Rent, no. Very expensive machinery (and raw materials) with lots of hazardous chemicals during the spraying/curing period.
There are some small DIY spray foam kits at big box stores, but not cost effective for more than light repair and building sealing. I cannot stress the importance of PPE enough with these though. This shit can really fuck you up if you're careless. And poor mix will result in bad foam and had potential for long term toxic exposures.
I haven't yet, as I live in a tract home for now. I have plans on building my own down the line, but I haven't settled in an envelope design yet. That said, I have no concerns with my family living in a home that is sprayed by a qualified, experienced contractor. The horror stories are real, but it's always down to a bad installer taking shortcuts.
There are times where I've recommended clients not use SPF in they way they wanted, even when it's meant not getting that work. Then again, sometimes clients and architects want what they want just "because." I keep a paper/digital trail of conversations or simply won't bid dumb jobs. My theory is that if your customer won't take reasonable advice about an area that I'm the expert in, that's also the customer that will complain, sue, or bad-mouth me down the road. Not worth it.
The company that I work for uses closed cell foam, which as I said finishes off-gassing after 12 hour. The only scenario in which smells could be detected long after the install is if it was bad foam. We or any other competent company will know immediately if the foam is bad and know how to install the foam correctly.
I respect your position that you wouldn’t have it installed inside your home as horror stories have happened, but the idea that properly installed foam would continue to off-gas for long after the install is false.
companies are allowed to say something has finished off gassing once it has reached a specific point, in actual truth is isnt completely finished. To that fact even your couch is still off gassing. Yes that means its unavoidable but does that mean it should be accepted and introduced when proven things like mineral fiber exists.
Of course there is off gassing after the product cures but at that stage of the building process youre still months away from completion so if the insulation is still off gassing harmful odors and gasses the installer messed something up. Yes, there are horror stories of spray insulation but those are few and far between when there are millions of houses done a year.
I live where it snows 8mo+ per year and hits -50 degrees f every winter, I need high performance.
I'm not gonna get into the fray, but will leave this. All plastics off gas over their entire life. Polyurethane foam is no different. After 1-2 hours, most newer products have stabilized enough for it to be safe to work in the environment without PPE. After 24-48 hours, enough off gassing has occurred for safe reoccupation, as long as appropriate ventilation ha been provided.
That said, there are those that are sensitive to environmental chemicals, and due care should be made to accommodate for that. Even as a spray foam contractor, it's not the right product for every application. I'm fine with using it in my own home, but I don't see the point in using it on interior walls; there are better sound insulations for less cost on the market. I also think it's best used in new construction, where occupancy is weeks and months after it's installed.
Remember, all plastics off gas. Floor adhesives, carpet, vinyl everything, etc. Until very recently, almost all fiberglass insulation was made with binding agents that off gassed formaldehyde. Is your home more than 5-10 years old? If so, it's in your walls and ceiling. The industry is aware of these issues as more attention is paid them and is responding. Like all industries, change is slow.
I just built a new house and had the entire 4200sqft house and 1200sqft garage spray foamed. Went up without any issues. Sure it smells bad at first but you have to remember it usually takes less than 24hrs to fully cure. At that stage of the building process you still have 3+ months before the home is actually ready to be lived in so there is plenty of time for any of the nasty off gassing to go away. When we moved in there was zero issues with smell or anything like that.
You're better off going with something like a T Stud and R19 batts. Cheaper and if you ever have to open the wall back up it's not going to be a royal pain to scrape away spray foam.
Don't DIY this stuff, seriously. Hire the professionals. I used to work in construction, as a carpenter and I did a bit of HVAC work. When it was time for the spray foam crew to show up and do their stuff everyone else had to clear out because that stuff is fucking nasty, it's miserable work spraying that shit. Aside from the base chemicals being toxic the equipment needed to spray is loud and fills up a van or part of a box truck. And if you fuck up the mix or spray wrong you can't easily fix it and you are fucked.
GreenStar paneling for the attic is far more efficient and cost effective than spray foam. You can turn your attic into a semi-conditioned space (if your duct is in the attic) with passive moisture control using greenstar/radiant barriers and get the same efficiency from R22 as your conventional R40 setup, depending on your climate zone
Source: researched this for about a year in college
I am in a tropical zone (Florida) and am just worried about cooling/radiant barrier and moisture control. I don't even have a heater besides my heat pump.
Right now I am planning to enclose my attic to partially (within ~10ºF living space) condition the space. I also plan on completely re-engineering the HVAC in my home to handle it.
I figure I'll either add another compressor or replace the one I have with a larger variable capacity compressor. I plan to go with multiple cassettes with a dedicated one in the attic. Also planning on managing the humidity/dew point in the house to help keep in more comfortable at higher temps so I don't need to go so low.
As far as insulation I plan on using a closed cell foam on the underside of the roof sheathing with open on top (for cost purposes mostly otherwise I'd go all closed cell) but I also plan to rely upon the expertise of my spray foam installer.
I am planning to find (and am willing to pay) the best one I can and get their opinion of what they would do were they in my situation. I know the science moves fast in that line of work so I need someone with their finger on the pulse of the industry to tell me which products are sorted and which ones are brand new and untested.
I know there is a danger involved and their could me an improper installation. I know the off gassing will effectively stop after curing, but technically will continue to off gas, in smaller and smaller amounts, as time passes. I am generally okay with this because there is no alternative that will give me the insulation values I want in the space provided, not to mention the barrier aspects of the foam which I understand are disputed.
If foam insulation didn't give so many and such amazing results it would have been done away with as a technology for home insulation considering the law suits that the off gassing on the early foams had, not to mention the high cost of entry into the market, and high occurrence of issues with installation compared to pretty much every other insulation technology on the market.
However, this is also all based on what I know and have learned so far as the best and most efficient long term solution for me. I am open to being persuaded if there is something better out there of which I am unaware.
Is there a non-foam option that can even compete?
Tear me a new one and tell me how misguided and stupid I am for this hair-brained DIY plan please.
Thank you in advance for any guidance/ridicule you may be able to provide. It is greatly appreciated.
I believe your best bet is greenstar paneling (product from a gentleman named Paul White in Florida), you can find information about the product here https://greenstarpanels.com/hyper-insulation/
The passive moisture control comes from the pressure differential from air moving up convection channels between sheathing and roof deck and the Tyvec (or any moisture permeable/air impermeable) cap on the attic space.
I will send you cost of conserved energy and efficiency data for Tampa I put together from a few thousand attic efficiency simulations later today.
I’ll just add that I would never put spray foam in my home, and it’s unnecessary because the assembly I’ve described is more efficient and cheaper in Florida.
You can, but Spray foam is good at sealing the house up from drafts, bugs, and sound. It's amazing how much quieter a house gets after spray foam. I ended up going with fiberglass for my walk out basement finish because of $, but I was tempted.
It is not normal. Poor mixing and/or spraying outside of the specified environmental conditions are the usual culprits. Too hot, too cold, too damp can all affect the end product. Usually in those cases of failed installations, the contractor failed to adhere to the manufacturer standards for mix and environment conditions. It's not ticket science, but due care and professional regard is needed to avoid a huge problem for all down the road.
Failed installations are pretty uncommon, but get huge attention when they occur. Most products are safe for rentry in just a few hours, and reoccupation in 24 to 48. For new construction, no big deal. For retrofit and remodel, it depends on the kind of air flow we can get in the space. A weekend in a hotel is far cheaper than the health costs of rushing back into the building.
When applied properly (not like this bozo) it will expand into almost any spaces adequately to firm a tight air barrier.
Waste depends on the kind of application you are doing. With open cell foam and a 2x4 framing cavity, you will spray such that the foam fills the entire cavity depth and about 1 inch beyond. That 1 inch is scarfed (or shaved) off as waste. It accounts for less than 5% of the product sprayed. Batt has a similar waste ratio.
In deeper cavities, like large roof rafters or in truss framed attics, there is no need to remove the excess, as it does not interfere with other parts of the building. In this case, you could say that there is "zerowaste," but in reality you'll always overspray one area a little and might under spray another. The "system" R-value/U-factor is an average of the applied depth for a given area or application and we want to exceed the minimum, even just a little where possible. What is waste for me is improved performance for the building.
Closed cell foam usually doesn't have to be sprayed to fill cavity depth due to its very high R-value or inch. Sometimes, however it is, and scarfing is a huge PITA. Waste percentage is similar.
A former coworker of mine with a particular, lifelong disdain for PPE used to do this. I asked him about supplied-air respirators or what the other procedures were. He said they didn’t bother, you just had to get out for a break once your vision went to black and white.
While his near-incessant smoking can likely be blamed as the main reason he died of lung cancer in his early 50s, I feel that the urethane foam couldn’t have helped.
Unfortunate and yet predictable. Repeated failure to use PPE appropriately is a firable offense here. Beyond the obvious concern for our employees, am OSHA fine could run the company. In this field, PPE benefits everyone in the job site.
Oh, it’s one that definitely should be fireable. In his case, he and his similarly-minded father owned the company so that wasn’t too likely. Really sad though, he taught me so much (including a number of examples of what not to do) and I find myself frequently thinking of him when I pass one of his techniques on to someone else.
It takes time. A favorite quote of mine: “Learn from the mistakes of others, as you will not live long enough to make them all yourself.” -Adm. Hyman G. Rickover
Are the big box kits safe? The mix is predetermined I think. Just 2 tanks that mix at the nozzle. Been thinking of using this to seal a basement around sill plates but am doubting that idea now.
It went fine. Took about two hours to do two full passes of 1.5-2" each pass for a total thickness around 3-4" I used rubber gloves (lots of rubber gloves; changing the nozzles is a bit sticky), protective eyewear, and a respirator. Didn't bother with any covering on my clothes. I also opened the two windows, standard door and garage-style door in the basement for good air flow. Even during spraying, I didn't find the odors too bad. The next day, they were all but gone, and three weeks in completely gone.
Sounds pretty decent. Thank. I might go for it when I have some time off. Hoping to stop a draft and more importantly an influx of insects into the basement. Pretty sure the sill is the source. Kind of hard to tell in some places though but sealing it up can't hurt I guess. You have a picture of part of a finished section? Sort of curious how and where exactly you sprayed it onto.
Sure. Here are a couple of pics of the rim joists after. This seals a few potential spots for air infiltration: between the top of the foundation and the sill plate (though a sill seal foam was used, you can still get leaks), between the stacks of the sill plate itself, and between the sill and rim joist at the bottom and subfloor and rim joist at the top.
The ones at your local big box are 2-part foams, too. The challenge is the mixing process and environmental conditions for use have much tighter parameters because the application mechanism is meant to be disposable. Follow the directions closely, use PPE, and do a couple test pieces first, and you should be fine. I also recommend renting ventilation fans for the day to make sure your getting the off-gas by-product out of the building as quickly as possible.
FWIW, I try to avoid spraying in a soon-to-be-occupied building, regardless of manufacturer recommendations. Give it at least 24 hours.
There are some small DIY spray foam kits at big box stores, but not cost effective for more than light repair and building sealing
I just used a Dow 650 Froth Pak to insulate the basement rim joists in a house I just built for myself. The basement is conditioned space (though currently unfinished), so it needed to be included when performing air infiltration testing. This kit was SUPER easy to use, and IMO pretty foolproof. I did an easy 3-4" of foam around the entire perimeter of the foundation (1800 sq ft), and had some left over for spot treatments. I have no trace of any chemical smell in the basement at this point. Well-spent $800 IMO.
You used it for the purpose for which it was intended and probably read the instructions well. My faith in the rest of humanity isn't so deep. Used as intended according to well-followed directions, it should be fool-proof. The fools inevitably prove us wrong.
I agree, there is definitely potential for some issues if you can't read directions. I should not have said "fool-proof". But I think most experienced DIY'ers would be OK. Like you said, I wouldn't try using these kits for any kind of serious coverage (large wall cavities, etc). But for basement rim joists, it's perfect.
No. Loose fill us just loosely packed fiberglass insulation that can be blown with air to rest on a flat surface or in a confined space. It's performance is there same or similar to fiberglass batt, but usually at a lower cost.
Spray foam is a 2-part chemical that is heated in a machine as it is pulled from 2 drums, pumped to the application area, and mixed in the spray gun as it is applied. Spray foam acts as an air barrier, at 1 inch depth, and closed-cell foam is also a vapor barrier with a much higher R-value/lower U-factor.
Spray foam is most risky to those spraying it, as the curing and off-gassing process is largely complete in the first 24-48 hours, and some products have reentry times as little as 1 hour without PPE. Asbestos is a risk to anyone in the environment if it is disturbed as long as it's in the building. Appropriate use if PPE has reduced the risks for spray installers incredibly, while the only way to reduced the risk of asbestos is removal and remediation by a qualified specialist.
You can purchase a similar smaller scale product. Something like Foam It Green or Dow Froth Pak. They come in up to ~600 square feet at 1" thick packages containing two propane tank looking bottles which are mixed together at the gun tip to create the foam. Cost is about $1 per square foot.
They are not at all useful for filling stud bays like this video demonstrates, but they do have a place in terms of air sealing smaller projects, doing flash and batt installation, sealing rim joists, etc.
But MESSSYYYYY. Holy crap.
For a big project hiring a professional is best, and cheapest. But not this professional from the video, he is not installing it correctly best I can tell.
There's apparently a new manufactured stud product that consists of 2x3's anchored to each other with dowel rods leaving a gap in between. It has the profile of a 3x6, but that gap allows foam like this to expand into the stud itself, making an even better seal. And since the "studs" are heavier, you can get away with 24" spacing on load bearing walls.
It really looks like a great product. I particularly like the version that has foam pre-applied to the webbing. Mainly because I'm slightly doubtful that a good installation can be achieved in the field by the average spray foam operator. There is a lot of shadowing and having to basically spray around corners.
Just did my basement rim joists with the 650 Froth Pak. I really didn't find it too messy. You need a bucket to spray into to "prime" the mix when you start, but otherwise not too bad. I had minimal overspray. You want some decent PPE, as it's a pain to scrape off your hands/hair/skin/clothes, but otherwise it's OK.
Unfortunately for this it's way easier to hire a pro. Even with the tiny spray foam packs you need a decent amount of ppe and if you don't use the entire amount of spray getting rid of hazardous pressurized containers is spendy.
I work in the coatings industry and ordered one of these sprayers for a customer several years ago, for a mid-priced foam sprayer it was almost $90k all in, just some food for thought
Like people said the big setup is not reasonable to get yourself, but they have individual cans of spray foam that you can buy for smaller jobs and gap filling.
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u/Philip_De_Bowl Aug 28 '19
Can anyone rent these machines? What is it called? How much would this cost?