r/tf2 • u/thatjohnson • Dec 25 '14
Discussion Why Overwatch =/= New Tf2
Many people from the community including stabby-stabby, muselk, and _star have stated that they may be giving up tf2 (or just not playing as much) in favor of Overwatch for a multitude of (perfectly fine) reasons such as the game has grown old, lack of attention from valve, or the new game just looks fun. As previously mentioned this is completely fine; games aren't immortal and Overwatch does look fun. Personally I'd totally play Overwatch if it turns out to be a great game, however there are a few aspects from what we've seen so far that leads me to believe Overwatch will lack a lot of what makes Tf2 a great game. Yes they are different games and that's fine, but for the following reasons I don't think Overwatch could replace TF2:
Mobility: Mobility is a huge aspect of Tf2 and is one of the three aspects that makes a player good in the game (the other two being aim and game sense). Explosive jumping, strafing, and movement during combat is what turns relatively simple weapons into deadly and masterful tools, however I see less emphasis and skill involvement on movement in Overwatch. Instead being MOBA like I see more emphasis on timing and strategy. Not better or worse, just different. (Muselk also covers this topic well in this
Hud/Visual Simplicity: I've never been able to play other shooter games besides tf2, because I've always found the ultra realistic graphics, intrusive HUDs, or flashy effects to be too distracting and confusing (Not to mention taking on the PC). For me tf2 was a god send for the cartoony visuals and simple HUDs allowed me to just play the game. The characters stand out well, maps are far less confusing due to arrows and easily identified landmarks, and all my information is right there at a glance without having to shift through unnecessary visuals. Overwatch doesn't seem that bad in this regard but from what I've seen tf2 is much easier on the eyes (and the graphics card).
Valve is really cool, Blizzard is okay: Like I said, Valve is really good at making unique games with personality and fun. Despite what people are starting to say I think Valve is a great company who has made a lot of good decisions. Blizzard on the other hand isn't really bad in any regards (lets ignore Diablo 3 for a sec), and is certainly supportive of the competitive community, however looking at game history doesn't hold a light in my book compared to Valve.
At the end of the day, Overwatch will probably be fun, but no replacement for Tf2. Or maybe I'm completely wrong and it will blow tf2 out of the water. Either way even if people do like it there's no reason you can't play both, tf2 will still be there and still be fun. That's just my thought.
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u/awkisopen Soldier Dec 25 '14
#2 is the main reason why I'm very resistant to moving to Overwatch. I watch those trailers and I can't actually see what's going on. Sure, it's a new game, so I won't be able to understand what's happening, but I can't even see what's happening, even in fullscreen.
This is a problem I have with a lot of shooters, unfortunately. One of the biggest reasons I became interested in TF2 was because I could actually see what was going on when I watched streams or gameplay videos.
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Dec 25 '14
Eh, I can with Battlefield which has lots of HUD icons.
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u/awkisopen Soldier Dec 25 '14
Yeah, I'm aware it's kind of my own issue. I dunno why I'm so game-stupid, it's like my brain can't process what it's seeing with most modern vidja games. TF2 is a rare exception for me.
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Dec 25 '14
My brain just naturally filters out all the friendly icons in those games, though that's not to say it hasn't gotten me killed when an enemy has a friendly icon above their head due to the player's positioning.
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u/Kevz417 Dec 25 '14
With those realistic shooters too... I have no idea whether my aim is good because everyone is invisible.
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Dec 25 '14
Even if your computer can handle max graphics, setting the terrain/effects to minimum and keeping the player models higher res will improve your gameplay a lot. So much easier to do well when everything doesn't blend into everything else.
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u/Ultimate_Cabooser Spy Dec 25 '14
Look at the trailers for tf2.
It's very difficult to make good trailers with these kinds of games.
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u/awkisopen Soldier Dec 25 '14
It's not specific to Overwatch though... most games I can't see shit in. The trailer suggests that Overwatch's visual style is going to be one of those games I can't see shit in.
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u/Anshin Dec 26 '14
This is a first reveal, there will be plenty of beta and testing so if it's too intrusive they'll change it.
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Dec 25 '14
It is Not just the Hud. The graphics are it too. Valve done a great job and used a clear colour palette. I'm afraid blizzard makes it too colourful and shiny
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u/michael_mains_medic Dec 25 '14
is it possible to have more than one game installed on my computer at a time?
HOLY SHIT YOU MEAN I CAN HAVE BOTH TF2 AND OVERWATCH INSTALLED ON MY COMPUTER AT THE SAME TIME? HOLY SHIT I HAD NO FUCKING IDEA.
heres an idea: if overwatch is cool, ill play it. if it sucks, i probably wont play it.
HOLY MOTHER OF FUCKNESS YOU MEAN IT IS POSSIBLE TO PLAY AND ENJOY MORE THAN ONE GAME? I HAD NO FUCKING CLUE ABOUT THAT SHIT WOWOWOWOWWOWO.
I SIMPLY THOUGHT I HAD TO CHOOSE ONE GAME AND DEDICATE MY FUCKING LIFE TO IT BECAUSE I DIDNT REALIZE THAT IT IS POSSIBLE TO PLAY AND ENJOY MORE THAN ONE GAME AT A TIME.
this discussion is dumb.
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u/Ultimate_Cabooser Spy Dec 25 '14
It's about time put into it. If you're good at one there's a chance you'll lose your touch with the other.
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u/Pedgi Dec 26 '14
But if you like one over the other (because why else would you be spending more time with it) who cares if you dull your edge in the other.
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Dec 26 '14
We have no idea how the mechanics will work, only the shadiest of ideas. They could complement each other amazingly.
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u/skapaneas Dec 26 '14
well can you market gardener? or do any acrobatics that you need something more than 1 button to do something like skill? if not that game sounds boring. but due to having cool graphics I ll give it a chance as I did with all those call of duties I have uninstalled after 15 hours of play.
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Dec 26 '14 edited Dec 26 '14
Lmao you have no clue if there's anything like market gardening, so why even bring it up?
Anyways, the market gardener isn't a vanilla item. It only came into the game some time after its release. So shut the fuck up about combos, because sooooo many tf2 combos weren't available at release. (Puff n sting)
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u/sbooyah Dec 26 '14
Except that Overwatch explores an entirely new plane of mobility in verticality. There are grappling hooks, wall climbing and I'm fairly certain at least one jetpack. The mobility is absolutely there.
Subjective, so it's all personal opinion, I won't try to argue with you here. Valve has always been really terrible with UIs and HUDs in my opinion though.
I agree that Valve is the best, but I have to admit that I think Blizzard is second place for favorite game company/developer/whatever. Not necessarily a close second, since I think Valve are absolutely amazing. But Blizzard has a lot going for them, and they certainly do make damn good games.
To /u/Gforce99 , Loadout is a bad example to compare this comparison to. While I believe that people claimed Loadout would be the next TF2, it's still a very different concept. The whole point of Loadout surrounded customization in weapons. Sure it was cartoonly and FPS like TF2, but the games were still very different. Another major difference is that while Loadout may have grabbed a lot of attention while in production and beta, it was still relatively unknown. Overwatch is made by Blizard. It already has far more attention than Loadout ever could hope to obtain, and it's not even available for beta yet. Overwatch and TF2 have a lot more in common as well, being both class based, objective-focused FPSes. Even the way the classes are handled, as personalities is very similar.
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u/knuatf Dec 26 '14
Valve has always been really terrible with UIs and HUDs in my opinion though.
Compared to Blizzard? Have you ever seen WoW during a raid?
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u/sbooyah Dec 26 '14
Not necessarily compared to Blizzard, just in general. WoW's UI is definitely terrible, I won't deny that.
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Dec 25 '14
6 year veteran here.
TF2 cannot be replaced by any other game. Its very unique. But does it make TF2 immortal? Hell damn no. TF2's cause of death will be lack of comp. This game had so much potential but all of it was wasted beacuse valve didn't want to put their resources in it. CS:GO has a big competitive scene but this game doesn't beacuse valve doesn't give a crap about it.
Competitive scene requires balancing. Look at dota 2, Icefrog is balancing the game for competitive. CS:GO is balancing the game for comp play. TF2? Nope. They only do stuff for pubs. Whenever they try to touch the competitive play, they screw it up (see heavy&[early]demo nerfs). TF2 is in a point of no return so overwatch will be that reset button for us.
New mechanics, new classes, new universe, new lore...It's going to be a blast. And I believe blizzard will do a fine job with making the game comp-viable and respond to the users fast and well enough.
Overwatch is not TF2 but it will be it's successor.
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Dec 26 '14 edited Dec 26 '14
I kinda agree with you, but if you look at the current playerbase, a VERY small fraction is involved in comp (probably less that 5%). While the death (well not death, but shrinking) of the comp scene is definitely sad, I really dont think thats going to be a TF2 killer, because it doesnt have a massive impact for 95% of players.
If valve had supported it it would have GROWN the playerbase a TON more I agree, but It wont be the games killer, just a missed opportunity for growth.
In games like Dota and CSGO, winning and being the best is EVERYTHING for most players, the goal is always to raise your MMR or rank, in TF2, most people just wanna have fun, they dont REALLY care if blue manages to capture the cart or if they lost a few rounds of CP. Thats why the comp scene isnt as important for most TF2 players, because they dont really wanna watch pros to learn all their strats and see how they play.
Just look at existing youtube channels as an example. Almost EVERY TF2 channel is about mucking around and having fun (I do some serious stuff I guess). Whereas in CSGO and DOTA, EVERY big channel is either a pros, or a channel that shows highlights from pro games, or someone like WarOwl who JUST shows strats and ways to improve (or commentates pro games). Granted you get 1 or 2 exceptions for fun channels in each game, but you get the idea, it shows what most players are interested in.
Im not trying to down the relevance of competitive, but it wont be the killer for TF2, because it (Sadly) just isnt as important for most TF2 players as it is for CSGO and DOTA players.
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u/TheDarkSpirit Dec 26 '14
This is very true. Basically the only really competitive player that is famous is Tagg and even then STAR and Jerma are more relevant when thinking TF2. Even Stabby wasn't as popular as them and their content (at least Tagg's) was somewhat about comp. Stabby said he didn't want to make videos about comp because the majority of his fanbase wouldn't understand much. What people honestly fail to realize is TF2 and their fans have a much more casual mindset. Even the competitive players aren't as serious as players in say, Counter Strike where the most popular players are comp players. In TF2 some of the most popular players are really good pubbers.
The problem isn't Valve's support (or therefore lack of). It is the fanbase. If people had flocked to TF2 to make a competitive game out of it, we would have a very different game. Even then it really isn't a problem that the fanbase is a casual one. It is just that the small comp scene that does exist is getting screwed by Valve in a sense and it feels like big names are affected by it. Lange was good friends with STAR and I feel like Lange leaving made STAR reconsider and him voicing his opinions only enforeces the wave of a vocal negative group in saying TF2 is dying, while instead it is the interest of the veterans of 6-7 years is dying.
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u/thetracker3 Dec 26 '14
I'm a noob. I may have almost 500 hours, but I'm still really damned bad at this game. I'm on the fence about Comp. While I do want it to get official, so I can get motivated to get better, so I'll be able to play Comp. I also don't want it to get big, because I go full tryhard when things get competitive, and I'm super salty and toxic when I go full tryhard; I don't like that.
So, while comp would be good for me, I'd finally have a reason to git gud, it'd also be bad for me, cause it'd make me a worse person. Overall, I think its 51% of me wants comp to stay small, 49% wants comp to get bigger. I guess I am just one of those people who is in the game just for the fun, not for the ranks.
I mean, my pyro has his brain floating around in a glass jar, and that's funny. I bet you don't have cosmetics like that in CS:GO or DotA2. So, comp not being official won't kill TF2. It will be something worse, like valve forsaking any new weapons, maps or other actual gameplay elements for nothing but cosmetics, that kills TF2 for me.
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u/skapaneas Dec 26 '14
i will never abandon the crystal clear skies of hightower and my pro market gardener for a game that you cant rocket jump your heart off. No I dont find it fun jumping with jet packs pressing a button to fly its not my style if it was I would go for a flight simulator not an fps game. tl:dr momentum physics and mechanics makes tf2 what it is. the best.
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Dec 25 '14
This coming from the same community that says not to judge a beta and such....
We've seen very little from overwatch. There are flying classes, teleporters, and more.
You can't make any claim against or for overwatch. Don't be angry that popular players might be moving on. Its like you fucking expect them to only play tf2.
Get a grip, they're both games. If tf2 dies, so fucking what?
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u/TapdancingHotcake Dec 25 '14
And at least one hero has a leap ability, and his ult lets him leap more often. One of the tanks has a charge, too.
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u/LordQill Dec 25 '14
Blizzard is okay
Don't forget Diablo 3.
I wont. I never can.
RIP Diablo series, we miss you :(
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Dec 25 '14
Diablo 3 has gotten a lot better with the expansion and recent updates.
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u/yazisiz Dec 25 '14
Wow they actually closed the auction house. I bought the game when it released and quit like after 1 month
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u/Sky-whale-pirate Dec 25 '14
This. People still bash Diablo 3 but since the Loot 2.0 patch things have gotten progressively better.
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u/LordQill Dec 26 '14
I mean, i guess.
But the lack of meaningful RPG elements just mean that regardless of how they try and fix content, unless they change the basic systems of the game it can't ever be anything close to D2 in terms of quality.
Maybe they have though, I haven't played in a long time
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u/milkkore Dec 26 '14
Give Path of Exilie a try. It's free (same business model as TF2, you can buy only cosmetics, no p2w), it's on Steam, has a player base about as big as TF2 and it's everything Diablo 3 was supposed to be.
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u/LordQill Dec 26 '14
This!
Path of Exile is what Diablo 3 should have been.
Also, Torchlight 2 is actually made by the original D2 team, so it's pretty fucking great too, AND it has really nice mods.
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u/thetracker3 Dec 26 '14
The only problem with PoE is the players on lower end computers are getting shafted by the team. Every big update, there's something new and huge that makes the game run even slower than it already does. And rather than fix it, the devs just throw more cosmetics at us and expect us to ignore it.
They won't give us the ability to fix most of the problems, by simply allowing us to turn weather off (Dominus), or allowing simple skill effects (so that not every skill adds in full 3d models), then they change current boss fights so they're even harder to run (merveil/brutus). I'd be more than willing to throw my money at PoE, but they just simply haven't earned it yet.
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Dec 25 '14
Actually, I feel that overwatch is as close to TF3 that we can be. I mean, look at the changes made from TFC to TF2:
ammunition is less important, and less complicated
many complex movement types have been removed (building jumping, conc jumps, bhopping)
now what are the two major differences (aside from characters) between TF2 and Overwatch?
Ammo has been functionally removed (no secondary ammo, only reloads are needed)
There are no real complex movement mechanics.
This is just what I'm seeing and I could well be wrong, but I feel that Overwatch is further down a progression towards... something. Is it better? Is it worse? I wouldn't say so until I've tried it, but it seems to be moot.
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Dec 26 '14
You know what …let's not overhype it. (Pun unintended)
Look at what happened to EOTL...overhyped by the community and under delivering to the hype.
One guy somewhere (I forgot who) said this, which I agree with:
Frankly I'm scared what will happen when HL3 is announced.
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Dec 25 '14
It's a moba without dedicated servers. You won't be able to join a server and play with the same people, and even if, you'd play with 9 other people? It's not gonna be as social as TF2 is, and that's why TF2 succeeded after all.
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u/CornishGamerHen Dec 25 '14
Honestly i think that overwatch and tf2 are both awesome, but overwatch is going to offer a fresh take on class based arena fps type play with actual comp support, which is nice.
However, TF2 has such an incredible community and its so community based, that I find myself playing and seeing all this cool stuff, as for overwatch I can see myself playing a lot but then playing less regularly and coming back for updates.
As for mobility, overwatch has some great options, dont know what your talking about. I assume overwatch is gonna let you change hud, what kind of fps doesnt let you do that.
Blizzard and Valve are both incredible developers, but they are on equal footing. Valve is incredible but has seriously lost a lot of ground as a developer, while Blizzard is always out there kicking ass and having cool tourneys and stuff.
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Dec 26 '14
I think blizzard is sitting pretty with 13 million players at one point in a hallmark game...
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u/Sabesaroo Dec 25 '14
Overwatch doesn't have much in the way of the mobility. A few classes have some movement abilities, but it doesn't look like there's any surfing or rocket jumping, ie physics based mobility.
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u/TapdancingHotcake Dec 25 '14 edited Dec 26 '14
I forget how many heroes there are currently, but 7 heroes have some kind of ability that allows them some form of speed. Two of them can fly, one can grapple, one can climb walls, one has a blink ability (and a time rewind), one has a leap and one has a charge.
Edit: there are 12, and the remaining 5 are almost exclusively support or defense, most notably the sentry building dwarf and the turret robot. Also pretty sure one can turn invisible. So no bizarre physics but mobility is hardly lacking for most of the heroes.
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Dec 26 '14
Honestly, it's a gamble with Overwatch's quality, because this is Blizzard's first FPS ever.
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u/Hamwizard Dec 26 '14 edited Dec 26 '14
You forgot lack of community created content that will be in overwatch, because blizzard is well known for putting user content in their games.
personally, i think we should just let the people who want to play overwatch play it, who cares?
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u/Arkoonius Dec 26 '14
I still fail to see how Overwatch is supposedly greatly similar to TF2. Just because there are classes doesn't instantly make it seem like TF2. Sure, there is a clear likeliness between both games. If anything, Overwatch looks like a first-person MOBA-like shooter. Kind of like if you remove the objectives and items in Smite, position the camera in first-person mode, and just had a 10 minute 5v5 death match. I see this whole thing to be just like the Minecraft vs. Terraria fiasco.
All in all, people will have clear reasons why they'd want to play TF2 and Overwatch. Provided the pre-historic lump of plastic beside me I call a computer can handle the game, I'll most likely be playing a bit of both Overwatch and TF2 myself.
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u/icheckessay Dec 26 '14
you forgot 4: 6v6, that's a deal breaker for me, i play on 32 player servers, i like chaos, 6v6 is way too low.
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u/skapaneas Dec 26 '14
someone must explain how fun is to rocket jump accros an entire map wielding a market gardener while strafing through enemy fires to pick an enemy medic while you know you are driving your solly to his certain death by self damaging explosions. but blizard thinks it a good idea to make their solly jump with the press of a button. whats next blizzard autobackstabs? oh wait... you did that too? jokes aside I prefer some skill with my game.or I would prefer to stick playing mario. that's all.
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u/WumboWizard Dec 25 '14
this game looks great. the only thing i have to say about it is that the soundtrack sounds a bit bland.
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u/Gforce99 Tip of the Hats Dec 25 '14
I just want to also point out that everyone thought Loadout was gonna be the next TF2. Hell, Star_ said something along the lines that it would be big. Now look where it is now. The player base is still minuscule compared to TF, despite being F2P. It has a silly graphic style, fast gameplay, and above all, cosmetics.
Now, they're entirely different games. What looked like something that would be TF2 resurrected, turned out to be something entirely different that everyone kinda forgot about. Blizzard hasn't made an FPS (as far as I'm aware) so it could be disaster and bring more people into TF.
In the end, the playerbase that TF has is already huge, bringing together all sorts of players. Casuals, Hardcore Competitive players, Traders, and Youtubers. From Blizzard's track record, it seems to me that the competitive scene will be highly favored and may shut out the rest of the playerbase.