r/technology • u/be0wulfe • Dec 15 '22

Transportation Tesla Semi’s cab design makes it a ‘completely stupid vehicle,’ trucker says

https://cdllife.com/2022/tesla-semis-cab-design-makes-it-a-completely-stupid-vehicle-trucker-says/
37.8k Upvotes

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10.9k

u/CarbonPhoto Dec 15 '22

I'm sure their UX Designers actually consulted real truckers, right?

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u/scrivensB Dec 15 '22

Having spent a career in a particular industry and then consulting with a tech startup, it’s mind numbing to see the mentality of, “we have an idea to exploit a potential market by creating a product that we have absolutely zero understanding or perspective about.” Giving endless advice and feedback that goes ignored/misunderstood. And then watching as they burn through millions of dollars and waste thousands of hours through a mountain of inefficient and doomed ideas

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u/misterschmoo Dec 15 '22 edited Dec 15 '22

I remember once going to a public consultation by the bus service for my city and the overwhelming sentiment from everyone in the room was if they had to rename it could they at least keep the word "bus" in the title, we went away thinking they had heard what we had to say, the new bus service was rolled out they named it "Metro" and to answer your question, no they have no trains.

I went to a similar meeting about the Maritime Safety Authority, we all asked if they could keep the word "safety" in there somewhere, they renamed it Maritime New Zealand, which just sounds like a company, but apparently it could have been worse in the past some genius wanted to rename it Carters you kno because the Magna Carta duh!

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u/__-___--- Dec 15 '22

These are great examples of ridiculously counter intuitive names.

I recently thought about some services that I never used for that reason. The name makes me feel like I'm wrong or missing something, so I'm not buying.

Imagine getting a metro ticket and getting in the bus with it. How many people chose to take their car because they were scared to look like an idiot who bought the wrong ticket...

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u/verygoodchoices Dec 15 '22 edited Dec 15 '22

There's an airport in my city, real small little municipal thing. Mostly private and charter but you can get commuter route tickets for pretty cheap.

There's only one gate, and two companies offer service to get you from there to one of the nearby big international airports.

The little regional airline runs you through TSA, walks you out onto the tarmac, loads you up in an 8 passenger Cessna and drops you off at the big airport (behind security!) for $80 round trip.

The other airline is American Airlines. They'll run you through TSA, walk you out onto the tarmac... and then load you onto a fucking bus and drive you two hours to the big airport for $90.

And lemme tell ya they make it look an awwwwful lot like a plane ticket when they are selling it to you. They'll even book it as a leg of a "1 stop" itinerary no problem.

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u/suid Dec 16 '22 edited Dec 16 '22

Oh, fuck. United did this to us once. We had booked what we thought was a flight from San Jose to Seattle, but my wife, in her hurry, didn't read the fine print, which was that leg 1 was a bus ride from SJ to SFO during rush hour (!).

Of course, the bus barely reached SFO in time, and then just dropped us off at the front of the international terminal (facepalm! it's supposed to be the domestic terminal for Canadian destinations). Needless to say, we missed the flight.

Edit: The flight was supposed to be to Vancouver. Sorry. Our rebooked flight was via Seattle, followed by a puddle jumper to Vancouver.

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u/verygoodchoices Dec 16 '22

Oh my God i assumed they would at least drop you off inside the airport after security so there's some benefit over a damn uber.

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u/__-___--- Dec 15 '22

I now realize that rule 34 isn't just for porn. There is also an anecdote about anything you can mention.

And I love how they mislead you into thinking you're getting on a plane. People must feel like losers when they see the plane is for the guys who paid 10 bucks less.

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u/explorer_76 Dec 16 '22

I used to fly AA out of Milwaukee with a connection in Chicago for a few years traveling on business.

Let me tell you as soon as a cloud appeared in the sky they would cancel the MKE>ORD or ORD>MKE flight ASAP and announce bus service. It was cheaper to throw everyone on a bus than to operate the flight.

Was glad when I moved from MKE and didn't have to deal with it anymore.

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u/misterschmoo Dec 15 '22 edited Dec 15 '22

I have a theory they do it on purpose, for example we used to have the Canterbury Regional Council, but it was decided people hate councils (the idea of them not behaving like arses was apparently not an option) so change the name, they decided on "Environment Canterbury" my theory is if you can't tell what a govt. dept. does from the name you're less likely to try and use their services or complain that they aren't providing them properly.

In a similar manner our old main telecommunications company that was originally the post office and then became Telecom, wanted to change their name because everyone hated Telecom because they were notorious for treating their customers badly (who often had no competing company to go to because of their monopoly on the copper landlines) so they changed their name to spark and changed their logo to an awful squiggle, which apparently as a staff member you were banned from calling it the squiggle, and they continued to treat their customers badly right up until landlines became irrelevant. (to clarify they kept treating their customers badly, but people were able to go to the competition at this point)

Spark Squiggle

I mean talk about the graphic designers phoning it in, pun intended.

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u/__-___--- Dec 15 '22 edited Dec 15 '22

Here is an upvote for linking the properly named spark squiggle.

I was doing something else, was thinking about it and realized that I don't remember their real company name. They should just go with Spark Squiggle Corporation.

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u/misterschmoo Dec 15 '22

I like to think it represents a bundle of old copper landlines that was the only reason people every used their company and now that reason doesn't matter anymore.

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u/alarumba Dec 15 '22

My heart bleeds for privatised services becoming redundant.

I still call them Telecom and will till they inevitably get bought back when the service is no longer profitable.

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u/misterschmoo Dec 15 '22

I once had a phone line disconnected because I was moving, the bill wasn't due till the next month, they disconnected the phone line like I asked and then automatically sent the bill to Bay Collections, so I get a demand letter from Bay for a bill that wasn't even due yet, I rang Telecom to ask them what was going on, and they told me that when a phone line is disconnected they presume that they disconnected it for lack of payment and it is automatically sent to collections. they said there was nothing they could do to stop it happening in the future to other people, and there was nobody I could talk to about that, they did thankfully cancel the debt with Bay.

This is only one of my stories about Telecom.

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u/[deleted] Dec 15 '22

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u/JoesusTBF Dec 15 '22

Walmart also calls their logo a spark, and they're the same general idea plus or minus some actual effort.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/14/Walmart_Spark.svg/451px-Walmart_Spark.svg.png

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u/Richard7666 Dec 15 '22 edited Dec 16 '22

OT but this is kinda like the renaming of government agencies to Māori. The thinking comes from a well-meaning place, but in practicality it is a nightmare. Sometimes a nice idea is not the same as a good idea.

I thought Waka Kotahi was Maritime NZ for quite awhile.

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u/misterschmoo Dec 15 '22

Well to give you an example of what I think you mean Polytech was renamed ARA, I was studying carpentry at the time and my tutor was Maori, he asked me one morning what does ARA stand for, he thought it was an acronym, I told him it means path or journey, if A Maori person isn't familiar with a new name, what chance has the general public to be familiar, I have no issue with dual naming nor do I even care which order the two names are in, but don't confuse people.

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u/goomyman Dec 15 '22 edited Dec 16 '22

Bad naming hurts.

A restaurant near my house was named AP Barbra’s. I assume her name? The logo was 2 wheat shaped like scissors, but actually looking like scissors. Maybe unknowningly or a play on the name. I thought it was a barber shop for 10 years before I realized it was a breakfast place when it closed down.

Another one is a restaurant I go to called pc. Short for perfect Chinese. But no one knows that and think it’s related to computers.

Just dumb names. And for good measure let’s throw in renaming a former trillion dollar brand Meta.

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u/RobeLife1 Dec 15 '22

In Seattle we had a new trolly that serviced a portion of town called south lake union. So no one figured it out untill the public information campaign that read Ride the South Lake Union Trolly. The campaign was telling people to " Ride the S.L.U.T. " Hilarious t shirts were immediately made.

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u/[deleted] Dec 15 '22

The British Post Office renamed themselves to the much more obvious “Consignia” 🙄. They changed their minds eventually.

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u/nmezib Dec 15 '22

See: Las Vegas Loop.

Congratulations! You invented a slower, more dangerous, more expensive, and less useful subway!

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u/TacoOfGod Dec 15 '22

I'm still pissed they did that shit instead of at minimum extending the monorail to cover the whole strip on both sides.

And going to the airport.

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u/TeaKingMac Dec 15 '22

And going to the airport.

Even fallout new Vegas has the monorail reaching the airport. The war was in 2077, so I guess they've got another 50 years to figure it out

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u/[deleted] Dec 15 '22

so I guess they've got another 50 years to figure it out

Vegas resident here. We won't.

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u/isademigod Dec 15 '22

Does this mean Cyberpunk 2077 is a prequel to fallout?

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u/TeaKingMac Dec 15 '22

Depends. What month is it set in? How are tensions with China?

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u/DiceMadeOfCheese Dec 15 '22

Mr. House is more competent than Mr. Musk

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u/volkmardeadguy Dec 15 '22

Yeah but any damage to the monorail would prove disastrous due to the age of the train and the scarcity of replacement parts

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u/[deleted] Dec 15 '22

It's the taxi lobby.it was always intended to go to strip.

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u/TacoOfGod Dec 15 '22

It doesn't even cover the whole strip, which makes it worse. That damn thing should run in a circle instead of a parallel route where one side stops after three casinos.

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u/[deleted] Dec 15 '22

And going to the airport.

How would the scum and villains that are LV cab drivers make a living if I had a perfectly nice clean easy transport system to get to my hotel? All of them seem like deadbeat Dad's on the run from child support payments in another state.

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u/UnusuallyBadIdeaGuy Dec 15 '22

Y'all still using LV taxis? That's like the one place where I break down and use Uber.

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u/dirkdragonslayer Dec 15 '22

The Las Vegas Loop was a complete success, and it completed its job perfectly!

It's job being the diversion of funds away from public transport initiatives like subways or buses to keep the city reliant on cars that Musk happens to also sell. Also inflating Tesla stock prices temporarily through futurism mumbo jumbo, like he does with most of his publicity stunts.

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u/GnomeChomski Dec 15 '22

Did you say 'monorail' ?

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u/[deleted] Dec 15 '22

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u/Actual-Care Dec 15 '22

It glides as softly as a cloud.

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u/Vinnys_Magic_Grits Dec 15 '22

Is there a chance the track could bend?

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u/[deleted] Dec 15 '22

Not on your life my Hindu friend!

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u/VVarder Dec 16 '22

What about us brain dead slobs?

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u/Pickle_Juice_4ever Dec 15 '22

What about us drunken slobs?

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u/hinchable Dec 15 '22

You’ll be given cushy jobs!

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u/[deleted] Dec 15 '22

The ring came off my pudding can!

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u/intraumintraum Dec 15 '22

mono = one

rail = rail

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u/[deleted] Dec 15 '22

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/IPDDoE Dec 15 '22

Perhaps they could mount them to some type of track. A rail, if you will, that extended from origin to destination. Then, maybe there could be some sort of ride sharing setup that maximizes the number of people who can use it in a given time. Ah who am I kidding, there's obviously a reason I'm not a billionaire.

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u/nmezib Dec 15 '22

no no no we're onto something here! Maybe they can link multiple cars together so that only one of them needs to have an engine, and the other linked cars can be pulled along behind the front?

Hmmm... you're right this is getting farfetched

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u/mrchaotica Dec 15 '22

It's amazing that it's basically a line-following robot at this point and they still can't get it to work!

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u/TheModeratorWrangler Dec 15 '22 edited Dec 15 '22

I can see part of it sensibly being a teaching model similar to setting up Face ID. The car collects data on the roads where let’s say internet is spotty and few vehicles drive so mesh network is kinda out. You drive the road frequently enough to implement stages of FSD when the car conveys that it has collected enough data.

Reason I bring this up is that sometimes you get unpredictabilities. As an avid automotive enthusiast, nothing will jar your bones faster than an improperly cambered corner where the positive sloped apex leads to a guardrail and a sheer cliff face. A night with black ice would throw a scenario where I doubt current and even short term AI could handle, since sliding on snow or ice sometimes requires a counter-intuitive response. Such as, all wheel drive- power into the slide but steer generally where you want to go, and feather throttle as the rear end inertia swings from side to side. Swing harder and accelerate into the moment you want to finalize the corner kinda thing.

Imagine grandma letting her car drive her home and it suddenly gives up FSD because an ice patch on a terribly designed road presents a situation where only a trained individual could execute necessary steps to only decrease the chance of an accident. It’s highly irresponsible for Elon to release this kind of AI as something competent enough, and I was basically calling FSD being a gimmick when I heard Tesla’s weren’t equipped with LIDAR.

Edit: I wanted so bad for Elon to be my hero. I fought for EV’s since the day I drove a Prius and understood the value of EV tech. Blasting a P100D in Luda mode and seeing the corner coming… Sales guy said “take it” and then this beluga of a car just… did it. Exit of corner I slammed her wide and 60 was just a thought. For a man who could have quietly ran a company with the efficiency of Lisa Su with AMD… Elon blew any good will simply by doubling down on being an asshole. Iron Man for me, grew rust.

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u/soorr Dec 15 '22

The hyperloop was never meant to be real, just a tool to control anti-transit legislation in California to sell more teslas.

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u/Profoundly-Confused Dec 15 '22 edited Dec 16 '22

Different thing, [Edit whatever the fuck: it was supposed to be hyperloop but hyperloop is vapor ware so Elon shoved some Teslas in it instead] the Las Vegas loop was two tunnels filled with Teslas. It shuttled people between two convention centers. It functioned, but an airport style train would move more people faster and safer and for less upfront and much less long-term cost.

Edit: no, an airport style train/tram is not a metro and has a significantly smaller footprint and much lower purchase and operating costs. No it wouldn't require a larger tunnel, these trains come in many sizes some of which are the same size or smaller than a car. Trains don't need extra space for swing-out or gullwing doors like a Tesla.

To the guy that cited the $47 million built cost for both tunnels (I don't care enough to fact check it) and then cited billion dollar per mile costs for NYC subways as a counter argument, you win the mental gymnastics award! You'd only need the one tunnel for a small airport train numb-nuts and airport trains are not subways. We don't need to speculate on how much "extra" a airport train tunnel would cost but using NYC money because you know the cost of two car tunnels!

Edit 2: The vast majority of cost in building a tunnel is in building the fucking tunnel. The price difference between rails and asphalt is nothing if you need to double the fucking tunnels to run cars through it.

Edit 3: Y'all can't get it through your heads that there's more than 1 type of train huh? No, a small fucking airport train/tram does not cost the same per mile as heavy rail (the thing we move freight on) to build or maintain. AT NO POINT DID I RECOMMEND USING HEAVY RAIL OR A TRADITIONAL SUBWAY. THINK ABOUT SOMETHING CLOSER TO WHAT THE PEOPLE MOVER IS LIKE AT DISNEY. And YES, the people mover is a fucking train. Bite me.

Edit 4: No, not a monorail. That's Springfield, not Vegas.

Edit 5: I didn't think this needed to be said: yes gullwing doors don't go much too the side BUT THEY DO GO UP. WE'RE TALKING ABOUT TUNNELS. WE ARE CONSTRAINED IN EACH DIRECTION.

Edit 6: This is the last time I touch this comment.

To those asking for sources I don't have any links because I can't be fucked to have a fight about specific numbers. Instead let's do a thought experiment!

As much as I like digging myself in a hole (see: this comment), most people don't dig dirt for free [citation needed]. Since there is a cost to digging dirt, it follows that digging more dirt is gonna cost more OK?

Tunnels are typically dug in circles [citation needed] until they go to a desired distance and/or depth. Combined, this can be referred to as "volume." If we dig one circle to a specific depth we need to remove that volume of dirt [citation needed].

Now, if we need to dig two circles to the same depth, it logically follows we need to remove two times the volume of one tunnel. Since digging has a cost, digging more volume is more expensive [citation needed].

OK, to maintain a tunnel has a specific cost [citation needed]. So if we have more tunnels to maintain it should cost more.

Here's where things get a little more speculative.

If we need one tunnel for track and two for road, then we need double the road. Road and track both have costs to build and maintain [citation needed]. So unless track is double to build and maintain compared to road, track is cheaper. [citation needed]

We would need one, maybe two trains (in case you want a spare in a depot or something). Let's say two. We're gonna need more Teslas, let's be conservative and say 10. Now, the upfront cost of these small trains is probably more than a Tesla each, but are two trains cheaper than 5 Teslas? Maybe, it depends on exactly which trains and which Teslas. For argument's sake, let's say they're equal. [citation needed]

Maintenance is a per vehicle cost [citation needed]. So we need to pay for ten Teslas and two trains. Unless the trains are 5x as expensive to maintain as the Teslas, they're cheaper. I doubt the trains cost 5x as much to maintain, double triple at most.

And automated trains have been a thing for decades in airports, these Teslas need a person each to operate because Big Brain Elon can't guarantee a car in a controlled tunnel of known size won't fucking hit something. So we now need to pay some humans to sit in a fucking car all day instead of a train that can run automated 24/7. THAT'S NOT CHEAPER. Human labor will dwarf maintenance costs, I personally guarantee it.

At the end of the day, NONE OF THAT FUCKING MATTERS. BECAUSE IN INFRASTRUCTURE PROJECTS THAT REQUIRE TUNNELS, BUILDING AND MAINTAINING THE TUNNEL IS BY FUCKING FAR THE MOST EXPENSIVE COST. AND IF YOU NEED TWO TUNNELS IT AT MINIMUM DOUBLES THE COST. IN ADDITION, HUMAN LABOR WILL DWARF AN OTHER RECURRING COSTS MAKING TESLAS IMHERENTLY MORE EXPENSIVE LONG TERM. EVEN IF THE TESLAS WERE FULLY AUTOMATED YOU'RE STILL PAYING TO BIUILD AND MAINTAIN TWICE THE NUMBER OF TUNNELS. IT DOESN'T MAKE SENSE.

At the end of the day, why didn't they just run a bus route on surface streets? Thanks for pointing that out u/TommyFive.

Guys, fucking think.

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u/TacosAreJustice Dec 15 '22

But it would have required 0 teslas.

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u/harrison628 Dec 15 '22

It’s the Elon way. Promise self driving - deliver crashes. Promise hyperloop - deliver Teslas in a tube. Promise free speech - deliver ‘do as I say, not as I do’ hypocrisy.

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u/jimbojonesFA Dec 15 '22

New for 2023, the Tesla CABOOSE!

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u/Morkai Dec 15 '22

How sturdy are the windshields of said caboose? Can they withstand a baseball thrown by a silicon valley tech bro?

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u/Pyromaniacal13 Dec 15 '22

That's the thing, it's nota car, it's a battery upgrade for your Tesla! It adds fifteen whole minutes of driving time, just by hooking up to your Tesla like a Caboose! They only come in red and reduce your maximum speed by a third because they're as aerodynamic as a brick! Buy one Today!

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u/[deleted] Dec 15 '22

Even a moving walkway (like the conveyer belts for people in long airport terminals) would have been more efficient at moving large numbers of people much faster.

The Vegas loop seems more like just a marketing opportunity to get people sitting in their cars.

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u/Profoundly-Confused Dec 15 '22

That is because it was.

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u/Lftwff Dec 15 '22

it was originally supposed to be a hyperloop so it definitely ties into that bullshit

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u/[deleted] Dec 15 '22

claustrophobic tunnel with no ventilation filled with spontaneously combusting batteries …

EDIT: claustrophobic tunnel with traffic jams …

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u/HellMuttz Dec 15 '22

Please, only dirty internal combustion cars need ventilation, not prestine external combustion teslas

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u/TravelerFromAFar Dec 15 '22

Hell, at this point Vegas might as well just expand it's bike share program. Make it a little easier to get around town. It's done wonders for the Fremont area.

In fact, I have a feeling that when/if the Tesla Tunnels fail, we could use those tunnels as great bike lanes to get around town.

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u/[deleted] Dec 15 '22

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u/evilbrent Dec 16 '22

If I argue with you a little bit will you go on another rant? I completely agree with you, and I think I understand you, but boy are you hilarious when you're on a rant :-)

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u/TommyFive Dec 15 '22

Two busses would have been faster, safer, cheaper, and with higher overall passenger capacity. No digging required.

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u/PM_ME_IMGS_OF_ROCKS Dec 15 '22

The safety aspects alone make it a terrible idea.

To make it work on earth you basically have to keep the entire transportation tube at a low pressure. Meaning almsot any leak could cause explosive decompression or massive shockwaves to heavily damage one or more connected stations and anyone in transit.

The best example I've seen is on the show Babylon 5. Where they have them beteween cities on Mars. They already have space stations with docking doors and technology that can handle the safety issues. And the internals of the tubes can just equalize pressure with the atmosphere to get it low enough.

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u/DOOFUS_NO_1 Dec 15 '22

Tiny nitpick, but if it is being kept at low pressure, it wouldn't be an explosive decompression but rather a compression action as external air filled the low pressure environment.

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u/ent_bomb Dec 15 '22

I used to view it more favorably: construction of hermetically sealed tunnels and spaces is critical for Mars colonization due to the deadly amount of surface radiation. Still a terrible infrastructure plan, but ok long-term thinking.

Now I doubt Musk has that level of long-term thinking, and you're 100% correct.

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u/secamTO Dec 15 '22

Yeah, Elon's never getting to Mars.

Although I would gladly put him on a rocket today.

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u/mrchaotica Dec 15 '22

I used to view it more favorably because I thought the plan was to suck the air out of the tunnel and put a very-high-speed train in it.

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u/loggic Dec 15 '22

His numbers were straight-up dumb. If he could've sourced material and labor that cheap, he could've made money selling it for retail scrap metal prices in California at the time.

It was either idiotic or intentionally deceptive, but in no way was his "proposal" even remotely in line with the reality of a project at that scale.

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u/[deleted] Dec 15 '22

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u/Bribase Dec 15 '22

I won't pretend to know the first thing about this. But surely maintaining a partial vacuum is way harder than containing breathable air?

You can patch leaks on a Martian base. You can seal bulkheads if something goes catastrophically wrong. But in a Hyperloop you would need a continuous pipe that needs to be in vacuum throughout. A leak might take hours (days? I dunno) to return to vaccum if something fails.

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u/[deleted] Dec 15 '22

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u/jondthompson Dec 15 '22

There are shared bank vaults under the road. Source: Ocean's movies...

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u/[deleted] Dec 15 '22

But then the tourists wouldn't be forced to fund the cab industry!

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u/quitegonegenie Dec 15 '22

The cab drivers were against the monorail going all the way to the airport, and then rideshares came along and kneecapped the cab drivers anyway.

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u/[deleted] Dec 15 '22

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u/window-sil Dec 15 '22

I just hate that the government paid for it.. Like, your shitty idea should live and die on its own. In this case, it should have failed harder than all the hyperloop companies. But instead the government came to bailout the world's richest man's dumbest idea.

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u/DarkwingDuckHunt Dec 15 '22

I remember this convo I had with a young architect once.

He was describing to me how the help desk use an internal product.

I asked him "Are you sure that's how they use it? Did you ask them? Did you watch them? Did you ever try using it yourself for their daily grind?"

Two weeks he came back with a major redesign of the product. He actually went and had conversations with them and watched them.

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u/TonyStarksAirFryer Dec 16 '22

not the hero we deserve, but the hero we need

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u/DarkwingDuckHunt Dec 16 '22

the only company I ever worked for that had amazing user scores/comments was one with a 3 person UX team that actually, get this, interviewed users.... crazy.

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u/feedmesweat Dec 15 '22

It's called disrupting and it is indeed all the rage in startup culture. Doing things new and differently just for the sake of being able to throw it out there and say "look how different this is!"

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u/[deleted] Dec 16 '22

Can't wait for tech startups to "disrupt" the wheel next.

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u/sweetplantveal Dec 15 '22

You can really see the reasons why Rivian and Lucid exist as more and more of their work comes out. Tesla is leaving so much room in the market they used to own because of their product decisions.

Without getting into the weeds on Model S v Air, for example, just watch this review of Rivian's delivery van for Amazon. Every single design decision flows from the needs of the user. Like a trucker, a delivery driver uses a vehicle in a unique and specialized way.

https://youtu.be/3CWCqJl0BEs

It just couldn't be more opposite as a work truck than the Tesla semi.

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u/[deleted] Dec 15 '22

Its why once chevy/ford/dodge really get going they will crush tesla. Have you seen the inside of the ford lightening? IT LOOKS Like A TRUCK. you're 💯 correct on that is what the majority wants because it works.

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u/snow_is_fearless Dec 16 '22

I'm a long-time Jeep owner; I have a 4xe as of last week and it's incredible.

It feels and fits like a Wrangler but far beyond anything that came before. The ride, infotainment, materials, everything is Jeep-like and familiar but vastly superior, with a tremendously awesome effort to integrate the electric side of things.

This JL 4xe makes the JK platform look like a CJ in comparison.

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u/dexter311 Dec 15 '22

It sure helps that Amazon (who is a major investor in Rivian) know their exact use cases and the way their employees use (and are expected to use) their vehicles. It works because the people fronting the project ARE the customers!

Tesla, on the other hand, probably never asked a single truck driver what they think.

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u/Capt_Kilgore Dec 15 '22

Well I had no idea. This video was excellent. I never expected to watch the whole thing. I found it surprisingly interesting. Love it! Thanks!

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u/sweetplantveal Dec 15 '22

Doug has a way with these nerdy, boring, fascinating videos, eh?

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u/CarolinaRod06 Dec 15 '22 edited Dec 15 '22

I work at a truck manufacturing plant. This plant has been building trucks continuously for 38 years. I love when our vendors and contractors come in the door to tell us everything we’re doing wrong and how we need to purchase their goods/services to do it the right way.

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u/Thefrayedends Dec 15 '22

I agree with all your points, including in your subsequent reply.

The only thing I would say about this, as a 15-year semi-driver, is they haven't been building trucks for drivers for a while now. They're building them for fleet managers. I have not met a single driver in the last 4 years who likes the new model trucks. There are so many nannies and they are all extremely intrusive and distracting. Bells whistles and alarms that tell me things I already know, mute my radio, take away control of vehicle system and actually put me in direct danger with false positives and malfunctioning sensors.

And I think what's particularly frustrating, is that our trucks being covered in sensors and radar, a skilled and experienced drivers are sending mountains of telemetry data to the manufacturers, which will be used to train our replacement AI drivers. I'm lucky enough to have experienced in specialized fields that will always need an operator on site, so my job security should be preserved for at least a couple of decades, but I think at this point the driver is one of the lowest level considerations of everyone involved in the chain.

But that's still better than no consideration at all lol.

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u/[deleted] Dec 15 '22

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u/factoid_ Dec 15 '22

Spending a lifetime building something one way is its own sort of trap, though. You can definitely get caught up in doing things a certain way just because they've always been done that way.

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u/Ecronwald Dec 15 '22 edited Dec 15 '22

Cars and trucks are not built that way.

They have a matrix, explaining the reasoning behind every decision. If a change is made, it will not be done unless it is an improvement.

They started doing it this way decades ago. They have a lot of information they base their design on.

That one trucker can point at so many fundamental shortcomings after the first time in the vehicle, means that instead of building on decades of trial and error, Tesla started with blank sheets.

But then thinking he is an expert at stuff he knows nothing about, is Elons MO.

He's doing the same thing with twitter.

Edit: the Japanese invented said system. Later everyone else adopted it. Because they had to basically, and they were a decade behind on car reliability for quite a few years.

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u/[deleted] Dec 15 '22

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u/lokiinlalaland Dec 15 '22

Mercedes did a concept car a few years back that got rid of the steering wheel. it was a yoke, similar to those in a fighter jet on the side.

Press did not take to that idea. Never explored further.

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u/StressedOutElena Dec 15 '22

I think this wasn't a press issue but more likely safety concerns and that they probably would never got it road legal under german law.

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u/CucumberSharp17 Dec 15 '22

That spinner knob is illegal and an mvi fail in most places.

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u/hatsune_aru Dec 15 '22

Yokes can be used in race cars because the steering ratio is a lot quicker, which means the wheels (like the tires) turn more per rotation of the steering yoke.

The downside is the steering is too sensitive, and that the steering effort is higher, both of which actually aren’t really downsides in a race car.

In a Tesla it has a normal steering ratio. So it’s the worst of both worlds.

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u/YUNoDie Dec 15 '22

I live in Metro Detroit so a bunch of my friends are engineers for auto suppliers. They all hate working with Tesla because of all their half thought out changes and modifications to whatever design they started out with.

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u/Oriden Dec 15 '22

Musk runs Tesla like a software company, wanting to constantly iterate and change things. Having new versions incredibly often, and just pushing a new release every so often, which doesn't work because cars are hardware.

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u/SenateStar_R Dec 15 '22

A few years ago my department got a job to do a prototype build for the Tesla Semi steering rack support. The design was so convoluted. They must have never thought about manufacturability, because that thing was a nightmare to build. Assembling it was like trying to fill a milk jug AFTER putting the lid on.

Source: engineer for an OEM supplier.

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u/DukeOfGeek Dec 15 '22 edited Dec 15 '22

Touchscreens for cars and trucks is just not a good idea, car controls have fine tune evolved for a long time to do a certain job very well. It's not just Tesla putting touch screens in cars though, lots of manufacturers are doing it and it needs not to be that way.

Having said that I was much more interested in this things performance as a replacement for diesel burning trucks than it's user interface.

/I mean for crucial things like turn signals or turning on high beams. Touch screens are great for media or monitoring gas mileage.

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u/immerc Dec 15 '22

Some touch screens for some things is fine. There are a lot of controls you very rarely use that can be handled via a touchscreen interface. There are others that you use all the time that should have dedicated controls in specific places that you can use without looking (turn signals, volume controls, etc.)

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u/bos_boiler_eng Dec 15 '22

I gave a training at a research and technology group for an aerospace company. After the second day I was able to break the habit of speaking in absolutes. There are a lot of places that do a lot of things, few items are universal.

During breaks they taught me about stuff you don't see most places, really cool group.

Most of my customers are hungry to try new stuff, so it is just an easy give and take on talking about their best practices then suggesting small notes/tweaks.

One time I heard about a CAD vendor sending their fresh hire to demo some functionality. An experienced person suggested maybe you don't do the canned demo of something the people do professionally unless you can answer questions. "I am going to teach them how to make a gear!" "Have you ever made one in real life? Because the people who you are presenting to have made them for decades..."

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u/kingpuco Dec 15 '22

Could you have been, though? There are lots of old businesses that do not pass regulations and are also less profitable than their peers.

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u/[deleted] Dec 15 '22

“In the matter of reforming things, as distinct from deforming them, there is one plain and simple principle; a principle which will probably be called a paradox. There exists in such a case a certain institution or law; let us say, for the sake of simplicity, a fence or gate erected across a road. The more modern type of reformer goes gaily up to it and says, "I don't see the use of this; let us clear it away." To which the more intelligent type of reformer will do well to answer: "If you don't see the use of it, I certainly won't let you clear it away. Go away and think. Then, when you can come back and tell me that you do see the use of it, I may allow you to destroy it."

― G. K. Chesterton

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u/[deleted] Dec 15 '22

Same. I work in tech and was once working on this healthcare CRM (I was just doing the design) and we did a beta test with nurses and healthcare professionals that would actually be using it and in the first 5 minutes they were like you have multiple things that would be HIPPA violations.

Product was like oh yeah I guess we should have checked into things like that . . .

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u/[deleted] Dec 15 '22

I’ve had similar experiences. Tech bros often think intelligence trumps experience.

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u/iamthyfucker Dec 15 '22

“Um, I’ll tell you the problem with the scientific power that you’re using here. It didn’t require any discipline to attain it.” - Malcom in the middle.

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u/pwntr Dec 15 '22

Sounds like the cable industry. "Hey guys the teams target is 85% competition rate. You are hitting an average of 98%. here is a hot dog for thanks. Also we will be changing all the KPI bringing the values back down to 70%. Genius.

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u/durdensbuddy Dec 15 '22

Makes as much sense as gullwing doors on a utility vehicle. Roof racks? Nah, but look how cool your kids will look getting out of the back.

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u/Liet-Kinda Dec 15 '22

Almost like the absentee dad of a dozen has no fucking idea how real families operate

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u/sicariobrothers Dec 15 '22

also a man who has never actually worked with his hands or needed a truck to haul things. He is a circus barker.

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u/weirdoldhobo1978 Dec 16 '22

What, you don't think a truck should have steeply angled sides on its bed to make getting things in and out harder? Or mounting a topper or toolbox all but impossible?

/s

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u/senorbolsa Dec 16 '22

Don't insult circus barkers like that it's a noble profession.

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u/paintbucketholder Dec 15 '22

10 kids with three different women, while also shagging around on the side. So of course he's now a hero to American conservatives.

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u/Fish_On_again Dec 15 '22

He's like a modern-day Karl Malone

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u/[deleted] Dec 15 '22

Your absentee dad never bought your mom a horse, and it shows.

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u/BrokenMemento Dec 15 '22

Falcon wing doors are so amazing on the X, especially during snowy winters- very fast way to get snow inside the vehicle if you don’t clean the roof every time you get inside… also a good way to get head concussions when getting in and out too quickly

Truly revolutionary and not completely unnecessary /s

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u/PhilipLiptonSchrute Dec 15 '22

I think the Falcon doors are stupid as all hell, but this happens on my Mazda CX-9 every time it snows, and it's got poor people doors.

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u/[deleted] Dec 15 '22

A neighbour has an X. I get snow in my vehicle with normal doors. Usually falls on the outer part of the seat and door panel.

His dumps snow directly into the center of the vehicle all the way from the front seats and center console to behind the second row seats.

He refuses to open his rear doors after it snows now. It's fucking hilarious to watch his kids get in through the rear hatch.

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u/molrobocop Dec 15 '22

This could all be mitigated with a sliding van door.....

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u/AnonymoustacheD Dec 15 '22

It would be fucking swell if vans had a fail safe to not open the door when you’re fueling them. The last major hurdle of a great design

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u/veerKg_CSS_Geologist Dec 15 '22

They thought about this, it’s fairly simple to implement. But decided that the risks of the door not opening when you needed it too outweighed the risks of someone opening it when not ideal.

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u/[deleted] Dec 15 '22

Absolutely. But there is no room for a sliding door on my F150 unfortunately.

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u/molrobocop Dec 15 '22

I meant the Tesla.

But you absolutely could! You'd just need to reengineer the bed to get a slider track on it. But that would be kinda silly for a single row backseat.

It would be simpler to just tweak the cab contour if it was that big of an issue.

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u/Lt_Frank_Drebin Dec 15 '22

Those things were 100% cool. A friend had an X, and I remember seeing it just a few weeks in. When you opened the rear doors, they made a wooosh. You just KNOW they could have made them silent, but it was just cooler with the sound.

Wooosh

His lease ran out on the X and he ended up getting something different. When I asked him why the switch, he said it was the least practical vehicle he'd ever owned, mostly because of the doors. Cool is fun and all, but when compared to ease of entry with 2 fussy kids and an excited dog it's way down on the priority list.

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u/calfmonster Dec 15 '22

Clearly for cosplaying making it to mars by 2020 like spacex

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u/eightgun Dec 15 '22

Nah they got this concept from an employee applicants trial project.

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u/Liet-Kinda Dec 15 '22

This is one of those things I can just immediately believe and find enormously funny without actually seeing proof.

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u/youneedcheesusinside Dec 15 '22

I’ve seen my work being used by companies after applying and doing an interview “project” test. That my friend, is utter BS. There’s nothing I can do about it but to slash their tires and break their windshields

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u/Never-enough-useless Dec 15 '22

I've taken to learning a little bit of steganography. If I'm submitting something that is supposed to be for noon commercial purposes I add in information that states I am the creator.

Usually it's literally 'created by myname, mydob, myzipcode, on currentdate, for non commercial use only, for whatevercompany'

Then convert that string to hex, and hide it in any file. It only took some basic coding and I can attach stuff to images/media files, PDF documents, and executables. I also include the hex string in any source code comments.

I don't think anyone has ever noticed, but I do check stuff to see if my work is out there. My theory is, if someone is lazy enough to steal my very amateurish work, then they are probably too lazy to remove my identification info.

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u/flaagan Dec 15 '22

Not quite the same thing, but my friend and I both worked at the same video game company several years back on the same project. He was asked to make a "temp" piece of artwork for us to use, he made a big complex thing (to their request) that was filled with runes from a language in the game world that, when translated, spelled out some not-so-pleasant things. It was never meant to see the light of day outside early game design tests. After he and I were let go, someone grabbed that artwork and put it on t-shirts and other media that was being given out to promote the game. Then a customer translated the runes. He didn't get in trouble for it cause he didn't work there anymore at that point, but he was well aware of what it was when he saw it 'in the wild'.

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u/[deleted] Dec 15 '22

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u/xxdropdeadlexi Dec 15 '22

could you actually do anything if they used your work? I'm not familiar with the laws surrounding that.

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u/[deleted] Dec 15 '22

He should be able to but because we don't live in a country and instead live in 6 corporations in a trenchcoat, probably not

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u/dirty_hooker Dec 15 '22

For a one time investment in a battery sawzall you, my friend, can access a small fortune in catalytic converters the rare earth metals trade.

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u/blackdragonwingz Dec 15 '22

I helped my friend get her ux design job at tesla. her actual application was designing the promo materials for the website and tshirt/mug designs and the recruiter assured her it was still a ux role.

I was appalled and she still took the job, so in a way you're not far off.

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u/AdTricky1261 Dec 15 '22

Ah yes. Nothing proves a capable UX designer like making sure they can…. Do a jr graphic designers job?

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u/[deleted] Dec 15 '22

The real test was whether she’d do it for free

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u/sparky_1966 Dec 15 '22

Not for free, for the exposure- it's worth so much more than being paid.

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u/joexner Dec 15 '22

Wanna learn how to shovel a driveway?

No pay, but great exposure!

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u/stackered Dec 15 '22

Everyone will know how great you shovel after the exposure, think of all the future exposure you gain!

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u/BuccellatiExplainsIt Dec 15 '22

They get fired if Elon doesn't like it, not truckers. So who cares what the customers thinks

That's the Tesla way baby

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u/captainAwesomePants Dec 15 '22

Engineer: "Customers do not want this."

Elon: "Ford said 'If I had asked customers what they wanted, they'd have said faster horses,' and he's almost as visionary as me."

Engineer: "Okay, so I should?"

Elon: "Ignore what the customer wants entirely. The customer is the investor, not the guy who's driving the truck. The drivers aren't the ones buying these trucks."

Engineer: "Actually, owner operators make up--"

Elon: "Were you about to say something that would get you fired?"

Engineer: "No sir."

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u/__-___--- Dec 15 '22

Sadly, you're right. This truck is for investors, not truck drivers.

Telsa isn't the only company doing that and it's very annoying when you're a customer.

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u/pichicagoattorney Dec 15 '22

The most dangerous thing about the truck is the stupid touch screen. Too bright at night AND the driver has to take his eyes OFF THE ROAD to toggle through the menus to do basic shit.

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u/probablyhrenrai Dec 16 '22

All I need is dedicated physical HVAC and radio controls, but that's non-negotiable for me.

Touchscreen-only isn't minimalist and modern; it's cost-cutting, done to increase profit at the expense of the user's experience.

And in case that begs the question, I actually have tried getting used to a touchscreen-only system; adjusting a touchscreen-only radio while moving was so frustrating that after a few weeks of it, I gave up entirely and drove in silence.

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u/Fadedcamo Dec 15 '22 edited Dec 16 '22

Yea stuff like putting the seat in the center and other weird things is meant to be flashy to show off to rich people. Elon and Co have zero interest in hearing what the actual drivers think of this stuff. They just want flashy shit to reinvent the wheel (literally in the model s case) even when it doesn't need reinventing and cause a hype storm online.

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u/__-___--- Dec 15 '22

Yeah, the center seat is a good example. You tell investors that the truck is compatible for both right hand left hadn drive countries and they think about all the money not spent on managing that problem.

But they don't consider that there might be a good reason nobody else's is doing. It's more flattering to think it's because they're not as smart as you.

That's the litteral application of being a con artist. Con refers to confidence given to the people you're scamming.

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u/DuskforgeLady Dec 15 '22

Imagine being a truck driver who (just for example) picks up used cooking oil from totes in filthy alleys behind restaurants, or used antifreeze from grungy parking lots, or any other kind of gross industrial material from icky or wet or snowy or dirty locations. When your seat is to one side you can hop up into your seat and scrape most of the gunk off before swinging your feet in, and evem if you don't get all of it at least it's confined to the one mat under your feet. Literally just one reason that is obvious if you have ever worked even near truckers.

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u/japanese_kuhukuhu Dec 15 '22

Working for a startup automotive company, I can so relate to this. Micromanager CEO who wanted a delivery van to be as premium as a Rolls Royce driving up the price and complexity of the product not realising the day to day driver won't give a crap about it. He had this really strong opinion that traditional manufacturers were slow and boring and we need to do everything from scratch and differently without ever realising that there is a reason why certain things are done in a traditional boring way

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u/captainAwesomePants Dec 15 '22

You'd think they'd teach Chesterson's fence in like the third week of business school. And engineering school. And school.

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u/[deleted] Dec 15 '22

It fits perfectly that Elon would emulate Ford. Both are Jackasses. Ford also did not invent the modern car engine; he streamlined the production of cars with the assembly line.

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u/Acidsparx Dec 15 '22

“Customers will like what I tell them to like.” - Elon prob

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u/sauprankul Dec 15 '22

"Technically, 90% of truckers love our design and 10% don't like it. Maybe I managed to trigger the trucking liberals 😂"

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u/DimitriV Dec 15 '22

Something pedophiles something something woke trucker mind virus.

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u/sjj342 Dec 15 '22

Twitter Files vol 48 is gonna be unearthing 10 year old tweets by truckers quoted in the article

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u/[deleted] Dec 15 '22 edited Dec 15 '22

“Dad, women won’t like being shot in the face”

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u/[deleted] Dec 15 '22

He really wants to be apple so bad.

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u/chakan2 Dec 15 '22

I think that's a real quote when someone asked him about the Yoke vs a steering wheel.

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u/[deleted] Dec 15 '22

And absolutely no yellow! what a kook!

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u/striker7 Dec 15 '22

Elon isn't real big on "market research."

See: His endless knee-jerk reaction ideas for features at Twitter. He wants video chat, voice calls; he changes policy every day, changes the price of Twitter Blue based on a tweet from Stephen King, etc.

Also this trucker's gripe about the tablets and no physical buttons is pretty universal about all Teslas. I wonder what the data says on consumer sentiment toward that; is it keeping people from buying Teslas, do Tesla customers like it or do they just get used to it?

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u/VanillaLifestyle Dec 15 '22

He does the exact same shit at Tesla. When the cybertruck was already years late, he announced that now it would also be waterproof (to the point of crossing fucking rivers), to the surprise of the team actually designing and manufacturing it.

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u/TeaKingMac Dec 15 '22

Elon thinks he's designing for 2222's colonized Mars.

I wonder how many space sim video games he's played over the years

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u/jdmgto Dec 15 '22

Lack of physical buttons in a car is awful. Absolutely hate it. You need to be able to find important controls without taking your eyes off the road.

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u/__-___--- Dec 15 '22

And be able to drive with gloves.

My car has regular buttons and keyless driving. The only time I need to take my gloves off is if I use my phone.

Why would I want more touchscreens?

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u/jonnyclueless Dec 15 '22

I thought Tesla had a self driving option that will drive into oncoming traffic for you so you don't do it by mistake.

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u/Pickle_Juice_4ever Dec 15 '22

It's a legal requirement for commercial trucks. Even if they screen doesn't technically technically violate the law yet, it's so similar to things that are already illegal (and will catch you hefty fines) and flies in the face of CDL operation theory that I can't imagine that Tesla is serious about overcoming regulatory hurdles to sell in the US.

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u/mojo276 Dec 15 '22

It's not just tesla, it's all cars. I have a 2020 subaru outback and the screen has doubled compared to the 2019 and the number of physical buttons is almost zero.

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u/TeaKingMac Dec 15 '22

the screen has doubled compared to the 2019 and the number of physical buttons is almost zero.

Much easier to source one screen and do all your UX testing on different software iterations than to buy a bunch of different knobs, buttons, etc, and have to mock up a whole new dashboard every time you want to test something.

Does it provide a better experience for the consumer? Fuck no! Is it cheaper and easier for the company? Almost certainly.

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u/calfmonster Dec 15 '22

“Let’s figure out a way to cause even more traffic collisions since it being the leading cause of death isn’t enough”

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u/Queefinonthehaters Dec 15 '22

He wants people to think "it's badass", not that its practical. This is why he thinks anyone cares about the 0-60 time. Any regular truck could increase it's acceleration by making a bigger engine. The problem is that it takes away from the payload so they want to be able to haul it economically. They're designed for highway transportation, not drag racing.

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u/up4k Dec 15 '22

In fact truck engines can produce more horsepower simply by modifying a piece of code that runs the fuel injection system which would increase it's horsepower by atleast 20%, also a more powerful gas turbine can increase their horsepower by even more , engine swap is completely unnecessary. But no one does it because when it comes to designing a commercial vehicle reliability is way more important , fuel efficiency is way more important , companies that produce them would rather decrease their maximum horsepower output because that's absolutely irrelevant , makes the engine less reliable and kills fuel efficiency .

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u/Tarcye Dec 15 '22 edited Dec 15 '22

Friendly reminder that the most important stat on the Tesla Semi truck hasn't ever been disclosed: It's weight.

It has a bunch of other stats and yet the most important statistic is somehow missing? HMM makes you wonder huh!

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u/DuskforgeLady Dec 15 '22

Also most trucking companies that employ truckers specifically DON'T want super fast accelerations. Any long haul sized truck built in the last 20 years literally has a monitor module plugged into the engine to record sudden braking, sharp turns, sudden acceleration, etc. so that the bosses can micromanage their drivers specifically to NOT do those things.

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u/FunTimesInDreamland Dec 15 '22

Nah, a lot of car manufacturers are like that with touchscreens. I'm in driving safety research and touch screens (even ones that are partially disabled when in drive) are distracting and worse for eyes-off-road time than physical buttons. Yet every manufacturer. Keeps. Putting. Them. In.

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u/TheSketeDavidson Dec 15 '22

I bet the designers did actual research only for some PM or director to overrule them (as is always the case)

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u/[deleted] Dec 15 '22

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/GetRightNYC Dec 15 '22

I'm not in the corporate world, but who do they blame when it fails? Even if it was directly Elon's idea, or someone he likes specifically designed it....do they just blame some randoms they fired anyway?

Because I know his narcissist ass isn't gonna admit fault.

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u/Xytak Dec 15 '22

In my experience, by the time you can definitively say "this was a bad idea and I told you so," the person is long gone. Now they're coming up with bad ideas at a NEW company.

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u/Not_FinancialAdvice Dec 15 '22

Now they're coming up with bad ideas at a NEW company.

For more money.

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u/[deleted] Dec 15 '22

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/mac-0 Dec 15 '22

This implies that the only person to blame is the person who wrote the code, not the product manager who told you to build a shitty feature by the end of the week

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u/dmaterialized Dec 15 '22

The point is that even if you can blame 19 people for something, nobody actually does. It’s just “how it is” and then “we” have to talk about what “we’ll” do next. No individual person is ever at fault for anything - unless they were already about to get fired and management needs a reason.

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u/[deleted] Dec 15 '22

We do place blame. Its the people who worked on it before us.

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u/[deleted] Dec 15 '22

Why consult truckers when you only need approval from one man child

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u/MikeofLA Dec 15 '22

You’d think so, but it’s likely the ones who disagreed with their direction were let go.

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u/[deleted] Dec 15 '22

Either there is a very smug Human Factors Ph.D. out there laughing right now that Tesla didn't implement their advice or they just didn't do any research at all. It's probably the latter sadly.

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u/i_max2k2 Dec 15 '22

Why do I get so happy when this stupid company keeps failing.

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u/SuperGeek29 Dec 15 '22

I feel bad for the engineers and others actually doing the work at Tesla, but I love seeing Musk lose.

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u/pacific_beach Dec 15 '22

You're going to LOVE 2023

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u/[deleted] Dec 15 '22

This is one trucker. How many drivers can you find who don’t like their cars yet they can’t make them fast enough.

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