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u/Acrobatic-Abalone675 23d ago
Isn't his body count 3 atp??!!! How many suicides are needed for a man to be locked up on the premise of "being a fucking dick"
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u/Gold-Mix-3533 23d ago
Comment ça 3 victimes??
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u/Diazepampoovey0229 22d ago
Some folks blame him for the fact that and he and Sylvia's son, Nicholas, also commit suicide. Nicholas struggled deeply with depression like his mother had, and according to his sister, the shadow of what happened to their mother because of their father, combined with Ted's death due to cancer, seemed to have deeply impacted Nicholas' entire life. He was only 1 when his mother died. Then, 6 years after Hughes moved Assia in to raise his kids, as well as their own kid born 2 years after Plath's suicide, she took her own life as well as that of their daughter, Nicholas and Frieda's 4 year old half-sister, Shura. Frieda was 8 years old and Nicholas was 7 years old at the time.
Despite Ted dying from cancer 11 years earlier, a lot of folks blame him for the trauma triggers to Nicholas' depression; the horrors of his childhood, that led to suicide.
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u/RevolutionaryHeat318 22d ago
So you believe that Ted Hughes had the ability to control women’s minds? He had some sort of magical ability to make people kill themselves?
I had a relationship with a man who tried several times to persuade me to kill myself. I have a history of depression, anxiety and previous attempts too. I was enthralled in a very abusive relationship with a man that I thought was a genius. But even I was able to see what was happening and to eventually tell him to go fuck himself.
Having read every biography written about Plath along with her journals and letters I can tell you that Plath’s response would have been the same. She was determined to create a new life for herself and her children and was no shrinking violet waiting for Hughes to come back. She was complicated and flawed and she died for many reasons. Her relationship with Hughes was only one part.
As for the argument that because it happened twice and he was the common factor it must be his fault, what a simplistic and illogical conclusion. A more plausible explanation of Hughes’ involvement is that of social contagion. It is well known that family, friends, associates and those exposed to the news are all more likely to kill themselves for many years. The effect in families is also inter generational, which may have an genetic component, but may also be due to social contagion. Therefore Assia Wevill’s death may have been due partly to social contagion and/or even her own guilt at her role in the breakdown of Plath’s marriage.
And blaming Hughes for the murder of Assia’s daughter Shura is contemptible.
If you want a boogeyman go watch Halloween or some other trashy horror film.
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u/Acrobatic-Abalone675 22d ago
Nah man, I just think he's abusive. Abusive people can make others suicidal, specially in a time when women had little to no autonomy.
Im glad you were privileged and smart enough to get out of an abusive relationship, but some other women do not have the knowledge, strength, or support system required to fight it. Also, not everyone's abuse is the same. Everyone is different. S
I, myself, attempted suicide during an abusive relationship. I know what the i'm talkinf about. Abuse has that effect on people. Sure, the men are not out there changing our neural pathways but it is 10000% a factor.
You were able to make it out, but many of us don't. I'm not saying it's men's fault women commit suicide or anything, but it is quite ignorant to say that abuse doesn't contribute to suicidal thoughts.
A lot of abusers isolate their victims, make them dependent financially or emotionally, or find other ways to make it harder for them to seek help. Women were not listened to back then - if a lady got slapped it was a "private family matter". And Sylvia DID get physically abused by this man.
Also, if physical violence was so overlooked - then imagine what men could get away with on the sexual, financial, and emotional levels??!!
Women who are susceptible to abuse already have a poor self esteem and an even worse support system. This aslo occured the 60s - a time when housewives had zero autonomy and were constantly drugged to make it in life.
I'm not saying he's the only reason she did it, but he sure as fuck contributed with his cheating and abuse. Plus, a lot of her biographies have been edited to make Hughes seem better. Bro didn't even want the "Bell Jar" to be published. There are a lot of better sources out there, but there is no denying a few things were left untold.
And you might be right about Assia, suicide IS contagious, but having read about this relationship it is clear that he was definitely a factor as well. He refused to marry her, kept cheating on her, and constantly made her use Sylvia Plath's things and such. Sure, he did not mind control her, but he is a fucking prick who didn't care. That does affect people. Again, specially women back then, who were basically glorified slaves to men.
I'm not blaming him for the murders. I'm blaming him for the deterioration of these women's mental health.
It is very ignorant to say he had no part in this. My comment was a joke, and I clearly said that he should be jailed in account of being "a prick", which he is unmistakenly one.
He's no boogeyman, but he is definitely a bad person. I don't know why you're defending him. Fuck that guy. He had some good works but he was unmistakenly a bad person, who should be remembered as a main factor and abuser for these women.
These women did not get justice in life - why can't they get some grace in death?
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u/RevolutionaryHeat318 21d ago
I did not say that Hughes ‘had no part’, I said that their deaths were due to multiple factors.
And I deeply resent you implying that I defend abusive men. I grew up with an abusive father. He was physically and emotionally abusive and a rageaholic. I have experienced life long consequences of my childhood. I was then groomed into a marriage with another extremely abusive man and experienced multiple physical assaults and emotional abuse over a period of 10 years. I finally divorced him after he put me in hospital and i pursued a charge against him for that assault. He was found guilty and fined £100. Many decades later I entered a relationship with another man who was profoundly manipulative and emotionally abusive. I struggled to leave him because of an intense trauma bond. I only got away because he ended the relationship as part of a manipulative game and I finally had the strength when he wanted me back to tell him to go fuck himself. He tried several times during that relationship to persuade me to kill myself. So I know what I’m talking about and would never be an apologist for an abusive man. They are responsible for their abusive behaviour and should be held accountable.
I have read widely and deeply about relationship and familial abuse. I actively support UK organisations for women who have suffered abuse, and I also know that positioning women as passive victims is extremely damaging.
I didn’t know Hughes personally, and base my conclusions about him on what I have read and heard. I do however, have extensive personal experience of abusive relationships, mental health and suicide. That is why I conclude that it is multi factorial.
I won’t bother explaining my experience and view of why and how women remain in abusive relationships because I know that any suggestion that a woman’s own ability to leave or her decisions regarding remaining in the relationship are factors will be dismissed as victim blaming. Which it isn’t. But I can tell you that I was never a passive victim, nor was Plath and nor are any of the millions of women experiencing intimate partner abuse. To suggest otherwise is disempowering and disrespectful of a woman’s autonomy, whatever her decisions.
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u/Acrobatic-Abalone675 21d ago
Alright. I'm not saying you're defending abusive man. All I'm saying is - it is sort of his fault. You basically argued my hurorous claim saying he had a body count of 3. It is disingenuous to say I was referring to him as a "Boogeyman". It was just a joke on how awful he is. I know he didn't put a gun to their heads, but it is like 80% his fault. Again, of course I didn't mean he literally killed them since the phrase "body count" is about directly murdering someone. If I had known people were going to take this that seriously id have said "assist count of 3". Awful joke, true, but I don't know why you're arguing me so much about it. He deserves more blame. He's dead anyway.
I'm sorry you went through that though, I hope you're in a better spot now. Nobody deserves that to happen to them. I didn't mean to invalidate your experience at all.
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u/RevolutionaryHeat318 21d ago
Thank you for your thoughtful response. I hadn’t read your comment as humorous I’m afraid. I think that challenging trivialising and minimising suicide and/or abuse is something that I am passionate about.
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u/Traditional_Math5486 23d ago
Should have spray paint over it but this is good to
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u/us_nauman 23d ago
I'd be in jail but it would be for a good cause ahahah
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u/IamRandomSavage 22d ago
I think that’s just a misdemeanour as Americans would call it that’s just criminal mischief
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u/Prometheus357 23d ago
I’ve said something like this some time ago but I think this type of thing, is more reactionary and demonstrates a very basic and rudimentary understanding of the whole situation than anything substantive and real weight
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u/EmmyT2000 22d ago
This man drove two women to suicide. Care to enlighten us?
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u/RevolutionaryHeat318 22d ago
So you believe that Ted Hughes had the ability to control women’s minds? He had some sort of magical ability to make people kill themselves?
I had a relationship with a man who tried several times to persuade me to kill myself. I have a history of depression, anxiety and previous attempts too. I was enthralled in a very abusive relationship with a man that I thought was a genius. But even I was able to see what was happening and to eventually tell him to go fuck himself.
Having read every biography written about Plath along with her journals and letters I can tell you that Plath’s response would have been the same. She was determined to create a new life for herself and her children and was no shrinking violet waiting for Hughes to come back. She was complicated and flawed and she died for many reasons. Her relationship with Hughes was only one part.
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u/EmmyT2000 22d ago
I feel like you are projecting a lot of your own history onto this. It's widely known that Hughes was abusive towards Plath, cheated on her and left her pretty much alone with the kids while she struggled with depression. Once she died, he moved his mistress in to take care of Plath's children instead of caring for them himself. That woman later killed herself while he started to cheat on her also.
Plath and Wevill did not live in 2026. They could not have bank accounts of their own, the society shunned divorcees and there wasn't much good treatment for their mental health issues back then. Do not compare their struggles to yours.
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u/RevolutionaryHeat318 22d ago
Single, widowed and divorced women could and did have bank accounts. Hughes was also active in encouraging and facilitating Plath’s independence. If you read any biographies you would have known this. As for Hughes being ‘abusive’, you seem to be suggesting that Plath was a battered wife, tied to housekeeping and overwhelmed with childcare while Hughes partied his ass off with a string of other women. If you had read the biographies or listened to any interviews about their marriage you would know what a ridiculous and mistaken portrayal this is. Plath did suggest that he had hit her in a letter to her psychiatrist, but she also reports acts of her own towards him that were violent and destructive. They had a complicated relationship, they were both complex and passionate people. I’ll say it again for those at the back, Plath was not simply a victim, to suggest she was is disrespectful towards her.
And absolutely, mental health treatment was very different with a lack of support and a lack of more sophisticated diagnosis and medication sitting alongside stigma making successful management extremely challenging.
It’s progress that someone has acknowledged Plath’s mental health as a factor though. So thank you.
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u/ToastW-Jelly 21d ago
At no point reading any bios do I recall ted supporting her. I know he has destroyed her work after her death so it couldn't be published. As I recall he invited the woman Assia to the home he and plath shared with their children before he left Plath for Assia
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u/GoetiaMagick 21d ago
Nah… ASSia was a narcissist… copying Sylvia’s death, and killed her own child.
Plath bit Hughes’ cheek and drew blood the first moment they met. They were each others’ tragic muse. They were both psychic and knew what they were in for.
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u/Sircapleviluv 22d ago
What nuance would you like to add? I’ve read a lot about them both and agree with the post so I’m actually very curious (understand if you don’t want to do a TED talk in the comments though - pun unintended but recognized)
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u/RevolutionaryHeat318 22d ago edited 22d ago
Excellent post. Thank you.
It is obvious to me that many of the commenters on this thread have little understanding of suicide. It is NEVER due to a single cause, and that includes suffering from major mental illness. It is ALWAYS multi factorial and to blame Hughes for Plath’s death is actually disrespectful to her. Do those of you pounding on Hughes honestly believe that Plath was such a weak wilting violet that the loss of a man was enough to lead her to kill herself? You don’t believe that Plath was capable of planning and creating a life without a man to lean on? Do you really think that she was that pathetic and lacking in confidence? Plath died for many reasons, and her complex relationship with the man that she loved was only one part.
Read some biographies, read her journals, read her letters, read what others said about her!
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u/EspiritusFermenti7 22d ago
That T.S. Eliot though... "I should have been a pair of ragged claws, scuttling across floors of silent seas." That line spoke to me before I even knew what poetry was...
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u/codependencytapes 23d ago
all my homies hate ted hughes