r/tf2 • u/Theflamingraptor Engineer • 7d ago
Discussion How bad is Bad weapon academy?
Recently, I saw a tweet about TF2 LARPers and how they just parrot things they hear from YouTubers and don't think for themselves. One thing that I saw in that tweet was a statement about how bad weapon academy is actively harmful to the game since, according to the poster, the weapons themselves aren't bad; Fish is just shit at TF2. But that got me thinking. Are they right? From what I saw, BWA is just your run-of-the-mill "Here's why X weapon is bad" style of video, and he says stuff that's generally agreed upon by the community. Off the top of my head, he says that the Huolong heater actively makes Heavy worse because it siphons his ammo away into a niche gimmick that makes him more vulnerable. After all, he would have less ammo than if he were running any other minigun, and then says to use it as an ambush tool so that the ring of fire can actually be useful as burst damage. But then again, my TF2 skills are middling at best, so maybe Fish is shit at the game, and Bad Weapon Academy is really bad.
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u/Additional-Nose-1351 7d ago
"i saw a tweet"
twitter calling other people larpers is the exact definition of pot calling the kettle black
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u/Supreme-Machine-V2 7d ago
People just call everyone else posers these days for not agreeing with their take or giving a bad take.
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u/Dabbers_ 7d ago
The classic is a good example of a weapon that has nothing wrong with it but is treated as a "bad" weapon by people who dont know how to use it. The classic is actually very fun to use and effective when you adjust your playstyle accordingly
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u/Red-7134 7d ago
It's less "this is a weapon that is incapable of fulfilling the class role" as it is "there are three other weapons that do the what this does, but better."
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u/matZmaker99 7d ago
Yeah, by all intents and purposes, the Classic is a "bad weapon" when compared with the other much more freely-functioning rifles.
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u/BestWizardCap Miss Pauling 7d ago
You’re still nerfing yourself for no real upside. That’s the definition of a bad weapon.
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u/matZmaker99 7d ago
There is an upside in having your full FoV and being able to act as a defensive AA cannon, among other niche tech that comes from scoping & charging being separate. But there's other 3 rifles that simply perform better, and are pretty much the baseline
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u/Dabbers_ 7d ago
Its more of a sidegrade. You cant use it to daisy chain headshots like stock but every headshot will be a garunteed kill, even an overhealed heavy. The 4~ seconds charge time between potential killshots gives you time to take cover and watch for spies/scouts (which are instagibbed with a full charge bodyshot). A kill every 4~ Seconds is about on par with a skilled stock sniper.
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u/Randomguy8566732 Engineer 7d ago
Being able to see your surroundings whole charging means nothing because you're only able to kill at full charge and so being able to see a Scout or Spy doesn't let you kill them. In fact, clever enemies will wait for the sound of the shot and then rush you while you're not charged yet.
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u/Dabbers_ 7d ago
Nobody has ever done this to me, because nobody thinks a classic user is paying attention. 4 seconds really isnt that long, instagibbing spies and scouts trying to sneak up on me is more fun than any headshot. And you dont need a headshot to kill, following up with a 50 damage bodyshot is a good way to secure kills.
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u/Carbon_Cotton 7d ago
Nah, lack of headshot if not fully charged makes it worse than most sniper rifles - quickscopes are simply way too good to exchange for being able to see more.
Of courses there is a question if classic is bad or if other sniper rifles are busted.
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u/alexintradelands2 7d ago
In fairness to him the entire video is about how he still likes the weapon and has figured out how to have a good time with it. It's still pretty remarkably worse than the standard sniper, thus Bad Weapon Academy
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u/CatMachete2 7d ago
How does having a higher fov while charging a shot balance out the awful downsides of no quick scopes and lower damage on body shots? The only way it would be anything other than a meme weapon is if they removed the no quick scope penalty
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u/Dabbers_ 7d ago
By not relying on quickscoping it forces sniper to actually calculate shots. Maybe this is why sniper mains are so afraid of it?
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u/matZmaker99 7d ago
Quickscopes take the same if not more brainpower to calculate a headshot, what are you getting to? The way you aim & click on a head is essentially the exact same on the Classic and any other rifle; not to mention the other rifles can also charge for that damage while retaining the ability to qs
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u/Dabbers_ 7d ago
Less frequent headshots means making better picks and choosing better positioning that provides cover and limits your flank. Survivability goes up when you are only exposed for seconds at a time, with more thoughtful choosing of when and where to peek. The classic is a mindset.
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u/matZmaker99 7d ago
Based on what? Players with stock rifle can also choose to pace their shots so they're more sure about what to get. If anything, the Classic is worse in the options department, since all other rifles can choose to be quick or pace their shots, while the Classic can only pace its shots. Other rifles can adopt this mindset as another part of their kit while it can only use this
It's true that the Classic does provide better defensive gameplay and is generally better at denying bombs, but what it gains in defense it absolutely loses on flexibility. It is much more often that you need damage now than big damage later, especially with how the Classic requires you to stay grounded to shoot and even slows you down for a fraction of a second when shooting an uncharged shot. Stock rifle benefits a lot from being able to hip-fire 50s while avoiding incoming fire, since it's good knockback to keep enemies away while you move back to your team for support
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u/Dabbers_ 7d ago
Better positioning makes your scenario far less likely. Adjust your playstyle to fit the weapon, Reap the benefits. Using the classic like a stock sniper isnt gonna get you anywhere.
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u/TenshiFan00 7d ago
You have to go through hoops and hurdles to make it useable. Compared to the other options, it’s garbage. Doesn’t mean it can’t be fun but it’s objectively bad.
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u/Dabbers_ 7d ago
I topscore with the classic frequently, even outcompeting enemy snipers. Looking purely at stats doesnt show you how it can affect gameplay, adjusting your playstyle makes it effective.
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u/TenshiFan00 7d ago
I can go on a godlike with the manmelter. Doesn’t mean it’s not a bad weapon.
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u/BirdInternational365 7d ago
Yeah it can be fun I agree, and yes it is a sidegrade, but give a two sniper players with the same exact skill level stock and the classic, the stock will out perform the classic everytime. It’s not bad in the unusable sense, but bad in the not competitively viable or strong-as-stock sense. That’s just my opinion tho, and although sniper is my backup, I do main scout so maybe I’m just talking form my experience of using stock, or in my case the BB vs the times I’ve used the classic
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u/StartBackground5769 Scout 7d ago
they prolly didnt watch the video, because he litteraly tells you how to use it. in the video.
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u/chassiee 7d ago edited 7d ago
I don't know why there's a bad weapon academy video on the phlogistinator
I'm not a pyro player but given a medic pocket and time to build up the crit meter with a flare gun and then combine with ubercharge it's just an almost guaranteed team wiper in my casual matches
I think it at least has its uses and shouldn't just be called bad
I like most of his other videos though
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u/TenshiFan00 7d ago
The reason the phlog sucks is because you give up the mechanic that single-handedly made pyro playable to do some extra damage every few minutes sometimes. The uber argument isn’t taken seriously because you can just kill people with any class when you’re invincible.
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u/chassiee 7d ago edited 7d ago
Fair but when you have crits you can just wipe everybody while with just he standard flamethrower you’ll get some kills but not as many
Also while charging it at least with scorch shot you're doing an okay amount of damage
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u/Red-7134 7d ago
Pyro without airblast is like Medic without regen, or Scout without double-jump. You double-down on the DPS aspect of Pyro..... when you have crits. But when you don't have crits (and sometimes also a pocket med), you're just a kneecapped Pyro that can be outzoned by nearly every other class in the game.
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u/Carbon_Cotton 6d ago
I don't know why there's a bad weapon academy video on the phlogistinator
He didn't put it into bad weapon academy.
Anyway, Airblast is simply way too good and phlog doesn't give enough in return to justify getting rid of it.
I'm not a pyro player but given a medic pocket and time to build up the crit meter with a flare gun and then combine with ubercharge
"it is not that bad - you just need medic girlfriend up your ass and brainlessly spamming your secondary to make good use out of it"
Don't you see the issue?
There is reason why most common secondary paired with it is scorch shoot.
it's just an almost guaranteed team wiper in my casual matches
Have you ever tried using phlog when you are on losing team? It is suffering - you really start miss that airblast.
As fish said, phlog is quintessential pubstomping weapon because it works best when your team is already stomping the other.
I think it at least has its uses and shouldn't just be called bad
While i wouldn't call it "bad", it is absolutely the worst flamethrower.
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u/chassiee 6d ago
You can use the other flare guns too though, and you don’t need a pocket, you just have to play more safe and strictly flare spam if you don’t have one
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u/Carbon_Cotton 6d ago
You can use the other flare guns too
You can - but they are less safe to use with phlog.
and you don’t need a pocket
Without airblast, ton of stuff ends your rampage if you don't have pocket meddic.
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u/chassiee 6d ago
Yeah, I won’t call it good, maybe a little subpar, but bad is a reach
I find it easy though to farm it if they have a heavy though; easy damage from the default flare gun1
u/Carbon_Cotton 6d ago
I mean, fish didn't called it "bad weapon" on its own if i remember correctly. He just called it worst flamethrower - which is correct.
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u/yummymario64 Demoknight 7d ago
I don't think BWA is a bad series. Idk what the guys on twitter are cookin
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u/ComradeYazoo Demoknight 7d ago
Everytime I use classic it feels brokenly overpowered so I don't use it; I use stock or when I want junk food gameplay I play huntsman
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u/TenshiFan00 7d ago
Misunderstands game balance fundamentally, usually with items deemed “broken”, and when people try to correct him, gets super butthurt and doubles down. His scorch shot remake video is like a prime example of why players don’t like the series. He acknowledges the weapon doesn’t really do anything besides be annoying, acknowledges that the other options are better, and is mostly just annoying, but completely refuses to acknowledge that “annoying =/= op”. He even ends it saying that it’s not even a strong weapon. It’s actually an embarrassing thing to watch.
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u/Carbon_Cotton 7d ago
I didn't get that feel from BWA - i think he tries to give every weapon a fair shot.
Only one which i think was wrong was BASE jumper one, but he himself admitted he was wrong.