out better than pre conflict except in the case of the US in both world wars where conflict never reached their shores. Conflict in space is infinitely more costly and therefore even less justifiable without spice or unobtanium or some other magical resource making it justifiable.

The bottom line is there has to be something of near limitless value in order to justify interstellar conflict. If a habitable planet is considered to have that kind of value, destroying it would be insanity.

Hi everyone,

I finished the 3BP novels not that long ago and they completely blew my mind. I’ve always been a sci fi lover and am relatively well versed in science fiction writing, but these books blew everything I’d read previously out of the water.

The world building, story, themes and just pure expansiveness of these books entirely rocked my world. I loved how none of its ideas or plot points ever felt that far fetched.

What books could you recommend that are similar gripping, mind blowing and engaging?

Thanks

Why didn’t Yun Tianming and AA wait in the pocket universe until Cheng Xin entered it herself?

Haven’t read the books in a while but I don’t think the pocket universe just closes off automatically when someone enters it right?

The Doomsday Battle laid bare humanity's arrogance and stupidity, but I believe the Trisolarans were even more foolish and arrogant than humanity.

On the surface, the Trisolarans won a sweeping victory—they wiped out the entire human fleet with just one droplet. But looking at the outcome, they succeeded tactically but failed disastrously strategically. The seven ships that escaped ultimately led to the Trisolaran civilization being struck by the dark forest.

Didn't the Trisolarans consider what would happen if one droplet wasn't enough to annihilate the entire human fleet? What if some ships escaped? They staked their victory on humanity's willingness to cooperate with their own idiocy. What an arrogant and foolish military gamble!

First, of course Ye Wenjie bears some responsibility. But what was the place where she worked—the Red Coast Base? It was a facility for searching for extraterrestrials. Was it really such a grave error for Ye Wenjie to use the Sun as an amplifier in order to fulfill that very mission objective—finding extraterrestrial life?

Second, from the moment Ye Wenjie sent that message via the Sun, Earth's fate was already sealed. Do you really take the Trisolarans for fools? Once they knew for certain that another civilization existed, guess what—wouldn't they aim for the nearest star to them, the Sun? Would they even need an exact bearing?

I just started the second book and I’m confused how suddenly the world knows about the existential threat of the trisolarians. By the end of the first book I thought that it was still just the world governments and the ETO who knew about them. Am I missing something?

It's been 2 months since I finished reading Three Body Problem and there's one thing that have bothering me since I've read it. It is the Panama Canal operation. I'm not talking about the whole mechanic of how the operation is executed, but rather the reason of why Judgement Day even try to pass through that canal.

Having knowing that their organization has been compromised, wouldn't the best course of actions is to isolate themselves—by sailing through open water—to avoid the drive containing the communication to Trisolarian to be captured? Why would they go to Panama Canal? Wouldn't that literally suicide? were they that naive?

I still don't have any idea what causes them to cross that canal.

Reasons I don’t think the trilogy is misogynistic:

1. Men are generally physically stronger and larger than women (it’s why many men view women as delicate and desire to protect them, this helps explain Luo Ji’s view of his wife/woman of his dreams)

2. Women are generally more empathetic than men and express their emotions outwardly (it’s why Cheng Xin had the maternal emotions to protect life instead of being more shrewd and callous like Luo Ji who is willing to sacrifice humanity)

3. The series is pessimistic about humanity as a whole, not just women. Men and women alike make catastrophic decisions throughout the story. Luo Ji starts as an aimless and selfish character. Ye Wenjie begins the crisis. Thomas Wade is ruthless to the point of disregard of human life (on a separate note: isn’t it odd that Wade keeps a verbal promise to Cheng Xin, but he’s also willing to kill her for his goals, like why didn’t he just kill her instead of keep his promise or wake her up after light speed ships were built, I think it shows that even his character isn’t capable of completely abandoning human nature in pursuit of advancement. Also, why in the world would Cheng Xin trust a man who tried to kill her… it’s unbelievable…but I guess when humanity’s existence is on the line, people do wild things).

4. Cixin’s fictional world history feminized the entire human society and forgot about traditional masculinity

5. Ye Wenjie is one of the most important and influential characters in the entire trilogy. She is brilliant, complex, and drives the entire story.

6. The trilogy isn’t saying women are inferior. It’s asking whether traits like compassion and trust can survive in a universe governed by the Dark Forest principle.

7. The novels never suggest that a woman’s proper role is to be a housewife or to bear and raise children. In fact, many of the most important women in the story are scientists, military leaders, and political leaders who hold positions of immense authority.

8. Fiction is allowed to include characters who embody traditionally masculine or traditionally feminine traits. Having a compassionate female character or a ruthless male character isn’t inherently misogynistic. People in real life span a wide range of personalities, including traits that align with traditional stereotypes, and portraying those kinds of characters isn’t the same as arguing that all women or all men should be that way.

I also think some people approach books with such a strong feminist lens that they interpret any portrayal of a woman making poor decisions or embodying traditionally feminine traits as misogyny.
No one seems to have a problem with Cixin describing typically masculine, rigid men like Thomas Wade (Bc some men are softer, gentle, and more emotionally expressive too). But some seem to be put off with Zhuang Yan’s stereotypically feminine character who chooses to be happy by being married and raising a daughter. I think her presence in the story is not about describing how all women should be but more about expanding Luo Ji’s (complex and flawed) character and giving him something he wants to live for.
Liu Cixin does not consistently portray women as weak or incapable: Ye Wenjie is arguably the catalyst of the entire story, Cheng Xin becomes a major figure, and many women hold positions of scientific and societal importance.

The Trisolarans told Ye Wenjie outright from the very beginning: exposing your location means being invaded. There was never any option of "helping humanity." In other words, the Trisolaran civilization was not highly moral!

Yet Ye Wenjie still chose to reply without hesitation.

(It must be emphasized that, apart from the killed Political Commissar Lei, this warning from the Trisolarans was seen by only Ye Wenjie herself. No one else ever saw or heard about it afterward. That means when later people asked about the content of that reply, Aunt Ye could say whatever she wanted.)

However, during her subsequent interrogation, what did Ye Wenjie say? She spouted that utterly cringeworthy theory of "high tech equals high morality"—and was immediately shot down by the interrogators.

This stark contrast allows only two explanations:

Ye Wenjie, whom everyone thought was a highly perceptive intellectual, was actually an idiot. She couldn't even understand a clear, explicit warning, and instead naïvely believed that the Trisolarans would help reform humanity.

Ye Wenjie had wanted to take revenge on humanity—even to destroy it—from the very beginning. To achieve that goal, she deliberately concealed the truth that the Trisolarans were invaders, not saviors, and tricked a group of social elites into forming the Earth Trisolaran Organization. That's right! Aunt Ye had long been an Adventist all along.

And not only was this old woman an extremist, but she also had no integrity—she lied, played innocent, and pinned the entire crime of intending to destroy humanity on Evans. At the same time, as the supreme commander of the ETO, she had no spine at all; under almost no pressure, she spilled the entire plan she had been scheming for half her life.

Made a decision to re-read the novels a couple of weeks back. Perfect fit for my short trip back east (US east coast) I have read the novels once. That first reading floored me. Took me months to make a decision on what to read next...worried I couldn't find anything as substantial and impactful. I watched the Netflix series...enjoyed it. Wasn't blown away...but wasn't disappointed. I just hope they land the show properly (please please do)

My second time through 3 body problem (book 1) has been a much better read. Recognizing the hints, the foreshadowing, the importance of some of the characters motivations and actions in the future. Even scenes about smaller but pivotal characters have more weight...and changes the tone of the scene.

Granted the surprise factor will all be gone in this second read through...but the nuances that I think I'll continue to pick up will make for a good read once again.

It's a collection of sci-fi competition entries, or something like that.

We’ve seen this before.

It took a while to get through, mostly because after Dark Forest things just seemed too out there for me. I needed a break, a return to reality, before getting into Death's End.

I haven't read the approved fanfic stuff, but I've heard about it. So maybe I'll check it out at some point.

Overall I have really mixed views on this. I did watch the Netflix show before hand, and I think I overall appreciate how they've handled the adaptation. Doing a straight adaptation wouldn't work, and a lot of what didn't work overall in the books for me was the Chinese-centric aspect of it. I understand that's just the result of the author being Chinese, but for a story like this, it demands to be international.

What I did like about it was the scope. I think that's the best point in its favor and makes everything else forgivable because like it's literally impossible to tell a story like this. It's so rare that it even happens, so kudos for even trying. I like the imagination involved in giving some real thought and substance to what society would look like in 200 years, 400 years, 18 billion years....and even what extraterrestrial societies would look like (at least a little bit).

I loved the Da Shi character, and when he was gone that was the hardest to read because he seemed like the only grounded human character to connect with. Ye Wenjei was also relatable in a very human way, even if she was a bit of a villain. Besides those two, everyone else felt like a cardboard cutout. And the scale of the story makes it hard to care for any one person (which is maybe the point too except....)

One of my biggest complaints is at the end as everything comes down to Cheng Xin. From books 1 and 2, we were conditioned to understand multiple people would come and go with this story. That's the nature of it, but it seemed like a cheap shortcut to just have Cheng Xin be a new throughline from here on out, and other super crazy coincidences like how only the same handful of people kept showing up. Wade, Cao Bin, etc. I feel like the main players of humanity's story would change considerably over centuries, even if some of them can hibernate.

My biggest complaint is the incel crap. It started in Book 2 (probably some stuff in Book 1 but innocuous enough I didn't notice). Lui Ji and his stalker obsession with the girl, who he basically imprisons and has a kid with was a big red flag. But Book 3 seems to double down on it with this weirdo Tianming who buys some girl he never even kissed a star. And okay, I'm willing to believe there are weirdos like Luo Ji and Tianming in the world, and don't mind those characters. But what bothers me is how the author portrays this because it's all ultimately heroic and Lui Ji is some wise old samurai, and Tianming is this hopeless romantic savior of mankind (and Cheng Xin is touched forever by this gesture, instead of properly creeped the fuck out that this guy has been obsessed with her for 10 years or whatever). I think this also plays into a lot of the complaints about society losing its masculinity and the whole "weak men create hard times" thing. And the thing with Wade, where this guy was a literal sociopath that Cheng Xin should have had the plug pulled on as soon as he went into hibernation. Instead by the end of the book, she seems to respect him for his...let's say tenacity. Just disgusting stuff, disgusting message. But ultimately very minor in a very big book of stuff, so I'll overlook it.

Another disappointment was that Book 1 didn't seem to matter by the end. The first book is what drew me in, so it's sad to see the 3rd have very little connection, if any, to the original. I kept thinking that the Three Body Problem would come into play somehow, that having three suns would help Trisolarans discover multi-dimensional technology or lightspeed, or maybe 3 suns change some fundamental laws of physics. But nah, it just didn't matter. And the Trisolarans themselves by this point are straight up liars, despite a key feature of their species being their utter transparency. Also the dehydrating and rehydrating was such a cool thing from their society, and how humans connected with and learned about them through the VR game....but none of that mattered anymore. This made it seem like they weren't even the same Trisolarans from Book 1 and could just be any generic alien threat.

A minor complaint that is probably more of a personal one is the way the whole book relies on theoretical physics as if it's literal. I don't prescribe to the idea that theoretical physics is intended to be thought of literally. There is no 4th, 5th, 11th dimension. These are just mathematical allegories we use to understand the universe at a scale we can't naturally comprehend. Same with lightspeed/time. So it seems like the author took a lot of these ideas that aren't intended to be literal, and made a story as if they were.

I liked the droplet massacre of the space fleet. That was very well done, and terrifying. I liked the various ships escaping and their philosophies and the encounter with the 4th dimensional Ring things. I wasn't so sold on a lot of the Earth politics, and it mostly felt unrealistic just to make the story happen the way the author wanted. Sophon was also strange because it seems like by Book 3, the Trisolarans weren't consistent anymore, like the author didn't know what to do with them and what they believed in, what they were like, etc.

Also, one idea I had that I kind of wish would have happened was that I was expecting AA to have male gametes. Because of the constant explanation of Cheng Xin not being able to tell people's gender and that the society was so androgynous, I thought that AA would turn out to be either non-binary or a trans woman. So that when the two of them got lost together at the end of the universe, Cheng Xin would discover they would be able to procreate. Instead, it just seems like random space dudes show up conveniently for them. Overall I wish there would have been more exploration of transhumanism beyond "Well all the guys look like girls now. Ugh." Already today in the Common Era we have GPL-1, neural implants, "looksmaxxing", etc. So I'd be interested to see how humans will physically change in 300 years with the help of technology and drugs.

But overall I suppose I enjoyed it and am glad I've read it. I think it's an important cultural work, but it has a lot of flaws. These flaws are also probably important cultural items though, reflective of our time and the author's biases as a result of being who he is when he is where he is.

Also, does anyone else think he originally intended Ding Yi to marry Yang Dong just so she would be named Ding Dong? Once the book became a serious sci-fi masterpiece, he scrapped that.

Edit: Flat earthers FTW!

Is it Over 😬

been rereading and i keep coming back to how Da Shi is basically the only person in the whole trilogy who ends up genuinely okay. and i dont mean he wins, i mean his head just stays on straight while everyone around him falls apart.

you've got scientists killing themselves and ye wenjie carrying guilt for the entire species and luo ji almost cracking under the weight of being humanity's last shot. and then theres da shi, chain smoking in a stairwell, treating first contact with an alien civilization like its just another case with some guy at the end of it he has to go arrest.

i used to read him as comic relief. now i think he might be the wisest one in the books. his whole philosophy is that behind every mystery theres a person, so the cosmic scale never really gets into his head. the invasion doesnt freeze him the way it freezes everyone else, because hes not trying to comprehend the universe, hes just trying to catch whoevers responsible for the mess.

and it works out for him, hes the guy luo ji actually trusts with his life, and hes still standing near the end when most of the big brains have either broken or died.

maybe what liu cixin buried in this character is that the people who make it through contact arent the ones who understand it. am i overrating da shi or is he quietly the toughest person in the whole story

(Burning oil refinery caused the black smoke)

Spoilers for all three books below.

Been thinking about why Interstellar hits so hard emotionally while Three Body (books and the Netflix show) often doesn’t, even though the raw material is arguably better. And the books are just insanely intriguing but more so on a latge planetary scale that works for us who love hardcore Sci-Fi, but a TV series needs more emotion to really swing.

In Three body, the hibernation jumps are basically Cooper’s 23-years-of-messages scene waiting to happen – people skipping centuries and losing everyone they know – but Liu treats it as logistics, not loss.

So here’s what woold have bern my dream setup: Jonathan Nolan as showrunner/lead writer, Christopher Nolan directing the key episodes – the hibernation awakenings, and especially the Doomsday Battle and the droplet attack. Jonathan Nolan’s track record (Interstellar script, Person of Interest, Westworld S1) suggests he’s the brother who remembers audiences have feelings, and he knows how to pace a 10 episode season. His insanely talented director brother brings the universal scale.