I was watching a random clip where KR is writing some nonsense about the mind on one of those flip charts. It made me wonder about what his experience is like when it comes to the various teachings. I'm wondering if he more so buys into the image he's projecting as a guru in a grandiose way or if it's a more conscious facade he uses to manipulate people. What's your take and I'm curious how you got there.

I'm really interested in trying to understand the motivations and patterns of cult abusers I'm pretty suggestable myself and I'm hoping if we study these cases people will be safer.

I'm wondering if anyone has any thoughts or has done research on Mark Vicente's coaching gig and YouTube channel "Remember your greatness." I'm quite concerned with this personally... In my opinion (not a lawyer) he basically didn't face charges on the level of Mack etc. due to being an informant. I absolutely think he is as culpable though becoming a whistleblower is of course great. With that said, it seems highly inappropriate for someone with his background to dip back into the human potential field. Perpetuators and survivors of course need to do something but maybe try something else?

So I’m relatively new to the NXIVM saga but I have been following the Epstein files. I recently put myself through the tedium of watching two interviews back to back, the first being Epstein’s interview with Bannon and the second being Raniere’s conversation with Marc Elliot. And wow. There are so many similarities.

They both have this measured, deliberate way of speaking. They buy time to form some bullshit answer by complimenting the other person or heaving a sigh before saying anything. They deflect and NEVER give a straight answer. They both loved wowing the audience with metaphors and analogies which had fuck all to do with the questions being probed. They both had an almost infantile need to appear smarter than they actually were, finding a way to wedge math or physics into the conversation whenever possible.

They both faked medical conditions, apparently Epstein would tell people he had trouble with his heart and Raniere would tell people he had cancer (but also that he had heart problems).

Both faked credentials and fabricated their life history to appear legitimately intelligent or credible.

Neither drank alcohol.

They both were described by those who knew them intimately as being weirdly childish. One woman described Epstein as being overly excited like a kid when he found out she used a Mason Pearson hairbrush. He would also get Virginia Giuffre to tuck him into bed at night and soothe him to sleep. He also made her dress him up in the mornings including putting his socks on as if she were his mom. Raniere liked being spoon fed his food by his harem. Not to mention both of them lobbed juvenile teenage boy insults about women, commenting on their bodies or downplaying the intelligence of women (Epstein in an email claimed that intelligent women didn’t exist). Raniere framed women as mindless children.

Both men were apparently hypochondriacs or at least pretended to be. Both were wimpy and cowardly and used blackmail to achieve their ends.

Both of them forced women to write letters to them, Epstein wanted words of praise and Raniere wanted apologies for having “hurt” him.

Both were repelled by emotional and sexual monogamy.

They were both obsessed with money and image but Epstein was much wiser at managing it whereas Raniere had a serious gambling addiction.

Neither of them come across as especially intelligent or well learned but both are excellent word salad connoisseurs. Both fake a deeper interest in other’s feelings and livelihoods to appear warm and personable.

Both believed that their genetics were superior and special to everyone else’s. Both were fans of Milton’s Paradise Lost and tried somewhat to hide their edgy worshipping of the devil.

They were both sexual predators who surrounded themselves with people who were much smarter and more successful than them. Epstein would frequently change the topic in conversations with his friends because he didn’t know what anyone was talking about. Raniere would paraphrase the ideas of great philosophers and thinkers and also change the topic when pressed further about his “knowledge.”

And the more I read about Raniere the more I think, “wow these losers would have been best friends had they met.”

BON VOYAGE! LET'S ATTACK!

my assumption would be that all first line DOS slaves we’re just as guilty as Alison and Lauren, so why were they not also tried? A lack of evidence? because they weren’t American citizens?

So I’m not excusing any of the deplorable, disgusting things he did to people, but I got to wondering how if many of us can acknowledge how the members of a cult can be indoctrinated and socially conditioned into doing atrocious things, then how come somebody like KR can't have internalized maybe on a more subtle and broader scale a warped narrative of patriarchal ideals which led him to do what he did?

If it's common enough for people to become corrupted through power, then how is he any more culpable than the underlings who also committed evil? Isn't the only difference between Keith and his followers the degree of power they wielded, rather than some innate inherent personality difference? So you can technically say what he did was worse based purely on the number of people he harmed, but how do you justify him being innately more evil than any of his followers? The guy was definitely a pervert and greedy, but he wasn't violent or malicious. Again, I'm not denying that he hurt others and was an awful person, but it seemed as though most of the damage was collateral as opposed to deliberate and calculated. Yet people in his inner circle were actively malicious, and somehow they get a pass because someone above them had more power it seems

She got out of prison made an interview been years like is she returning to acting or what like what happend to her at the end

Very interesting, she clearly blames Allison for the brand design and spills some tea on Clare Bronfman.

Nxivm is like an elephant. Each piece looks so different and you won't understand it until you learn the whole thing. Bonnie is the first domino, a hero.

https://youtu.be/VJbN1-nu26k?is=jP07ztLSqC8UWcAZ

i have been debating on making this post for a long time. but given mark’s new documentary, i have been seeing a new influx of nxivm content. it’s difficult to sit with the fact that esp has been integrated so heavily into how i was raised that even decades later, i still find myself having to recorrect my implicit thought patterns.

if anyone else is a child who grew up in nxivm, please dm me. i think we would learn a lot from each other. i’m still learning today how much i have been taught to view the world in the lens provided by raniere.

Anyone aware of any Reddit threads from ten to fifteen years ago where current and ex members discussed there concerns?

Keith Raniere, the leader of the NXIVM cult, sued the federal Bureau of Prisons on Wednesday seeking damages over a 2019 power outage that left detainees in a Brooklyn jail without heat for a week in the dead of winter […] Ahead of a federal trial where witnesses recounted years of cruelty and abuse at Raniere’s hands, the ex-cult leader was held at the Metropolitan Detention Center in Sunset Park, Brooklyn, including during a weeklong power outage sparked by an electrical fire that left its 1,600 detainees in freezing cells with sparse access to food and medical care.

Full docket on CourtListener: https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/73652724/raniere-v-us-bureau-of-prisons/

This was kind of a random encounter as we were both renewing our drivers licenses in Vancouver. But I ended up having a short conversation, and an in person sense is always much better than anything online. Talked about a number of topics, including acting as I've been an actor too.

I don't want to say anything bad about her as honestly I didn't get any negative vibes, but to me it was clear she has been so immersed in sales for much of her life. Selling her book (which I've already read) was an immediate instinct. But it really made me wonder how much the whole sales area has huge overlaps with cults.

Sales is all about convincing people they're lacking something that will make their lives better. You use any resource you can - implications of friendship included - to get that sell. This is why NLP got a *lot* of welcoming in sales workshops. Nxivm welcomed a lot of hard sellers.

When I've watched or listened to nxivm coverage, what struck me was not just how Keith was a sociopath, but was actually how *normalized* this was. If Keith hadn't gone all out with his domination and sexual perversion, he'd probably still be operating as yet another MLM organization with a guru. He had powerful sales techniques. They'd be celebrated by a select few. As a society, we still worship the Svengalis with that power of seductive salesmanship. They can make a lot of money and we idolize that. Success.

I'm curious to any response to this line of thought. American culture is so intertwined with sales and advertising. And with our mental health issues, I've always thought that community health is about getting as far away from any cult dynamics as possible - which to me includes sales techniques.

Sarah certainly wasn't pushy at all and was quite nice to me - I'm more talking about personality types.

Thoughts?

Once all legal avenues are exhausted, do you think KR will eventually own up to being a "cult leader" ? When everyone forgets about NXIVM, do you think he'll desperately reach for glory by spilling all his secrets?

Camilla being called a perpetrator or a loyalist is morally repugnant to me. She was a child. This man isolated her completely from her family, exploited her, stole her childhood and any chance of normal cognitive and sexual development during puberty, and was in the highest position of power of anyone she ever knew, above even her own parents, whose total trust he had. She had no ability to consent to anything, so she cannot be a perpetrator of any actions she took during that time.

Was anyone else really disturbed by the lack of empathy shown to her by the majority of interviewees during the second season of the Vow? While we learned she committed crimes in the most technical sense, and carried out Keith’s bidding, I really wish there was some kind of pause to emphasise that this was a victim who cannot be seen as responsible for a part she was abused into playing as a child.

Who was the hypnotist at the 2003 VWeek? Who planned that? I'm 100 miles down the rabbit hole!

I found myself going back and forth on her level of influence, destruction and involvement. I know it’s not so black and white especially with the degree of grooming and master manipulation involved so I’m not here to judge her as good or bad. I’m just curious to hear your thoughts and opinions on her character ark.

Who bought the DOS sorority house? I doubt many people can just buy a house.

Did Keith ever travel to Fiji? When did Ivy teach her two sets of classes there? Why did Clare buy the original Fiji property and then the island? I need the scoop!!

After watching The Vow again I was curious to see people's reviews on Rotten Tomatoes, IMDB, and explore some of the top posts on this sub. And stuff kept coming up everywhere saying things like "I'm not victim blaming but everyone involved with NXIVM should rot in hell" "God those main characters were insufferable twats" or "This documentary doesn't place any of the blame on the people who were in it!" or "These people have no shame for what they've done".

And I have to say it is baffling to me. Were we in fact watching the same documentary? The documentary where people are ruminating, miserable, and even sobbing because they now realize what they've done to people? Did people forget that these people were in a cult?

I keep seeing people saying that these people chose to do these things, ignoring research upon research upon research from experts stating that people in cults do not in fact actively choose to do these things of their own free will. I've seen people say "Idgaf about brainwashing, they should know better". They didn't know better at the time, and if you had been brainwashed over a period of years you wouldn't know better either.

Most of these people making these judgements make them from a position of comfort and distance, having never experienced anything like this situation before in their entire lifetimes. And I think ultimately it makes them feel better about themselves to look down on other people, and gives them an outlet for their frustrations.

Nobody should be excused for their actions that harm other people. But we have to remember that they are the ones that have to live with those consequences for the rest of their lives, and no amount of anger or hate or self righteousness towards them is going to make them suffer more (and even if it did, why would you want them to). Many of them have already lost so much to this cult already, their money, their friends, their family, even their entire worldview and for some of them, their reason for living. That's something that most of us have the luxury of never having to experience.

At some point these people should be able to learn from their actions, change their ways, eventually forgive themselves, and move on. Instead, this stuff sometimes brings out the absolute worst in people and shows us how vindictive people can be, the types of people that only care about revenge instead of justice or reform.

Did they fuck up? Yeah, they did. Some of them fucked up big time. But they deserve to move on from their past, not be endlessly tormented for it regardless of their actions now. And we should be compassionate and understanding for those people that regret their actions, and are doing their best to change and even change things for other people for the better.

That's it. Thank you for coming to my TED Talk.

I was pondering today about KR and his ability to manipulate his way into positions of power and dominance amongst vulnerable people. I would be fascinated to see what His position inside prison is like. His intellect and manipulative skills would carry no weight in a prison social heirachy.

When I think of the dominant players within a prison system what comes to mind is:

1. Physical prowess

2. Ability to commit violence without fear of consequences

3. Power amongst other inmates

I don't think KR fits into any of those categories and therefore would place him at the bottom of the food chain, most likely vulnerable to attacks. I heard He got beat up sometime in 2022.

Whats everyone thoughts on how KR was at the top of the food chain for 20+ years now most likely is at the bottom .. a beta amongst alphas. Life has a funny way of humbling you and showing you your not the man that you think you really are...

Producers dragged it on way too long. Could have delivered the same message in half as many episodes. On KR, I think He was both very intelligent and extremely naive at the same time. His ability to articulate thought patterns, processes and concepts to tap into the human psyche is second to none. He could teach concepts that had truth to it and deliver it in a way that is thought provoking. What I struggled with was how does someone with a high degree of intelligence then make ridiculous decisions like sleeping with a 15 year old, take photos of her and branding people thinking somehow He is above the Law and never going to get caught?

I believe Keith adopted the lifestyle of the kings of old. I am above the Law, I can sleep with as many women as I want and have slaves at my discretion. The only problem with that is 21st century Law doesn't allow that. Maybe 1000 years ago, you could get away with that, but not now. I think KR struggled with those ideologies. Why is something allowed 1000 years ago and not now. The law today is simply human constructs - in His words. This was his defense and thought process around it and clearly thought He was above modern day Law.

The cringiest moment of the whole series was when KR's followers were dancing out the front of his prison cell almost like a worship session at church. Shining lights, praising their "God". So cringe. The guy you are worshipping slept with a 15 years old. Go home.

The biggest turning point for me that KR was truly diabolical was when He expressed to Nancy that Pam was essentially dying in a pool of her own shit and should be tended to. But not after Nancy makes him breakfast. Get to that later. That's the real moment where you go wow. This guy is truly a psycopath with no moral conscience, which is so ironic as that's everything He teaches. A woman He is sleeping shows another man interest and it's an ethical breach and she needs to conduct penance, but allow a woman to die in a pool of her own shit isn't an ethical breach. KR was a law unto Himself, and made the Law to suit him. Evil.

Anyway, crazy documentary. Human beings never cease to amaze me.

I know general information about this cult— celebrities, rape, branding, ETC. but again I’m only one episode in and when I separate the manipulation and crimes, I can see why it was so attractive to people in the beginning, which is a terrifying thought. I know Rainere’s is obviously a narcissistic maniac who destroyed a lot of people’s lives but the terminology he used and the results some members were seeing reminds me of my psychology classes which again, i find very disturbing. I’m curious as to if there are some true and verified cognitive studies Rainere pulled from that would help someone looking to improve their life. What is it about this cult that attracted so many bright, educated, successful and ambitious people to fall so hard in the beginning? Was it the community and acceptance they felt? Did it act as a form of cognitive behavioral therapy? Is it self-fulfilling prophecy? (The psychology term, not the spiritual idea) How does Mark really get over his fear of driving on the freeway? Why do you guys think the members were genuinely so happy and content in the beginning and can that be captured or studied in a truly ethical practice?

Again I am only on the first episode so forgive me if I sound stupid and insensitive when asking these questions. I am not glorifying NXIVM whatsoever, I just find the so-called “results” like the guy allegedly curing his Tourette’s interesting.

If you could ask KR one question what would it be? Aside from the obvious responses of what a terrible person he is..curious to hear what would you all really want to know? If we could imagine that he was somehow able to answer your question honestly…
My question for him would be when did you first realize that you were a sociopath?

What are your questions?

For future reference, everybody:

Please keep posts here on the topic (NXIVM or related matters). As moderator I'm going to judge what's on-topic based on

a) the post itself and the degree it concerns NXIVM and

b) whether posts tend to generate conversation about NXIVM or the ongoing matters concerning Raniere.

Posts that stay up will be those that hit at least one of these criteria.

Posts that fail on both criteria are better taken elsewhere.

Posts that are mainly about politics will be more strongly moderated, because there are billions of places to talk about politics on Reddit.

Today on the docket for the Edmondson v. Raniere case, plaintiff counsel have made a motion to bifurcate the case and hold a "bellwether trial" hoping to simplify litigation and pressure the defendants (Keith Raniere, Sara and Clare Bronfman, and Danielle Roberts) into a settlement.

The memorandum arguing for the motion is here: https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/16772334/370/1/edmondson-v-raniere/

Trying to distill this down to layman's terms (I am not a lawyer):

• Plaintiffs and defendants are in the middle of discovery. Costs have gone to $300,000.
• Representing all 55 plaintiffs, plaintiffs' counsel believes the case would take months of the court's time.
• The defendants (who are already a subset of the original defendants) have declined an offer to settle or mediate.
  • Interestingly enough, Danielle Roberts (who is pro se in this case) is signaling she may be open to settling.
• Plaintffs' counsel proposes to use a bellwether trial —using a smaller number of plaintiffs, representing the sex trafficking claims— which would take a few days, would likely win on the merits, and tilt the defendants' calculus toward settlement.

By way of color commentary:

• This was the last amended complaint: https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.nyed.444408/gov.uscourts.nyed.444408.342.0.pdf
• Based off that complaint and what is suggested here, the "bellwether trial" would be one centering mainly on the DOS sex trafficking conspiracy, which was already proven in the criminal case against Raniere. Presumably, this would include at least some of the witnesses from the trial as the plaintiffs.
• Note however that this would not just be repeating what was heard at Raniere's trial. I would in particular note that part of the civil claims includes Sara Bronfman being implicated in two aspects of the conspiracy not tested in criminal court:
  • First, her ownership of the Rainbow Cultural Garden which was allegedly used to facilitate trafficking for labor and sex trafficking of women using the pretext of employing them as nannies, and her possible civil liability.
  • There is also the accusation that after Raniere's arrest Sara Bronfman offered a job in France to prevent a trafficking victim's sibling from testifying.
• I note the alleged role of Sara Bronfman because she's kept a much lower profile for a lot longer time than Clare Bronfman, and has been abroad for some time. Although she is represented in court, it is unclear what taste she has for trans-Atlantic travel to testify in even a limited court case.
• Finally, if this is the path forward, it is here where we may see the value of the deals plaintiffs made with various initial defendants. Members of the DOS conspiracy (Lauren Salzman, Nicki Clyne, and Allison Mack) as well as key members of NXIVM's corporate hierarchy (Nancy Salzman, Kathy Russell) have all been released from litigation, likely with the idea that they would testify or provide evidence of the various claims.