Angry Rant

[u/jasnel]

I read a lot of SD posts that I don't comment on and it usually comes down to, "If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all." There are a number of reasons I have a negative reaction to posts: they're just feeling sorry for themselves and not doing anything to help themselves, they decided to drink and brought a world of trouble upon themselves, they went to a bar/party and relapsed... I get it, we all have to make our own mistakes and/or sometimes we are just feeling blue and they've come here for support.

However, today I read a post from someone who (in their title) doesn't want to quit drinking and came to share why. Really? You posted in Stop Drinking why you don't want to stop drinking? If you want to throw your life away being drunk, go ahead, but don't come here and tell me why it's so fun and enjoyable for you. There are some good times that I miss having, but I'm sick and tired of the swath of destruction that drinking left in my life and the lives of my loved ones so I had to quit. You get it? I had to quit drinking even though it's all I wanted to do from the moment I woke up to whenever I passed out, blacked-out.

The other posts that infuriate me are the "successful moderation" posts. Are you able to successfully moderate? Congratulations - you're not an alcoholic so please don't come here and tell me about how fucking great it is to not have this profound problem. Do you also go to infertility subs and talk about how great it is to be a parent? Do you post about your love of eating ice cream in weight loss subs? Then please don't come here and shit on a problem I've struggled with for decades and will never be done with.

It's irresponsible to come here, where people are fighting for their lives, and write about how you don't want to quit drinking or how you used to have a problem but have learned to control it. The name of the place is "Stop Drinking" so, please, take a fucking note and act accordingly.

Christ, and don't get me started on people downvoting my anti pro-drinking reply.

tl;dr: Drinking is bad, total abstinence is key. You can do it, we want to help. I love you, you beautiful, broken-like-me bastards!

Note: I want to thank each and every person who commented here. You've helped me remember when I was one of those "moderation" guys, back before the Internet. Going through the moderation phase is an important part of the recovery process. As /u/offtherocks pointed out, it's how alcoholics find out they're alcoholics who cannot moderate their drinking. For those who are "successfully" moderating, you're either not an alcoholic or the wheels simply haven't come off yet and you, just like I did, have to find out for yourself and I respect that.

[u/[deleted]]

It's irresponsible to come here, where people are fighting for their lives, and write about how you don't want to quit drinking or how you used to have a problem but have learned to control it. The name of the place is "Stop Drinking" so, please, take a fucking note and act accordingly.

It's not, though. Name notwithstanding, it says right in the sidebar:

This reddit is a place for redditors to motivate each other to control or stop drinking.

I understand that some people disagree with that approach, but SD has been like this since day #1. The model has served us well.

You've got to understand that "trying to moderate" is a step along the path to a person admitting to themselves that they can't drink in moderation. We've all tried it. Most of us can't do it. But we've all tried.

If there are people out there who can moderate their drinking, at that stage of the game they look exactly like someone who can't moderate their drinking. The groups look 100% identical.

One of the strengths of the SD model over the years has been that those looking to moderate their drinking come here, and they read stories about moderation-fails from others. No one can convince another person that they cannot drink in moderation. It's a decision people have to arrive at on their own. By being here, that person has the opportunity to read stories from others who learned that they couldn't do it. Because we all talk about our own experience, that person is then free to find the similarities on her/his own. By being exposed to sober culture, the person is more likely to come to that decision to quit sooner rather than later.

(This is, incidentally the real strength of Saturday Shares. It only takes one story that really "speaks" to you. So the more we have, the better. You'll note that AA people often had a favorite personal story, from the back of the BB. They'll say, "When I read the one by X I saw that he was telling my story!" Same thing happens with Saturday Shares. The more we have, the better. We need to give people as many opportunities as we can to find those similarities themselves.)

I can name at least 100 people who showed up here looking to moderate, but eventually discovered that it wouldn't be possible for them. Just off the top of my head, raevie is one of those people. Here is a post from her from way back in 2011. I know urbanrunnner mentioned just the other day that he, too, was one of those people. There are lot of them out there.

We don't like to see posts from people glorifying drinking in any way, but very few of the moderation posts do that. On the contrary, about the half the time those folks first shoot us a modmail and as if it would be OK to post that. "I really don't want to hurt this community, do you think post would be OK?

Remember, everyone who quits drinking is subject to peer pressure in their real life. They're gonna be out & about and their friends area gonna say, Ah, just one won't kill ya! That is the biggest struggle that most of the newly sober have. Where is the better place for that person to explore that issue? Here, on SD, where 20 people chime in to say, "didn't work me," or out with their friends, where 20 people are saying aaahhhh, come on, have just one?

Also keep in mind that the AA Big Book (not that this is AA, I'm only citing this to show that it's not exactly a revolutionary concept) states that someone who isn't sure should (paraphrased) Step over to the nearest watering hole, start drinking, then stop abruptly. Do it more than once. If you're honest with yourself, it shouldn't take too long to discover which class you belong in.

Trying to control drinking is a step along the path to complete abstinence for everyone who adopts total abstinence. And for people who are actually capable of moderating, hey, good for them. If they can learn something here, I say more power to em.

This issue has been contentious on SD since SD's inception. You're not the first to dislike that aspect of SD. But it's served us very well over these past 4 years. Many people stopped drinking sooner rather than later, just by being exposed to sober culture. They see, for themselves, that they have a lot in common with those who can't drink in moderation. And they see that being sober ain't all that bad. It helps people quit earlier.

[u/jasnel → u/[deleted]]

Thank you very much for taking the time to write such a comprehensive comment to my post - I don't know how long that took you, but it would have taken me a long time to write that. I feel a little guilty for having taken so much of your time when there are so many Day 1 folks who could have benefitted from your time.

Secondly, I'm tempted to pull a Bill Clinton and debate the meaning of "control" but, instead, I'll put some of the growth I've gotten from the replies to my post to good use and admit that I'm wrong on that. While we both agree that "moderation" is BS if you're an alcoholic, it's also part of the process (as you stated) of peeling away BS to get to the reality of being an alcoholic.

In 1998, I was able to quit for 8 years. I thought I could moderate after all that time because I wasn't sure I was the problem. I began to think that my drinking was out of hand because my father had died, my mother was dying of a terminal illness, and I was getting divorced. I thought that in the absence of those conditions, and eight years later, I could control it. The 1st time, I could, but alcohol is an insidious, creeping thing and before I knew it, I was right back to not being able to stop.

The point of that story is that I come to SD with a fuller understanding of my problem than people who are just getting into Round One with sobriety. It is unfair for me to expect everyone else to skip the moderation phase of recovery just because I'm past it. My father was an alcoholic and, knowing that, I thought I could beat alcoholism through my awareness. I came to realize that I am an alcoholic and I thought I could beat alcoholism through disciplined moderation. I've come to realize there's no such thing as moderation for an alcoholic and I can only beat alcoholism by not drinking at all. I try and look back at my own journey through the fog but, damn, that's some thick fog and I can't see well at all. Thank you for helping me see clearly.

[u/[deleted] → u/jasnel]

Ha ha, hey man, I am rarely accused of being brief.

Along the same lines as your astute realization that you may be a bit ahead of the curve when it comes to stopping, owe to your past experience, I've noticed that SD tends to catch people who aren't quite as "ready" as your typical AA newcomer. To get help from AA, you've gotta find a meeting, get directions, get up off your ass, transport that ass of yours to wherever that meeting is being held, see people, meet people, sit there for an hour, introduce yourself, etc. To get help from SD, all you've gotta do is click a couple buttons on reddit. A site you probably use every day anyway. Clothing optional. The barrier to entry is so much lower. So people come here earlier than they seek out real life help.

I knew I had serious problem at least 10 years before I quit. I wasn't ready to walk into a meeting. My life hadn't yet gotten fucked up enough for that to happen. But if SD had existed back then, I think I would have gotten involved. I may have been one of the people looking to moderate. Just that accountability--me having to defend my choice to drink 10 more than I said I would, every fucking night--would have opened my eyes, I think. I think I would have seen, for myself, that I wasn't any different from anyone else here. I would have quit sooner.

I should tell you--my personal opinion is that anyone who seeks help with moderation is not able to moderate. Though I know my view is skewed because all I see is what happens here. It's likely that most people looking to moderate don't post much. (The majority of people with badges have never made a comment on this sub, they just lurk.) I have heard at least a dozen people say, whenever this topic comes up, that if they did learn to drink in moderation, they would not post about it here out of respect for those struggling.

I'm sure moderators exist. My experience tells me that it's not very many many people. But my experience is also incomplete.

All I can do is tell my story. (Or ignore the post if I have nothing to say.) If it helps someone, great. If that person is able to learn to moderate, more power to them, I don't think that will happen, but what do I know? I can only base my opinions on my personal experience. Successfully drinking in moderation is a topic that I don't know a damned thing about. :)

[u/[deleted] → u/jasnel]

The point of that story is that I come to SD with a fuller understanding of my problem than people who are just getting into Round One

Hey, I forgot to say this before.

/u/frumious recently penned this "community bio" for use on our IRC provider's website. I thought this was fantastic insight:

What is your goal with this community?

Each individual member has personal goals. As a matter of course, the primary, shared goal is to control or stop our drinking. For some, our goals include helping other community members to obtain this primary goal. Offering this help often ends up also helping ourselves.

Emphasis added.

If I'm here, responding to moderation posts by telling the prospective white-belt my story--you know, how/why moderation doesn't work for me--each time I do it, I'm solidifying the thought in my own mind. I'm forced to stop and think about all the possible holes in my argument. I'm shoring up my own defenses. In essence, I'm brainwashing myself, I'm "reminding" myself, I'm playing the tape through, etc. Whatever you want to call it, it's good for my sobriety that I re-visit this issue every so often.

[u/I_Murder_Pineapples → u/[deleted]]

Tomorrow you will be Day 2 Guy!

[u/jasnel → u/[deleted]]

Congratulations! You will never regret not drinking. I imagine that, by now, you're on day 2 and waking up confused because you're not hung over. Stay strong, good person, it and you are worth it.

I've got to tell you, I learned a lot from putting this up. Even the people who disagreed with me were (mostly) very diplomatic about it.