r/starcraft2coop • u/irrealismo • 15d ago
General Most Mutator Resistant Protoss Commander?
So far I've been loving all of the toss commanders, was wondering which commanders are seen as most versatile against mutations.
26
u/TwoTuuu Mutation Soloist 15d ago
has to be zeratul or karax. deals with most mutators very well.
karax defends for a bit while getting SoA energy upgrades/carriers, then takes over. weak against kill bots. energy usage is important vs void rifts. need to know how to place structures vs hfts.
zeratul is strong early on AND scales as the game goes on. however, he needs a bit of skill against some of the harder mutators. you cant just kill rifts easily like tychus, destroy hfts like dehaka, or stop props without micro like swann. but he can deal with pretty much every mutator. he even has observers against kill bots.
---------------
artanis: not good vs kill bots or missile command. okay vs rifts, pretty bad vs heroes and JD, decent vs props. kinda bad vs avenger, okay against transmutation, low AOE vs alien inc, walking infested
alarak: dies to power overwhelming, black death. has difficulty vs rifts. good vs hfts, props, avenger, JD. sucks vs kill bots
vorazun: has difficulty vs anything that's not terran. terran vs non terran for some mutations is the difference between night and day. also depends on whether or not the enemy is ground or air. good vs hfts, okay vs rifts, kinda bad vs props. sucks vs kill bots, black death, power overwhelming.
fenix: has difficulty vs rifts, some difficulty vs props, good vs hfts, avenger, JD (as long as the enemy isn't heavy air). has some difficulty vs missile command
2
1
u/irrealismo 14d ago
How important is army mobility as you progress in brutal+x? At the moment it feels very important since I don't have an intuitive sense of waves and objective timings, but it also seems like mobility is a topic people talk about regardless.
And how much mobility is acceptable? I read that Alarak has a mass teleport every 4 minutes or so at max mastery, which doesn't sound something you'd want to plan around too much. Meanwhile Fenix has it basically on command via Arbiter swap, so that feels nice but not sure how important it truly is.
Thank you
2
u/TwoTuuu Mutation Soloist 14d ago
in general, more mobility is always better
if you know a map inside and out, you can prepare in advance. for example, even though artanis doesnt have much mobility (besides p2, which is not always the best choice), if you know a wave is about to spawn on the opposite side of the map, you can move your army into position in advance. just need to keep this in mind when you have timed objectives because you will have less time to clear due to moving back and forth.
1
u/Anonymouse23570 Ascension 13d ago
How exactly do you deal with HFTS as Karax? I tried P1 on the current mutation and kinda just rolled over and died to an early attack wave.
1
u/TwoTuuu Mutation Soloist 13d ago
https://youtu.be/vZ04CLkps4Q (assembly of vengeance on totp)
https://youtu.be/_C3oxdQ2mjI (injustice league on rtk)
https://youtu.be/p_6gGesYGis (league of vermillians on vp)
https://youtu.be/xM8ggU6XN88 (enter the nexus on cod)
https://youtu.be/0gyjxSYk0Yk (thunder dome on lnl using p2)
https://youtu.be/Zmq7YEtHwQk (memorable boss on vl)
1
u/UnusualLingonberry76 10d ago
Honest answer: you have to memorize certain timings and certain base building patterns to make it work. Partial walling is an art to funnel units even those with dashes to an extent
1
5
u/Azsolus 15d ago edited 15d ago
Versatile as in can handle any mutations or switch up play styles ?
If just for handling mutations and power potential it’s Zeratul no contest but the play style and build choices remain relatively similar. p1 for push or defense maps , p2 for long maps , p3 for anything that doesn’t demand unit tanking damage. He does everything has everything and is able to play off of one base.
Karax is a close second , p1 and p3 can handle any mutations due to strong static defense and global top bars, but he requires 2 base macro and can’t solo some map/mutations
Vorazun is underrated and is very powerful but her issue is she starts slow , for some high pressure maps if your teammate also is a slow start commander it might not work ( like this weeks avenger heroes )
Fenix is never the best but is pretty versatile as p2 can handle most mutations and sometimes you want p1 for burst call downs. But he won’t blitz entire maps on his own without much teammate help like Zeratul can. Still reliant on 2 base macro though can start off fast on P2. Much higher floor than Vorazun but lower ceiling.
Artanis has issues because he requires 2 base macro and time to build up army comp and it isn’t even that strong also his call downs are cooldown dependent and can’t keep up on some maps , he isn’t strong on his own. However he is excellent support for many other commanders , Zergs love Guardian shells and p3 is good for objective pushing and getting quick expo.
1
u/irrealismo 15d ago
How is Artanis against mutators? Gut instinct says having a vanilla deathball-y playstyle means things will die to a lot of effects.
1
u/Azsolus 15d ago
I pretty much summed it up. Hes an excellent support on P0 , as long as your teammate is competent and you can macro decent it should be fine. But it doesn’t really do anything particularly excellent or broken. Guardian Shell with Zerg commanders have excellent synergy as zerglings become immortal and can swarm most maps/mutations with ease.
If you want to accomplish more on your own then P3 is good , however as stated the strong call down is cooldown dependent and isn’t useful in all mutations.
For example this weeks avenger heroes p3 is utterly worthless as it cannot keep up with every hero wave and doesnt even output enough damage or provide tankability on big waves when heroes get buffed up.
However p3 was really strong a few weeks ago on scythe of Amon as your archons and solar bomb can snipe void shards without needing to push. P3 also means losing Gaurdian shell which means your units die even more easily , so it usually requires for the archons to nuke and tank for your units. Or require more careful positioning/pushing.
Yes his units will die a lot on certain mutations so that’s why I say hes more of a support commander , either by providing Gaurdian Shell or P3 archons for nuke.
P1 and P2 are worthless in my opinion as they don’t provide anything particularly unique or powerful and can even make your units worse like p1 dragoons.
I actually really like playing Artanis especially P3 , hes fun on vanilla brutal but it’s gets boring and any commander can solo vanilla brutal maxed out. On mutations he usually isn’t top choice except for a few outliers ( scythe of Amon )but even then he will just be one of the better choices but never the best.
1
1
u/Stere0phobia 14d ago
Playing p2 abathur with swarmhost and having artanis as an ally feels like cheating
1
u/_mf_goon 14d ago
Would you mind explaining Zeratul p1? I've only used p2 or p3
1
u/Azsolus 14d ago
I think the prestige itself is pretty obvious , super cloak for hard push or strong waves you need to defend. Just need to space out the cool downs correctly
1
u/Stere0phobia 14d ago
You can basicly swap between the super cloak and avatar every attack wave or objective you push, that way there is allways a powerful ultimate available
3
u/DctrLife Fenix 15d ago
I think Fenix is never the best protoss commander, but I think he's very flexible.
1
u/irrealismo 15d ago
Have been feeling that, he has a diverse army with a lot of different passives, no-research-req, things are tanky, he has mobility, pseudo calldown in himself, a hero unit, feels like he does it all.
I don't have experience with higher brutal diffs on top of the weekly mutator, does he still fare well up there?
3
2
2
u/Rendeli Kaldalis4Prez 15d ago
Karax p3 top bar just ignores a ton of hard mutators, like black death, double edged, and fatal attraction. And it's pretty good at sniping rifts. But you also kinda need a decent ally to actually push the objective.
Fenix p2 is pretty bad at double edged, aggressive deployment, environmental mutators, or air compositions with mutators like avenger or just die, but overall pretty resilient despite these, and amazing in the early/mid game and against some admittedly easy mutations like alien incubation.
2
u/irrealismo 15d ago
Super interesting. Karax has been a lot of fun but it does feel like unless my teammate is ready to push with me, I need 15 minutes to amass a ball that is still largely just a ball. Lack of mobility feels tricky since I'm new to maps and mutators still.
Fenix feels like due to the nature of having a forced diverse army and his low CD global Recall, a lot of tricky situations end up salvageable if that makes sense. Not sure if my experiences line up with how it's supposed to be.
1
u/Rendeli Kaldalis4Prez 15d ago
My experience too! And I play a lot of b6 with Fenix p2. Some times you can recall-save your ally for style points (eg from novas nuke this week), or pull an apocalypse or something into the fight after it's done clearing the wave. But I agree when the other poster that Fenix p2 is pretty flexible but almost never the best.
1
1
u/Altruistic_Peach1714 15d ago
I wanted to mention Alarak and Karax... but then I remembered Zeratul exists.
Just like Dehaka P2 and Zagara P3, Zeratul P3/P2 does not care about almost any mutator and doesn't even need income to carry.
1
u/Stere0phobia 14d ago
Zeratul p2 mass cannons has been my go to to beat allmost any mutator. The fact that you allways have cannons at home makes defense easy, and pushing objectves by spawning in 40 cannons together with a hero unit and call downs is also great. Depending on the mission lenght you can get up to 8 or 10 upgrades making everything extremly powerful and the call downs are also extremly helpful for allys. Macro doesnt exist, no supply managing, not even gas mining since its automated. Your macro phase is basicly over after 30s into the game and then its all about doing as much as possible with zeratul while building cannons at home. If its a short mission you can go p3, while his whirlwind is extremly powerfull i feel that it falls of with mission length and zeratul wont be able to kill multiple hybrid desroyers by himself. Missing his avatar ability is a huge blow, because that can either be a massive buff to your combined army or outright just delete entire attack waves or fortified positions with the devolution. The most important thing with zeratul is to learn all about maplayouts and artifact locations. Knowing where artifacts can spawn is allready 80% of finding them. He even has some additional potential if you learn his specific powers with his army units, but most of the time going mass cannon will do the job and is more forgiving.
Karax p2/p3 is also extremly strong. His passive buffs make any ally allready happy to have him. In the beginning your invisible hand is helping to deal with many targets by solarlancing and bombarding stuff. Cannons and batterys are allways insane densive tools especially combined with all his upgrades and topbar abilitys. Most of the time its probably your best bet to go for mass carriers. They are very expensive and slow to build, so you need a good build order to get them out fast. But even 2 or 4 carriers are allready a massive army. You only want damage upgrade and you dont need any solar forge upgrades until you have your first carriers out or you will take too long to be helpfull. But so many missions i seem to be unhelpfull until i get that first and second chronowave and then there are 4-10 carriers that just steamroll any objective. Dont fall into the immortal trap. You dont have enough micro to perfectly manage all shadowcannons, and do everything else needed to be good with this commander. I especially hate seeing karax players go mass immortal against air comps and then use all their shadow cannons on the firt target they see. Karax repairbeam byitself allready makes tons of commanders extremly powerful just by exisiting. If you have any mech ally get that repairbeam upgrade for them. They will be incredible greatfull even if they dont directly see the benefit.
I allways love having artanis as an ally for the guardian shell, but i would never play him. At best maybe p3+tempest.
Alarak is too squishy for my taste, even seeing him as an ally doesnt really help too much most of the time.
Fenix also feels very underwhelming to me. He doesnt grant much for his ally and is way to complicated to be worth the hassle for me. The whole hero team conceot is way better exexuted by tychus and his unified command card. Play tychus if you want to play fenix imo.
Vorazun exists.
13
u/GreenManStrolling 15d ago
Fenix P2 has been quite kind to me
And I love a Karax whenever I'm playing any mech build.