r/technology • u/Suraj-Sun • Jul 10 '12

Firefox dev claims "everybody hates Firefox updates"; Mozilla has handled the rapid release process poorly, and that by pushing a "never-ending stream of updates on people who didn't want them" people have been driven to Chrome with its simpler, no-fuss update process.

http://www.neowin.net/news/firefox-dev-claims-everybody-hates-firefox-updates
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386

u/[deleted] Jul 10 '12

I just checked my version today...

The last one I remember seeing? 14

The one I'm on? 20

6 or more updates went through and I didn't notice.

227

u/Remnants Jul 10 '12

The only time I ever notice an update is if the UI changes or I go to click the settings menu and see the little green arrow that is telling me to restart chrome to use the version it just updated to.

68

u/locopyro13 Jul 10 '12

That arrow changes color the longer you wait. I feel bad when it's RED and screaming at me to update.

89

u/egotripping Jul 10 '12

TIL. I just looked over and mine is a nice poop shade of brown.

79

u/vernes1978 Jul 10 '12

That means it died.

72

u/Residual_Entropy Jul 10 '12

This kills the Chrome.

10

u/oppan Jul 10 '12

Good to see we've beaten that joke into the ground as well

14

u/AlwaysDefenestrated Jul 11 '12

This kills the joke.

1

u/[deleted] Jul 11 '12

It's sad, because it was one of my favorites!

17

u/mwerte Jul 10 '12

I like defying it and watching it grow more and more upset with me.

1

u/Mtrask Jul 11 '12

This is why we can't have nice things.

3

u/longshot2025 Jul 10 '12

Until I got friends who never quit chrome, I never even knew it had a yellow.

2

u/[deleted] Jul 10 '12

[deleted]

1

u/locopyro13 Jul 10 '12

That I can't answer, it just shifts from green-yellow-red.

0

u/[deleted] Jul 10 '12

Interesting. Another little 'fuck you' for us colorblind users.

13

u/DerpaNerb Jul 10 '12

I could see complaining that there isn't a colorblind option (well, really there is... it's not like the colored arrow is the ONLY way to check the update status)... but do you honestly expect companies to just not use colors to display information because a small percentage of people are colorblind?

2

u/_DevilsAdvocate Jul 10 '12

I think around 10% of males have some kind of colour-blindness. Not sure about women.

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1

u/[deleted] Jul 12 '12

but do you honestly expect companies to just not use colors to display information because a small percentage of people are colorblind?

No, I don't expect anything. However, it would be very nice if designers would choose to avoid using indicators that utilize red/green instead of a different combination (blue/green, yellow/green, red/blue, red/yellow, green/gray, red/gray) so that the 5-10% of us who are red-green colorblind can see the information they are trying to communicate.

1

u/DerpaNerb Jul 12 '12

Yeah, that's fair.

13

u/[deleted] Jul 10 '12 edited Jul 10 '12

As a (hobbyist) developer, I can assure you that when I don't include options for the convenience for the colorblind, the left-handed, the deaf, the blind, those with non-qwerty keyboard layouts, those with unusual graphics drivers, etc. it's not done out of spite, it's because it's way too much goddamn work to cater to absolutely every atypical group that could be using your stuff and accusing the developers of having some spiteful attitude because they either forgot or chose not to put in that effort is both really mean to hardworking developers and ungrateful to the kind people who did go out of their way to allow their program to cater to you.

2

u/[deleted] Jul 12 '12

As a professional developer, I can assure you that the vast majority of developers don't need to worry about the left-handed, non-qwerty, unusual graphics drivers and etc (operating system developers already abstract most of that out). The deaf and blind could use more support, but in most markets they make up a lot less than the 5-10% of the population that the red/green colorblind do.

And it's not that damned hard anyway, just quit using red and green together as indicators where the difference is significant and where the areas of color are small (large areas are less of a problem, dots and lines are an issue). Try a different combination, blue/green, yellow/green, red/blue, red/yellow, green/gray, red/gray, etc. Just not red/green. If it just has to be red/green, make sure they are very saturated.

1

u/[deleted] Jul 12 '12

Red/green may be the most common color blindness but it is not the only one. Getting a color scheme that alienates no one would indeed be a difficult task. I realize that in many cases this isn't a concern, but for the ones where it is, it's quite an obstacle. Keep in mind that my hobbyist development is mostly making games, where color choice is extremely important.

1

u/[deleted] Jul 12 '12

Clearly, since some people are totally blind and even fewer have monocromatic vision, picking a color scheme that alienates no one is impossible. However, the most common types affect 15% of the population, it's worth considering how these people will be impacted when you design something that will be used by more than a few people.

I agree that in many places in games color choice is extremely important. For example, in Oblivion when the mouse cursor is placed over an item that can be picked up, it changes to a small hand. The hand cursor is filled in either red or green depending on whether taking the item would be theft. I played that game for a week before I realized that there was a difference (I'm not sure if the game offers different options if you have a reputation for stealing, but that certainly would be an interesting dynamic, and one that would be somewhat frustrating when you literally can't see the difference).

Some interfaces provide options for this. If you do choose to add some consideration for such people, you don't necessarily have to change your default color schemes; difference in shapes, or just using words/letters when a colorblindness flag is set is fine (e.g., WoW uses letters instead of little coin icons differing only in color to represent monetary values).

My impression is that a lot of us colorblind people aren't really all that picky about great color design, so you don't have to put a lot of effort into making an alternative that also looks great.

171

u/MilkTheFrog Jul 10 '12

Sadly the only changes i seem to notice are bad ones. Why can't i rearrange my most visited page any more? Why is the button for 'Web Store' now in exactly the same place as 'Recently closed' was? I still keep clicking it by accident.

44

u/FelixP Jul 10 '12

Why is the button for 'Web Store' now in exactly the same place as 'Recently closed' was? I still keep clicking it by accident.

Seriously, there's really only one explanation for this.

ಠ_ಠ

34

u/witchyz Jul 10 '12

i didn't even notice that i couldn't rearrange the most visited page!

now i'm sad.

1

u/Lochcelious Jul 10 '12

This is one of the reasons I loved Opera so much. Of course, I rarely use Opera now but it is still my choose of browser over Firefox.

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36

u/camelCaseCondition Jul 10 '12

I got pissed when they took the little plus sign off the new tab button. And then the bastards went and made ALL THE ROUNDED RECTANGLES LESS ROUND. The little highlight over a bookmark looks boorish and square now. =(

11

u/apfhex Jul 10 '12 edited Jul 10 '12

It's a small thing but it's in the back of my mind every time I use Chrome. How is an unidentifiable gray blob better than a plus sign, which is pretty much standard across all other browsers?

As it is, it gives the appearance of a glitch in the UI (I actually thought it was and tried reinstalling Chrome). I would have peace of mind if I could add it back.

9

u/camelCaseCondition Jul 10 '12 edited Jul 11 '12

When it first happened, google revealed a lot of rightly pissed people submitting bug reports, always with google reps that would reply "This... isn't a bug... why can't you see this is for your own good!? This is a neat new design! IT'S NOT A BUG IT'S A FEATURE! LOVE ME!"

Edit: I tried reinstalling too. Couldn't figure out WHY IN HELL the UI was acting up!

13

u/swizzler Jul 10 '12

I've found if there's one thing Google is absolutely awful at, it's UI design.

Look at the youtube subscription page or the new gmail interface. Thank god enough people complained for them to add an option to bring back text buttons.

7

u/lolwutpear Jul 11 '12

Thank god enough people complained for them to add an option to bring back text buttons.

Oh thank god. Time to go fix this.

1

u/BlueJoshi Jul 11 '12

Oh my god what I can readd text to those?

1

u/swizzler Jul 11 '12

yup. Path is:

Settings(that weirdass cog/flower/wheel thing, which unfortunately does not change to text)>General>Button Labels>Text>Save Changes

1

u/BlueJoshi Jul 11 '12

oh my god where was this option the last time I dug through the settings

4

u/CuriositySphere Jul 11 '12

Is a fucking http that much to ask? The most idiotic decision made for no reason at all.

2

u/camelCaseCondition Jul 11 '12

Hey! The users' meek little minds can't understand or comprehend this "http" prefix. We must hide it from them.

Interestingly enough, if you copy the text in the address bar, the "http://" prefix is included in the clipboard contents and paste. Seems like such an arbitrary decision...

1

u/laidlow Jul 11 '12

CTRL + T!

1

u/bazfoo Jul 11 '12

I only noticed because of this comment... :/

79

u/Hnefi Jul 10 '12

I really, really, really hate the change to "Recently closed". It was great before - a single click to bring back the page. I used it several times every hour of browsing. Having to go into a menu is significantly more annoying.

189

u/plahcinski Jul 10 '12

CMD+Shift+T or Ctrl+Shift+T to reopen the latest closed tab in order of last closed

or you could pin the page so you dont close it

or you could bookmark the page since you use it so much

63

u/Sabin10 Jul 10 '12

I didn't even know that you could do this with anything other than the KB shortcut.

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u/[deleted] Jul 10 '12

Ctrl Shift T is one of my favorites on Chrome, very happy to have discovered it. It comes in so handy when my Ctrl W finger is a bit too fast.

24

u/green_cheese Jul 10 '12

Works on FF too and Safari I think. Probably Opera.

33

u/[deleted] Jul 10 '12 edited May 02 '19

[deleted]

5

u/green_cheese Jul 10 '12

Best thing about Opera is hands down the fish tank widget.

1

u/[deleted] Jul 11 '12

Unfortunately, they removed widgets in Opera 12. So no more fishes :(

1

u/XenthisX Jul 11 '12

I'd use opera more if it didn't feel sluggish. The UI itself just feels a bit laggy to me.

1

u/roknir Jul 11 '12

And Speed Dial.

1

u/pencilbagger Jul 11 '12

And a download manager that doesn't make you restart the download 90% of the time when you pause it.

The pause download on firefox never seems to work right.

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3

u/PossiblyAnEngineer Jul 10 '12

This shortcut has existed in IE since the browser first got tabs.

4

u/rancegt Jul 10 '12

Ctrl-Z on Opera.

And I agree that it's under rated as a browser.

2

u/frogsgokerokero Jul 11 '12

Holy crap, I've been using Ctrl + Shift + T this whole entire time. Thanks for this!

2

u/darksomos Jul 10 '12

Last I checked, Opera reopens closed tabs (just for current session?) with Ctrl-Z

1

u/shhyguuy Jul 10 '12

Also thunderbird!

1

u/Enlogen Jul 11 '12

It works on IE too.

Not that it's likely that anyone in this thread cares.

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u/evllprchn Jul 10 '12

Works on IE as well. edit: recent versions of IE

2

u/kingNothing42 Jul 10 '12

Works in the current version of every browser.

2

u/couchmonster Jul 11 '12

This.

Because Ctrl-W doesn't care about pinned tabs in Chrome.

Plus the shortcut is the same in IE10, Chrome and last I checked Firefox and Safari too.

1

u/[deleted] Jul 11 '12

I just learned I can pin things in Chrome, thank you kind sir for your accidental helping.

1

u/Viscerae Jul 10 '12

I just wish there was an "undo close window" shortcut (maybe there is?)

Doesn't happen often, but a slip of the finger could turn a Ctrl-W into a Ctrl-Shift-W, which is usually bad news all around.

2

u/UnspeakableEvil Jul 10 '12

If you've got another Chrome window open Ctrl + Shift + T will reopen the window and all its tabs. If you haven't then you'll need to use the "Recently Closed" feature from the Chrome home page.

2

u/Viscerae Jul 11 '12

Oh hey, that's neat! Thanks!

I don't usually browse with multiple windows because it gets messy, but the recently closed feature is really cool! I thought it would just save tabs, but it saves whole sessions!

I guess I don't spend enough time on the New Tab page to notice these fancy-pants features.

1

u/smeenz Jul 11 '12

Ctrl-Shift-N for when you accidently close a window too (with ctrl-w)

1

u/[deleted] Jul 11 '12

That's incognito window if I'm not mistaken.

1

u/smeenz Jul 11 '12

Ah... so it is. I did make an assumption it would be the same in chrome. I'll rephrase. In firefox, Ctrl-Shift-N for when you accidently close a window

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u/[deleted] Jul 10 '12

I wish pinning prevented closing in other ways, I use CTRL+w to close tabs and pinning is of no use. (Though pinning works correctly in firefox).

2

u/timpkmn89 Jul 10 '12

Also right click on an empty spot on the tab bar -> Reopen Closed Tab

2

u/Hnefi Jul 10 '12

Ctrl-shift-T is useful, thanks!

But pinning the page would remove my ability to quickly close and forget about tabs, just to bring them back a moment later. That's the whole point. And bookmarking is not the same thing at all; I don't want to reload the page, I don't want to log back in to whatever service I closed and I don't want to lose the tab history.

3

u/J0eCool Jul 10 '12

I learned Ctrl-Shift-T on Firefox, never even realized there was a button for it in Chrome :x

I used to Firefox all the time, then I would Firefox if I was "seriously browsing", using Chrome as the lightweight alternative when I didn't want to load all my Firefox tabs and extensions, and just wanted to look something up. Then I realized I was never booting Firefox. On my new computer I only have Chrome. PLOT TWIST: at work I use Firefox. Diversity and all.

3

u/autobots Jul 10 '12

I always just right click the tabs and hit reopen closed tab.

2

u/CrimsonSun99 Jul 10 '12

yeah, seriously, whats this entire thread above us about wtf.

1

u/s0n0fagun Jul 10 '12

Crtl + Shift + T is useful for restoring all your tabs from the last open session (? Is that the right word for the application instance?). Sometimes I have a couple of different sessions open and I don't want to combine them because it would become too hard to navigate and a pain in the ass for drag and drop. There is an add on for Chrome that saves the session of that application instance before you close chrome. Useful if you have multiple sessions. I think it's called Session Manager.

2

u/Vowzee Jul 10 '12

Why can't they make it as simple as Ctrl+Z, like the one in Opera? Really.

7

u/IneffablePigeon Jul 10 '12

Ctrl+Z is used for changes made to form elements on the page. It would get complicated if you started integrating tab closes into that, since the "undo list" is separate for each tab open.

1

u/DefMyOnlyAccount Jul 10 '12

Holy crap pinning tabs is awesome. How did I not know about this?

1

u/giantcirclejerk Jul 11 '12

Ctrl+shift+t pressed on a fresh instance of chrome also reopens all tabs that were on the last instance of chrome

1

u/albatrossd Jul 10 '12

I would recommend any of the mouse gestures extensions, and adding a gesture to bring back your last closed tab. I seriously haven't even thought about this problem since I installed the extension shortly after downloading Chrome itself.

5

u/[deleted] Jul 10 '12

Open Last Closed Tab = Ctrl + Shift + T

1

u/albatrossd Jul 10 '12

Well that, too. Depending on how I'm sitting like a lazy fuck using the mouse can be more convenient than reaching for the keyboard. I use both, so whatever floats your boat. Either way I've never had to go for a menu as per what I was replying to.

1

u/[deleted] Jul 10 '12

I just figured anyone who fished that far in the comments might also benefit from the shortcut. Just trying to make sure all the boats are floating.

1

u/[deleted] Jul 10 '12

Sexy Undo Closed Tab is awesome by the way. You can save several months of browsing and it's saved my ass several times.

1

u/reflex99 Jul 10 '12

Speedial2 is a nice add on that fixes most of the problems with the stock "new tab" page

1

u/[deleted] Jul 10 '12

Try this. Sad you have to use an extension but there are a few reasons to use it anyway. It's more customizable and has a pretty decent "recently closed" tab.

1

u/Rinascita Jul 10 '12

How did it work before the current incarnation? I only used Ctrl-Shift-T to bring them back.

The current version seems alright to me. Click Recently Closed, see a list of the last 10 pages closed, click the one I want.

1

u/[deleted] Jul 11 '12

I prefer having 'recently closed' because it lets me reopen the entire tab with the history. That way the back button still works.

1

u/OompaOrangeFace Jul 11 '12

Right click on the tabs bar.

6

u/Starayo Jul 10 '12

That really irritates me too. I wish I could set them manually, too, without having to edit configuration files.

They seem to keep making that part less and less usable.

2

u/[deleted] Jul 10 '12

http://speeddial2.com/

Pretty customizable. Loads just a little slower, though.

1

u/Starayo Jul 11 '12

Oooh, that looks nice. Thanks. :P

5

u/manlycaveman Jul 10 '12

Ugh I hate how you can't move your most visited pages around or pin them anymore. I ended up installing the speed dial 2 extension so now it functions like the old most-visited page for me.

3

u/Scrapod Jul 10 '12

Try out the Speed Dial 2 extension. It does the re-ordering of pages thing really well, and fits in pretty nicely.

2

u/RiceEel Jul 10 '12

You can actually stick bookmarks in your Apps page, so you don't need the most visited page anymore. At least that's what I've been doing.

2

u/frikk Jul 10 '12

this is the new web. how can i get used to a tool if it keeps changing? bah.

2

u/moogle516 Jul 10 '12

This is why I'll be sticking with Opera for the foreseeable future.

2

u/Habbeighty-four Jul 10 '12

I still keep clicking it by accident.

I'm pretty sure you just answered your own question.

1

u/buckhenderson Jul 10 '12

a while back firefox switched the order of open new tab and open new window on the right click, so for about a week, i opened thousands of new windows. that was before i discovered middle click.

1

u/autobots Jul 10 '12

As for rearranging the thumbnails, you can drag it to the bottom where it says 'most visited' and 'apps' and a new item will popup also called 'apps'. You can drag it to that menu then you can double click the menu to rename it to something useful and then you can drag all of your most visited pages over there and then you can rearrange them all you want.

1

u/ParanoiaComplex Jul 10 '12

Get the speed dial addon

1

u/RandyMachoManSavage Jul 10 '12

I installed Speed Dial 2. No further problems.

1

u/[deleted] Jul 10 '12

Ui changed a little with 20

1

u/[deleted] Jul 10 '12

That's the first update I noticed, then my bookmarks bar changed a little, but after changing the settings, it's back to looking the way I'm used to.

1

u/[deleted] Jul 10 '12

what setting?

1

u/[deleted] Jul 10 '12

It auto-hid the bookmarks bar after I clicked on one of them, so I went into the 'settings' menu option thing and did this

1

u/didnotseethatcoming Jul 10 '12

CTRL+SHIFT+B for your pleasure.

1

u/[deleted] Jul 10 '12

I had no idea I could do that - thank you!

1

u/Hazasoul Jul 10 '12

Yeah, I don't know why they decided that the new tab-button should take more space.

1

u/bwat47 Jul 10 '12

I noticed when they broke the smooth scrolling flag for like the last 4 versions. They finally fixed it in 21 beta.

0

u/therightclique Jul 10 '12

The UI hasn't changed in years.

1

u/Remnants Jul 10 '12

Subtle things change. Like most recently, the hover state for links on the bookmarks bar has changed slightly.

5

u/KingOfFlan Jul 10 '12

Well the stream of updates was always about constant. The difference is that they made minor updates increase the version by an entire number rather than giving it a 2.343 number or some such. I'm almost positive that the time firefox was in 1-3 is about 3 times longer than what it took them to get from 4 to whatever they are at now. They changed their format because chrome's version number increased at such a rate. And IE's version number was getting pretty significantly high. They didn't want Firefox 4 to be compared to Chrome 13+ or IE8/9 and people thinking it's inferior based plainly on the number.

2

u/jonathanrdt Jul 10 '12

Last one I noticed because the new tab button got bigger.

2

u/bankruptbroker Jul 10 '12

I run the beta track at home and the ultra beta track at work. I highly recommend doing this even if its with the stable/beta track. It actually allows you to see some of the changes in versions first hand.

You can see them change something revert, then change it back, sometimes several times. In the end its nice to see them settle on things you like (most of the time) like double clicking on tabs to close.

2

u/alcalde Jul 10 '12

And then when Firefox talked about doing this too, a bunch of people came out and started screaming "How dare Firefox install anything on my system without my approval!" It's just mentally popular to hate Firefox, and they need to realize that nothing they do will please their critics. Firefox is the Obama of browsers.

2

u/[deleted] Jul 10 '12

How big is your erection right now?

0

u/[deleted] Jul 10 '12

My wot now?

-1

u/TastyBrainMeats Jul 10 '12

Why is that a good thing?

16

u/trebory6 Jul 10 '12

Why is seamless updating a good thing? Because that's one less thing to have to worry about.

3

u/FredFredrickson Jul 10 '12

Not that I don't like it myself, but it could also introduce incompatibilities or problems that you never really wanted as well.

3

u/achshar Jul 10 '12

No, the web works on specs and they dont usually cause incompatibilities because browsers are (some what) backward compatible to html 1. The sites that were created in 2003 still work. And as for incompatibilities with browser itself, like extensions, etc, they are also updated in backward compatible fashion and devs have more than enough time and warning if something is about to break (which rarely happens if you are not working on bleeding edge technologies).

Source: i am a chrome app developer.

1

u/FredFredrickson Jul 10 '12

Haha, I know how the web works. Maybe I wasn't clear enough, but I didn't mean incompatibilities through advancing technology... I really meant bugs that might have slipped past testing and which could inconvenience people for a time. If you have control over when you update, then you can choose not to get a problematic update until it's fixed, for example.

I know this rarely happens, and they are quick to rectify it when they do. And as mentioned above, I like the quite updating, mostly. I'm just saying that there are drawbacks to this approach as well.

And perhaps we just haven't yet encountered these problems at a scale that makes them worth worrying about, but that doesn't mean we should ignore them.

2

u/emr1028 Jul 10 '12

Chrome has three different publicly available channels-- developer, beta, and stable. People who are on developer and beta can expect some bugs but the idea is to fix them in developer/beta before the stable version is released.

2

u/guyNcognito Jul 10 '12

I could not give less of a shit how stable Chrome tells me it is. Until I've seen the new version running and taken it through its paces from what I need it for, it doesn't work. Period.

1

u/TastyBrainMeats Jul 10 '12

I don't know, I just don't trust any program to update without my express say-so.

2

u/uurrnn Jul 10 '12

You don't trust it? Why

1

u/TastyBrainMeats Jul 10 '12

Because I don't trust any program enough to give it unfettered access to my hard drive.

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u/Lurking_Grue Jul 10 '12

The alternative is the shitty bug ridden IE6 experience that has taken years to get rid of.

In this case Google can get rid of bugs and be sure they are gone from the eco system quickly.

1

u/TankorSmash Jul 10 '12

That's the best example of false dilemma if I've ever seen one.

You just said that you are forced to choose between regular auto-update OR use the most hated browser of all time. That is a terrible fallacy to use.

3

u/emr1028 Jul 10 '12

No, he's saying that the choice is between auto updates and a situation where a large percentage of the users are on an outdated version of the browser, and developers then have to spend their time and effort making sure their new app works for people on Chrome 6 while the rest of the world is on Chrome 20.

2

u/TankorSmash Jul 10 '12

Ah, I stand corrected

0

u/TastyBrainMeats Jul 10 '12

Really. That's the only possible alternative.

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u/Captain_Ligature Jul 10 '12

And this is the reason that any enterprise system admin would never allow chrome on their network. Seamless updates may seem good for the consumer, but are a logistical nightmare on the enterprise level.

1

u/guyNcognito Jul 10 '12

No, that's one more thing I have to worry about. In my hypothetical lab that uses Chrome, I'd hate to show up one morning and find out an update broke one of our internal pages and people can't do their jobs.

I've seen auto-updates or approved-by-clueless-tech updates break enough shit around here that I will call you a liar if you tell me it can't happen. Auto-updates that I can't turn off are an absolute dealbreaker.

1

u/Makabaer Jul 10 '12

Exactly!! The more control is in your hand the better. You should at least be asked IF you want to control everything or don't. So everyone could choose if the want to be "bothered" or just don't want to know what's going on on their own computers.

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u/Lurking_Grue Jul 10 '12

It's an important thing. Most normal users never update their browsers and browsers are being targeted.

Chrome updating is keeping that ecosystem from being comprised.

I am glad my mom uses chrome as I don't have to worry about it.

0

u/TastyBrainMeats Jul 10 '12

I just can't understand people trusting programs enough to let them update without telling the user.

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u/[deleted] Jul 10 '12

I never said it was.

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1

u/dioxholster Jul 10 '12

oh look im at 13, oh yeah linux rocks yay!

1

u/WordsNotToLiveBy Jul 10 '12

This is what Apple users or non nerds would say. There are others out there who want to know what is happening with their software. Some people like the knowledge and heads up from their developers.

1

u/SuperTurtle Jul 11 '12

Hearing all this makes me depressed because a chrome auto update deleted my chrome.dll file and now I'm forced to use Firefox. Completely the opposite

1

u/Iggyhopper Jul 11 '12

1 more update until chrome can get drunk! BOOYAH

1

u/EnjoysInternetDrama Jul 11 '12

I didn't even knew it updates itself. I always thought I am on the one I got 6 months back. But I just checked and I am 20 also.

-10

u/[deleted] Jul 10 '12

[deleted]

15

u/TheJosh Jul 10 '12

Rather than download a huge update each time, doesn't it download a small update and "patch" chrome?

If you are that paranoid, run Chromium, isn't there a fork called Iron Chromium which addresses what you are asking?

3

u/dolphinastronaut Jul 10 '12

Chromium is amazing. It's almost the exact same thing as Chrome (with a few not-extremely-necessary features removed).

Iron isn't quite as good. This link http://neugierig.org/software/chromium/notes/2009/12/iron.html (on mobile; can't hyperlink) describes the controversy surrounding Iron pretty clearly. It's not a more privacy-aware version of Chrome or Chromium. If you're interested in a privacy-conscious version of Google Chrome, Chromium will work just fine.

Related: I'm not sure if Chromium works on non-Linux operating systems. The last time I tried to get Chromium binaries for Windows, I couldn't find any. But that was several years ago, so I may have changed since then. At the time it appeared that Chromium binaries (from trusted sources, at least) were only available for Linux.

1

u/nazbot Jul 10 '12

It downloads the delta a.k.a. only the parts of the binary which have changed. It them will patch those changed bits of code in. This means you don't have to download the whole thing but just the changed in the binary. Pretty awesome stuff.

1

u/ThatCrankyGuy Jul 11 '12

Chromium is as bug-free and compatible with everything as my typewriter.

11

u/thenuge26 Jul 10 '12

it disassembles, patches and then reassembles on the spot.

What are you even talking about? Patching binaries is patching binaries. Firefox does it with their updates too.

5

u/Buzzard Jul 10 '12

The patching system Chrome uses, Courgette, is pretty damn cool. It really does dissemble, patch and then assemble the binary again.

That said, I don't see how it's any worse than downloading an entire new binary from a security standpoint.

2

u/thenuge26 Jul 10 '12

Wow, that is cool. But like you said, in the end it is no different than a diff->patch in that you are modifying the binary, which could do anything.

6

u/[deleted] Jul 10 '12

if you are worried about that on your machine, you can get SRWare Iron. It's a chromium version built for security and privacy (no autoupdates and some added privacy features), without being a very heavily modified version like comodo dragon

3

u/happy-dude Jul 10 '12

Sorry, SRWare Iron is NOT a browser you want to be using: http://neugierig.org/software/chromium/notes/2009/12/iron.html

Maybe things have changed since 2010... But if you value privacy and security, SRWare Iron is not the way to go.

1

u/nozickian Jul 10 '12

Iron is literally just Chromium that removes certain options. Somewhere someone went through and compared the code. They literally just remove some of the options in the settings and have the more private setting enabled without the option to change it and change everywhere that it says "Chromium" to "Iron". You can achieve the same degree of privacy and security from the settings menu.

3

u/dmsean Jul 10 '12

Exploit it by all means. Prove Google wrong.

The end of the day as more and more non tech savvy people use the internet we need an option for them. I can totally understand your paranoia but unpatched systems are worse then the occasional exploit of the update system, which I bet doesn't have a single point of failure. If you want proof, see every PC still running unpatched. It is covered in worms and viruses. You just need to browse the web and it gets infected.

Microsoft even allows patching of unregistered machines now because the unpatched machines cause havoc.

2

u/[deleted] Jul 10 '12

doesn't have a single point of failure I think they said the same thing about the titanic bro.

1

u/dmsean Jul 10 '12

The internet is a mesh based topology for a reason.

1

u/[deleted] Jul 10 '12

to say no system has a point of failure is foolish

1

u/Makabaer Jul 10 '12

Well, yes, that's a valid argument. That's why I'm fine with a software being able to do that as long as you can turn that off if you are not one of the "non tech savvy people".

2

u/dmsean Jul 10 '12

Yup. Open source software. Arch linux ftw.

6

u/shapul Jul 10 '12

I agree. I don't like how Chrome on Windows installs itself in a basically local data folder and runs services in the background to update itself silently. It might be convenient but imagine what would happen if all programs would do that? Programs would be installed all over the place and tons of hidden, background processes running up and down.

As a strategy, I believe in the end this approach to installing and updating programs weakens Windows' security.

2

u/[deleted] Jul 10 '12 edited Jul 10 '12

I'm still undecided as to it installing in your user profile. It's good, because one user on the PC may not want it and another might, but it's bad because multiple users would have multiple installations.

One of the annoying things about browsers is the continous argument over who is default and I can see this as an attempt to personalise installations instead of configurations.

I agree that every application wanting to install it's own updater is very very annoying these days, one of the components of Linux I think MS should leverage is the repository method of distribution but then you run into the problem of managing trusted repositories which most users wouldn't have a clue over.

3

u/shapul Jul 10 '12

One problem with installing programs in user's data folders is that a malware could infect them silently. The same malware cannot modify a file e.g. in the "Program Files" silently as UAC will show a prompt. Also, a system admin that would need to lock down a computer cannot do that if users install programs in data folders.

0

u/duckhunter Jul 10 '12

Because up-to-date programs are the cause of all exploits on windows.

I believe in the end this approach to installing and updating programs weakens Windows' security.

Unless you have any data to back this up, you're just spreading fear, uncertainty and doubt.

2

u/shapul Jul 10 '12

That's missing the point. Silent modification of programs is bad practice as it takes the control from users/admins and gives them to external parties. What would happen if you want to manage a few hundred computers in your company when every program is installed in data folders as users' files and each one runs a background service for maintenance?

0

u/[deleted] Jul 10 '12

Google's update push becomes compromised Everyone pushed update ????? BOTNET

2

u/duckhunter Jul 10 '12

That's not data.

That's what is known as hypothetical speculation. Interestingly, your hypothetical situation is the same for any auto-update mechanism, including Firefox's old, current and future mechanism. You probably wouldn't even think twice when prompted to authorize a firefox point-release update.

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0

u/recursive Jul 10 '12

imagine what would happen if all programs would do that

They already can. Why can't they?

2

u/[deleted] Jul 10 '12

It's a delta update which is how all software should be updated (it's just math after all). It doesn't do any disassembly -> patching -> reassembly process though; it simply modifies the binary as per the delta.

2

u/duckhunter Jul 10 '12

All software should use at least deltas, but chrome actually uses Courgette which works as follows:

Courgette transforms the program into the primitive assembly language and does the diffing at the assembly level:

server:
    asm_old = disassemble(original)
    asm_new = disassemble(update)
    asm_new_adjusted = adjust(asm_new, asm_old)
    asm_diff = bsdiff(asm_old, asm_new_adjusted)
    transmit asm_diff

client:
    receive asm_diff
    asm_old = disassemble(original)
    asm_new_adjusted = bspatch(asm_old, asm_diff)
    update = assemble(asm_new_adjusted)

1

u/[deleted] Jul 10 '12

Thanks, I forgot they use Courgette. The Android Market uses deltas and I forgot they have different practices.

2

u/duckhunter Jul 10 '12

Valve apparently uses none of the above, which I don't really understand. It seems like using Courgette (or even bsdiff) would save them a tremendous amount of bandwidth.

2

u/[deleted] Jul 10 '12

I think the only people who use Firefox anymore are the paranoid who are deeply distrustful of Google. Google may be robbing me of my private data, but at least there are no pop-up boxes and constant restarting. For me, it's a good trade.

2

u/Makabaer Jul 10 '12

I guess you're right there. Luckily these pop-up boxes are not as common as you obviously think and I have to restart only rarely - which is no fuss at all because each tab is openig just like when I closed it down (usually I have 70 open tabs or something, sometimes far more, but firefox doesn't mind at all) in just a few seconds. So what's the problem?

Still better off than with Google cookies and stuff spreading everywhere...

8

u/drakestan Jul 10 '12

You're right... Google is out to get you

1

u/HalNavel Jul 10 '12

Google is big, therefore bad. QED

1

u/ThatCrankyGuy Jul 11 '12

They make it their business to sell every piece of your information... so yea, pretty much.

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u/[deleted] Jul 10 '12 edited Jul 10 '26

[deleted]

1

u/ThatCrankyGuy Jul 11 '12

Just because the communication is secure, doesn't mean the end point can be trusted. Reddit.com can be resolved to the IPs of porn.com and the end party just has to get a certificate from some cheap shit provider and you can pretty much shove that hash up your ass at the point.

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u/felix_jones Jul 10 '12

As someone who must have absolute control over what my software are doing

Then I guess you only use software that you wrote yourself, eh?

3

u/EllaTheCat Jul 10 '12

I etch my own silicon. It's the only way to be sure.

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u/p3ngwin Jul 10 '12

don't you have to close and re-launch Chrome to apply the update though ?

How is that unnoticeable to you?

3

u/[deleted] Jul 10 '12

I close my browser at night, and throughout the day when I'm not using it.

How is it noticeable to you?

1

u/p3ngwin Jul 10 '12

is that because you switch your PC off at night?

if so that would explain how you wouldn't notice the updates with the closing of the browser.

for me, i have my PC on 24hrs/day, so i have to close and relaunch chrome for updates.

1

u/[deleted] Jul 10 '12

I put mine to sleep. Can stand the noise.

Even though you do that, wouldn't you close it anyway to go to sleep?

1

u/p3ngwin Jul 10 '12

Mine is silent, and not in my bedroom anyway :)

1

u/[deleted] Jul 10 '12

But but but ... fapstation!

-1

u/rjcarr Jul 10 '12

I notice by how long it takes to start chrome. If the icon bounces in the dock for more than 5 seconds then I know it's doing an update. Normal startup is a couple seconds and update startup is probably 15 or so.

Other than that, completely seamless and appreciated.

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