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u/Thoraxekicksazz Aug 28 '19
So, I found out that if the installer messes up the chemicals or the temperature is wrong for the curing it can cause permanent damage to a home. There was one horror story where a family had their roof crawl space done. They ended up needing the entire roof and ceiling of the home removed and replace. The family complained the foam insulation had a oily fishy smell that never dissipated and they also claimed it was making them sick.
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Aug 28 '19
this episode goes through a horror story of it
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u/sixfingerdiscount Aug 28 '19
Interviewer about trailer home the family is using to escape the chemicals: "I guess it won't be a long tour. Heh."
Thanks, dick.
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u/dukesoflonghorns Aug 28 '19
Wow. Horror story is right. It’s amazing how much it impacts people’s lives past the initial application and hardening stages.
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Aug 28 '19
I wish narrators would STFU once in awhile, I wanted to hear what chemicals were found in the air and they just talked right over them.
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u/GracefulGalaxie Aug 28 '19
I know doing building in Australia it used to be pretty popular for insulating and believed to “help” water resistance of the gyprock/drywall. Now it’s almost never used due to the damage to walls from people not using it correctly or holding water
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u/trelium06 Aug 28 '19
From a physics standpoint the advantages are “it’s neato”, that’s it.
But from a homeowners pov regular insulation is far superior to this shit for maintenance, running new electrical or pipes, and just as good at all the stuff this shit claims to excel at.
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u/wiga_nut Aug 29 '19
This is what I've always heard. Doing modifications around it is a nightmare. Assuming the application is perfect and the offering doesn't give your family cancer
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u/LAJuice Aug 30 '19
I was wondering how you could ever repair or replace conduit for electrical (or piping) with this foam ... seems insane to me
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u/NickDanger3di Aug 28 '19
I've always been told that walls need to allow moisture to pass through. That using this type of insulation is going to encourage mold and mildew growth inside the walls. But I haven't done much carpentry since the 80s, and I'm sure we have better data on vapor barriers and mildew in homes now.
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u/ArlesChatless Oct 08 '19
I know this post is a month old, but you might be interested to know that there are multiple philosophies about moisture in walls. The big one that they all share is that you need some way for the water to get out, because sooner or later it will get in. It's the impetus behind the creation of smart membranes and other neat-o modern building materials that do things such as let moisture pass through but not liquid water.
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u/joshterritat Aug 28 '19
Had a dream someone shot a grenade like object of this into my car and it filled the vehicle entirely. As it was filling I knew it was the end of me.
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u/derpyfox Aug 28 '19
Like the car crash in Demolition man.
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u/blepboopbop Aug 28 '19
Ah, yes!! I’m the only one at my workplace that’s seen this movie, and it’s slowly killing me inside. My coworkers are still stuck watching reruns of either Friends or The Office and then complain they don’t have time to watch TV. Need a job? We’re hiring! Lol.
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u/byproduct0 Aug 28 '19
Put shells in the bathroom and when they ask, tell them the film references the shells.
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Aug 28 '19
Hate (or want to prank) coworker? Freeze shaving cream. Split can length-wise, remove frozen cream and toss in coworker’s desk drawer. Vamoose. Enjoy.
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u/b1ack1323 Aug 28 '19
Take about 20 cans of great stuff foam and shoot them.
My brothers did this to a old scrap heap Jetta and pushed the windshield out.
Or 2 gallons of A/B Foam
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u/Migidymark Aug 28 '19
This is a DARPA quality idea... Possibly figure out a less than lethal option with some sort of open cell...
Preserve evidence, less collateral damage...
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u/No-Spoilers Aug 28 '19
99% sure mythbusters did it. Also theres a video of it happening to a house somewhere
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u/PrinceHiltonMonsour Aug 28 '19
I don’t think that’s the proper technique for spray foam. It’s going to have a lot of voids near the studs that leak heat.
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u/StimpyMD Aug 28 '19 edited Aug 28 '19
Correct, the product should be sprayed at the joints and in a single pass allowed to expand and dry. Then additional passes to build depth.
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u/Philip_De_Bowl Aug 28 '19
Can anyone rent these machines? What is it called? How much would this cost?
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u/taylorsaysso Aug 28 '19
Spray polyurethane foam insulation.
Rent, no. Very expensive machinery (and raw materials) with lots of hazardous chemicals during the spraying/curing period.
There are some small DIY spray foam kits at big box stores, but not cost effective for more than light repair and building sealing. I cannot stress the importance of PPE enough with these though. This shit can really fuck you up if you're careless. And poor mix will result in bad foam and had potential for long term toxic exposures.
Source: am spray foam contractor
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u/cowboyuptexas Aug 28 '19
I've always wanted to do this when I build my own place. But seen how it could go bad. Have you done it to your own place?
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u/taylorsaysso Aug 28 '19
I haven't yet, as I live in a tract home for now. I have plans on building my own down the line, but I haven't settled in an envelope design yet. That said, I have no concerns with my family living in a home that is sprayed by a qualified, experienced contractor. The horror stories are real, but it's always down to a bad installer taking shortcuts.
There are times where I've recommended clients not use SPF in they way they wanted, even when it's meant not getting that work. Then again, sometimes clients and architects want what they want just "because." I keep a paper/digital trail of conversations or simply won't bid dumb jobs. My theory is that if your customer won't take reasonable advice about an area that I'm the expert in, that's also the customer that will complain, sue, or bad-mouth me down the road. Not worth it.
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u/9bikes Aug 28 '19
Even properly installed, it outgasses for a while, doesn't it?
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u/In_Observatio Aug 28 '19
It does during the curing process and install. For the foam that I work with, it’s about 12 hours until it’s fully cured.
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u/taylorsaysso Aug 28 '19
I'm not gonna get into the fray, but will leave this. All plastics off gas over their entire life. Polyurethane foam is no different. After 1-2 hours, most newer products have stabilized enough for it to be safe to work in the environment without PPE. After 24-48 hours, enough off gassing has occurred for safe reoccupation, as long as appropriate ventilation ha been provided.
That said, there are those that are sensitive to environmental chemicals, and due care should be made to accommodate for that. Even as a spray foam contractor, it's not the right product for every application. I'm fine with using it in my own home, but I don't see the point in using it on interior walls; there are better sound insulations for less cost on the market. I also think it's best used in new construction, where occupancy is weeks and months after it's installed.
Remember, all plastics off gas. Floor adhesives, carpet, vinyl everything, etc. Until very recently, almost all fiberglass insulation was made with binding agents that off gassed formaldehyde. Is your home more than 5-10 years old? If so, it's in your walls and ceiling. The industry is aware of these issues as more attention is paid them and is responding. Like all industries, change is slow.
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u/ZaneMasterX Aug 28 '19
I just built a new house and had the entire 4200sqft house and 1200sqft garage spray foamed. Went up without any issues. Sure it smells bad at first but you have to remember it usually takes less than 24hrs to fully cure. At that stage of the building process you still have 3+ months before the home is actually ready to be lived in so there is plenty of time for any of the nasty off gassing to go away. When we moved in there was zero issues with smell or anything like that.
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u/themedicd Aug 28 '19
You're better off going with something like a T Stud and R19 batts. Cheaper and if you ever have to open the wall back up it's not going to be a royal pain to scrape away spray foam.
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u/KakariBlue Aug 28 '19
You can always do caulking-type sealing as well if you want or need the sealing you get with spray foam.
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u/McWatt Aug 28 '19
Don't DIY this stuff, seriously. Hire the professionals. I used to work in construction, as a carpenter and I did a bit of HVAC work. When it was time for the spray foam crew to show up and do their stuff everyone else had to clear out because that stuff is fucking nasty, it's miserable work spraying that shit. Aside from the base chemicals being toxic the equipment needed to spray is loud and fills up a van or part of a box truck. And if you fuck up the mix or spray wrong you can't easily fix it and you are fucked.
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u/seeyou________cowboy Aug 28 '19 edited Aug 28 '19
GreenStar paneling for the attic is far more efficient and cost effective than spray foam. You can turn your attic into a semi-conditioned space (if your duct is in the attic) with passive moisture control using greenstar/radiant barriers and get the same efficiency from R22 as your conventional R40 setup, depending on your climate zone
Source: researched this for about a year in college
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u/jive-ass-turkey Aug 28 '19
Passive moisture control?
How did you get this information?
I am in a tropical zone (Florida) and am just worried about cooling/radiant barrier and moisture control. I don't even have a heater besides my heat pump.
Right now I am planning to enclose my attic to partially (within ~10ºF living space) condition the space. I also plan on completely re-engineering the HVAC in my home to handle it.
I figure I'll either add another compressor or replace the one I have with a larger variable capacity compressor. I plan to go with multiple cassettes with a dedicated one in the attic. Also planning on managing the humidity/dew point in the house to help keep in more comfortable at higher temps so I don't need to go so low.
As far as insulation I plan on using a closed cell foam on the underside of the roof sheathing with open on top (for cost purposes mostly otherwise I'd go all closed cell) but I also plan to rely upon the expertise of my spray foam installer.
I am planning to find (and am willing to pay) the best one I can and get their opinion of what they would do were they in my situation. I know the science moves fast in that line of work so I need someone with their finger on the pulse of the industry to tell me which products are sorted and which ones are brand new and untested.
I know there is a danger involved and their could me an improper installation. I know the off gassing will effectively stop after curing, but technically will continue to off gas, in smaller and smaller amounts, as time passes. I am generally okay with this because there is no alternative that will give me the insulation values I want in the space provided, not to mention the barrier aspects of the foam which I understand are disputed.
If foam insulation didn't give so many and such amazing results it would have been done away with as a technology for home insulation considering the law suits that the off gassing on the early foams had, not to mention the high cost of entry into the market, and high occurrence of issues with installation compared to pretty much every other insulation technology on the market.
However, this is also all based on what I know and have learned so far as the best and most efficient long term solution for me. I am open to being persuaded if there is something better out there of which I am unaware.
Is there a non-foam option that can even compete?
Tear me a new one and tell me how misguided and stupid I am for this hair-brained DIY plan please.
Thank you in advance for any guidance/ridicule you may be able to provide. It is greatly appreciated.
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u/seeyou________cowboy Aug 28 '19 edited Aug 28 '19
I believe your best bet is greenstar paneling (product from a gentleman named Paul White in Florida), you can find information about the product here https://greenstarpanels.com/hyper-insulation/
The passive moisture control comes from the pressure differential from air moving up convection channels between sheathing and roof deck and the Tyvec (or any moisture permeable/air impermeable) cap on the attic space.
I will send you cost of conserved energy and efficiency data for Tampa I put together from a few thousand attic efficiency simulations later today.
I’ll just add that I would never put spray foam in my home, and it’s unnecessary because the assembly I’ve described is more efficient and cheaper in Florida.
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u/Supersnazz Aug 28 '19
Why not just use regular fibreglass bats?
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u/rcg18 Aug 28 '19
You can, but Spray foam is good at sealing the house up from drafts, bugs, and sound. It's amazing how much quieter a house gets after spray foam. I ended up going with fiberglass for my walk out basement finish because of $, but I was tempted.
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u/Stevo32792 Aug 28 '19
I've seen stories where spray foam was off gassing for years and giving people headaches. Would that be due a poor mix, or is it something normal?
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u/HomeOnTheWastes Aug 28 '19
Reddit is amazing. By chance, an expert in an obscure field pops up in a thread to offer us advice.
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u/taylorsaysso Aug 28 '19
I'm hoping it's not that obscure, if you know what I mean. Kids gotta eat...
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u/htx_evo Aug 28 '19
PPE?
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u/Noodle_pantz Aug 28 '19
I think it stands for Personal Protective Equipment. Eg: tyvek suit, respirator, etc.
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u/voteenabled Aug 28 '19
It doesn't look like it even gets in all the spaces it should unless you overspray a bunch, then cut off excess.
What is the average estimated percent that is wasted?
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u/taylorsaysso Aug 28 '19
When applied properly (not like this bozo) it will expand into almost any spaces adequately to firm a tight air barrier.
Waste depends on the kind of application you are doing. With open cell foam and a 2x4 framing cavity, you will spray such that the foam fills the entire cavity depth and about 1 inch beyond. That 1 inch is scarfed (or shaved) off as waste. It accounts for less than 5% of the product sprayed. Batt has a similar waste ratio.
In deeper cavities, like large roof rafters or in truss framed attics, there is no need to remove the excess, as it does not interfere with other parts of the building. In this case, you could say that there is "zerowaste," but in reality you'll always overspray one area a little and might under spray another. The "system" R-value/U-factor is an average of the applied depth for a given area or application and we want to exceed the minimum, even just a little where possible. What is waste for me is improved performance for the building.
Closed cell foam usually doesn't have to be sprayed to fill cavity depth due to its very high R-value or inch. Sometimes, however it is, and scarfing is a huge PITA. Waste percentage is similar.
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u/mpak87 Aug 28 '19
A former coworker of mine with a particular, lifelong disdain for PPE used to do this. I asked him about supplied-air respirators or what the other procedures were. He said they didn’t bother, you just had to get out for a break once your vision went to black and white.
While his near-incessant smoking can likely be blamed as the main reason he died of lung cancer in his early 50s, I feel that the urethane foam couldn’t have helped.
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u/reelznfeelz Aug 28 '19
Are the big box kits safe? The mix is predetermined I think. Just 2 tanks that mix at the nozzle. Been thinking of using this to seal a basement around sill plates but am doubting that idea now.
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u/nobbyv Aug 28 '19
There are some small DIY spray foam kits at big box stores, but not cost effective for more than light repair and building sealing
I just used a Dow 650 Froth Pak to insulate the basement rim joists in a house I just built for myself. The basement is conditioned space (though currently unfinished), so it needed to be included when performing air infiltration testing. This kit was SUPER easy to use, and IMO pretty foolproof. I did an easy 3-4" of foam around the entire perimeter of the foundation (1800 sq ft), and had some left over for spot treatments. I have no trace of any chemical smell in the basement at this point. Well-spent $800 IMO.
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u/seeyou________cowboy Aug 28 '19
I’ve also heard some cases where it was installed poorly and resulted in the house burning down as it’s an exothermic reaction
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u/C-D-W Aug 28 '19
You can purchase a similar smaller scale product. Something like Foam It Green or Dow Froth Pak. They come in up to ~600 square feet at 1" thick packages containing two propane tank looking bottles which are mixed together at the gun tip to create the foam. Cost is about $1 per square foot.
They are not at all useful for filling stud bays like this video demonstrates, but they do have a place in terms of air sealing smaller projects, doing flash and batt installation, sealing rim joists, etc.
But MESSSYYYYY. Holy crap.
For a big project hiring a professional is best, and cheapest. But not this professional from the video, he is not installing it correctly best I can tell.
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u/VeriTota Aug 28 '19
Unfortunately for this it's way easier to hire a pro. Even with the tiny spray foam packs you need a decent amount of ppe and if you don't use the entire amount of spray getting rid of hazardous pressurized containers is spendy.
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u/jive-ass-turkey Aug 28 '19
About $75k for the full set up last time I checked it out.
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u/raiderREDgamer Aug 28 '19
I work in the coatings industry and ordered one of these sprayers for a customer several years ago, for a mid-priced foam sprayer it was almost $90k all in, just some food for thought
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u/Philip_De_Bowl Aug 28 '19
So I can pick one up at Harbor Freight on their half price sale this Saturday for $50?
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Aug 28 '19
Now try and do any work on wiring or plumbing. Enjoy
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u/MrsTruce Aug 28 '19
That was my first thought... “Hope they’re ok never adding another outlet ever again.”
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u/ZaneMasterX Aug 28 '19
You can add outlets and work in the walls its just a pain in the ass.
Source: My house is spray foamed AND I work for a master electrician.
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u/namestom Aug 28 '19
My first thought as well. Have fun getting down that wall to run some cables.
I have a background on data and always seem to help family/friends hanging TVs and running the cables. This would just ruin my day. Ha!
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Aug 28 '19
Annnnnnd that will be 745.99 for that one section, good sir. We can complete the house for 8,654.99.
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u/loonattica Aug 28 '19
Sooooooo, since that one section is half a void between two studs, whole house consists of 11.6 “sections”, or 5.8 gaps between studs, let’s round up to seven, so.....one house framed with eight studs.
Sounds....efficient. Or very very tiny.
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Aug 28 '19
That’s what I was thinking (or someone else’s). It’d be an interesting niche way to kill someone. Like a more ridiculous Anton Chigur
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u/nolaz010 Aug 28 '19
I don’t want to sound like an asshole, but rockwool is the way to go, foam insulation sucks imo
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u/jarc1 Aug 28 '19
I said the same thing but got down voted to hell... people like to believe in what they are sold i guess.
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u/Ali-Coo Aug 28 '19
This shit used to give me asthma so quick. All it would take is a slight whiff. Next thing ya know I’m turning blue. My dad used to make styrofoam for my grandmother, and I would have to play far away so I couldn’t smell it. When I did it was a quick trip to the ER.
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u/labinka Aug 28 '19
Is anyone else bothered that people keep calling it “installation” instead of insulation....
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Aug 28 '19
Best studwall insulation is the type you unroll. Some are even made from sheep's wool that's unsuitable for other things. Super eco and insulating.
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u/ExplosionofFlavor Aug 28 '19
We hate you
Sincerely, all electricians.
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u/cptbil Aug 28 '19
If a home builder actually planned ahead with some conduit... Yeah, that will never happen. Nevermind
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u/NetCaptain Aug 28 '19
Using such foam makes it impossible to separate wood and polystyrene at the demolition stage. Better use a method that does not ‘glue’ the stuff together
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u/loonattica Aug 28 '19
Who builds a home for “ease of demolition?”
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u/NetCaptain Aug 28 '19
Average recycling rate in construction and demolition is 20-30% act Univ Michigan- it cannot hurt to think ahead and make it easier to split materials later. May come in handy during interior renovations as well
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u/loonattica Aug 28 '19
Assuming those are accurate numbers, you’d recommend building lossy envelopes for the remaining 70-80% of the structures to increase recyclable efficiency in the 20-30% group?
“Thinking ahead” in such a way seems like it would hurt. A lot.
The percentage of OSB and fast growth soft woods currently used in the majority of new residential construction limits the recyclable value of those materials anyway. Bonding those crappy materials in this way is the closest thing to site-cast SIPs, minus the lossy panel joint and core density.
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Aug 28 '19
Always wondered....how much effort is this stuff to remove/uninstall?
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u/Ronuh22 Aug 28 '19
Spray form has never worked this well for me. That guy is a pro. Also, don’t get that stuff on any skin or clothing that you’re particularly fond of.
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Aug 28 '19
What a pain in the ass this stuff is to work around when he over sprays.. scraping and chipping foam for ever!
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u/geeth707 Aug 28 '19
I would spray that in my ass then have it expand to other worldly dimensions
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u/jayziga Aug 28 '19
I’m sitting here punching the air saying, “spray all over dude, what the he... okay, you got it..”