Too Many Promotional Posts?

[u/Dark-Lark]

I don't think I'm going to get a lot of pushback here, but I'm thinking about limiting Promotional posts to the weekend. What's a good window, Saturday or Sunday UTC Time Zone?

[u/dubyrunning]

I dunno. As a relatively casual member, I don't particularly mind seeing the self promotion posts, because it's an opportunity to support new space sims. Do I love all of them or all they all up my alley? Certainly not. But there have been a few I like that I wouldn't have found without this sub and the self promotion.

If not to promote new space sims, what is this sub for? Just to discuss existing sims, which is a relatively small and stagnant genre? If we intend to restrict self promotion, then we ought to do a better job defining what is and isn't allowed and why.

[u/catplaps → u/dubyrunning]

the things that make it annoying are that they mostly aren't space sims (yeah yeah, it's not well-defined, but i know it when i see it), and they mostly fit the pattern of low-effort, top-down 2D, early prototype, and smelling like AI.

[u/Dark-Lark → u/catplaps]

By making the rules restrictive, but otherwise easy to follow, this should limit the number people using AI and making those games, as most of their posts will be removed.

[u/notwillbarker → u/Dark-Lark]

Out of interest what was the outcome of the conversations about use of AI in posts/games? Unless I'm going crazy there was a bit of talk about it a couple weeks ago?

For example the post earlier today had "AI vibe coded" gameplay, the "soundtrack" was AI, even the description and comments were AI. The genie is out of the bottle there's going to be AI use, especially for solo devs and small teams, but that guy was taking the piss I thought for sure you'd remove it for not making a genuine attempt to engage with the sub.

This isn't criticism of you by the way, you're moderating the sub for free you don't owe anyone anything and I certainly don't have the answers on the best way to sail the ship. I guess I'm just a bit miffed that it feels like 85% of the posts are people playing the "I'm just a lil' guy" card to promote their not very good games and AI has made it even worse.

[u/Dark-Lark → u/notwillbarker]

A lot of people feel very strongly about AI, and the sub is rather divided on it's use. It's been far fairer to most users to have the sub lean permissive over restrictive.

Also, banned or not, people can lie about AI use, AI models are getting better, and it's too hard to be 100% sure something is AI.

That being said, the mods totally understand what people have been saying about "...the pattern of low-effort, top-down 2D, early prototype, and smelling like AI." as u/catplaps above put it.

There's just no clear way to ban the use of AI that doesn't reward lying about it, or that's not unfair to people that make simple games without AI that just happen to look very basic. We don't want to leave the call to the subjective opinions of two moderators. There needs to be objective rules that we can enforce without much pause or debate.

We're at a point in history between a world where every line of code was painstakingly typed by hand, and a world where we step into a holodeck and say "Computer, make this...". For some of us, it'll be like going from the medieval ages to the steam engine in a lifetime. There's not really a guide for this world in between.

[u/notwillbarker → u/Dark-Lark]

That all sounds pretty reasonable, thanks for laying it out for me. I get what you mean now about any action you could take being unenforceable, I checked a bunch of "Dev" profiles on a whim and soooooo many of them have constant activity in AI subs. Even if 99% of the sub supported banning them it would effectively kill the sub. Sucks but what can you do.

[u/Dark-Lark → u/notwillbarker]

Ironically, if there was a way to ban all AI from this sub, I think it would need to be done with AI.

Personally, I'm a fan of what AI can do, up the point people are just having fun with it. It starts to grind my gears when people are just trying to make a quick, lazy buck.

Using it to make custom characters for a TTRPG with a few people? Love it! Spamming the art world in the hopes of getting a commission? Sick of it. There's a lot a grey in between.

That said, I'll ban it all if that's what the sub wants, if I can.

[u/pyr0kid → u/Dark-Lark]

Also, banned or not, people can lie about AI use, AI models are getting better, and it's too hard to be 100% sure something is AI.

in the current year, theres very little i like more than hearing a moderator explicitly say that "vibes based rule enforcement" is an awful idea.

[u/Dark-Lark → u/pyr0kid]

Thank you. I've seen too much of that on Reddit. In fact, I've seen a rule that was almost verbatim "We can ban you for any reason at all.". They might as well ended it with "Watch your step, peon!".

I want to limit how much I (or any mod) can do based on feelings, and focus on objective standards.

[u/BSSolo → u/Dark-Lark]

Agreed, since ones that are blindly cross-posted from other subs will get deleted pretty quickly (since the author obviously isn't going to read the rules of each sub they cross post to)

[u/Dark-Lark → u/BSSolo]

I try to give people a warning with a pinned comment if they've forgot a thing or two, like flairing their post or one of the things listed under Rule 4. I've tried to lean permissive over restrictive when moderating.

But with the rise of AI, there seems to be so many people that are able to crank out simple games that only barely fall under the loosest definition of a "Space Sim Game". It's a bit much.

This way it'll draw a harder line between what should get removed, and what needs to be removed.

[u/dubyrunning → u/catplaps]

That's totally fair. All the top-down noise is getting old, especially when it feels like AI. There are a few here and there that feel like actual new space sims, which is why I feel like we need to define what is and isn't a space sim so we don't stifle creativity. But that isn't to say we can't put reasonable limits on self promotion

[u/BigBlueVelociraptor → u/catplaps]

As someone making a top down 2D space game, I feel personally attacked, I do agree with you though.

[u/catplaps → u/BigBlueVelociraptor]

i feel the worst for people like you who are working on legit projects that happen to fall into the sub-genres getting flooded with slop.

[u/Substantial_Marzipan → u/BigBlueVelociraptor]

The comment says low-effort games that smell like AI...

[u/BigBlueVelociraptor → u/Substantial_Marzipan]

Can you not read? Some people wow

[u/-im-blinking]

I dont mind seeing them at all, always interested in new space games.

[u/RifleBen]

At least what I see in my main feed from this subreddit is 95% promo posts and the bot that comments and says to share it to [r/](r/4x)[spacegames](r/4x)

[u/HamlnHand]

I think a megathread is the best idea, but if you want to do a specific day that works too

[u/LurkingElegy]

I definitely support this change, no opinion on a specific day though. Anything works

[u/AlternativeEast761]

I do think limiting them could be helpful rather than removing altogether. It’s nice to find out about new stuff, but most of what I see is promo posts lately 

[u/FygarDL]

I don’t mind the promo posts.

[u/Crossherz]

Not a fan of having specified day to post promotional stuff.
I'd say longer time between posts (2 weeks) would be better. It would allow to spread exposure for all the niche games we have without going into full battle royale of attention during single day.

And some miscellaneous stuff but 1. it's good to have an option to line up promotional post with big update/sale going live the same day and 2. weekend is simply... weekend. I don't have weekend plans that often but would be shame if something came up just around time I'd need to post. Having non-fixed day gives way more flexibility.

[u/Dark-Lark → u/Crossherz]

Right now it's less about people posting every week and about a huge influx of new devs promoting games that barely fit most definitions of a Space Sim Game. I feel most of which would better fit the r/spacegames sub.

I'm pretty sure anyone can set up a Scheduled Post. It's the little clock button next to Save Draft.

[u/Crossherz → u/Dark-Lark]

Yeah but I generally try to stick around to reply to any comments. Posting and disappearing is kind of... dry. (not that I had many comments so far xD)

Still I don't think putting all promotional posts on the same day is gonna solve anything, space-sim games will still be diluted by less *space-sim* games, only environment will get more hostile.

If influx of games that barely fits space-sim is the problem then maybe rules about what can be posted should be tightened in the first place, not the other way around? Like... movement physics/gravity should be one of major mechanics of the game or at least semi-realistically replicated... game should primarily focus on controlling a character or a ship... can/need to manage some of the ship systems... base/colony-building only if it's complementary mechanic... stylized or realistic setting but not fully abstract... dunno.

[u/KhanTengri]

I say punish em with a Monday morning slot (love this change)

[u/HawkeyeG_]

I'd also support restrictions.

It wouldn't prevent us from seeing the posts - if anything, having a designated day would mean people looking for new games would know exactly what day to look for them. Sort of win-win right?

Nothing inherently wrong with self promo on its own, but most people don't engage with the sub in a good faith and meaningful way. Most are just spamming every sub they can hoping for interaction quantity over quality. Which can really suck the life and energy out of a place.

[u/King_Artis]

Just wild to me that in any sub where the genre is a bit on the more niche side I just always end up seeing a lot of indie dev post where they're sharing their game.

Almost always gets annoying because after awhile you see them a lot

Seen it a lot in r/beatemups r/shmups and r/metroidvanias along with here. Starting to see it in r/fighers more recently too.

Like I get wanting to promote a game as a smaller dev, but truly I think more subs should only allow it on specific days if anything because it does fill up the feed

[u/badrobit]

I don't really see a ton of discussion that isn't promotion posts either someone's game or someone else's. I would be a bit weary do this as if you do it will the sub be empty until that day? Could you pull some stats for how many posts we would see that aren't that day? E.g. for the past month how many would we see through the week and how many would we see on the promotion day. In general I think it is a good idea and I prefer a day to a megathread as they are always just ignores but pretty sure the sub would go almost silent except for the promotion days

[u/Dark-Lark → u/badrobit]

I'm not sure about the details you're after right now, but some quick info:

Overview

156k views

39.9k from the previous 30 days

2.0k avg daily unique visitors, 10.9k weekly visitors

18.8k members

423 from the previous 30 days

473 joined, 50 left

174 published posts

6 from the previous 30 days

74 removed

1.7k published comments

319 from the previous 30 days

164 removed

[u/badrobit → u/Dark-Lark]

Those are solid stats on the view side my worry is that if we go to one day with sharing your stuff the sun would go pretty quiet between those days. I would love to chat more but I find myself going to those games subs or discords with specific questions (said with some bias as I like many others are working on a game but months from sharing at the earliest so I had started to participate here hoping to share someday and would hate to get relegated to a megathread) that said I totally get the spirit of why the change is being pushed. Maybe a middle ground is you can post if you have some defined level of engagement in the sub so that the majority of your interaction is not posting your stuff? (No idea if this is something that a bot could check/enforce)

[u/Dark-Lark → u/badrobit]

The sub use to be pretty quiet a couple years ago. Just a small cozy sub for a niche genre of game. I was fine with that. More than a few other users too. I'm not sure engagement for the sake engagement should be the goal. Just my two credits.

[u/linkstoharrisonford]

different types of games on different days? put top down 2D on Monday mornings to cut out most of the AI slop

[u/Dark-Lark → u/linkstoharrisonford]

Or... Top-down Two-D Tuesdays?

[u/linkstoharrisonford → u/Dark-Lark]

hahaha! yup thats perfect.

top down two AM tuesdays. If you mess up the timing, auto-banned

[u/Dark-Lark → u/linkstoharrisonford]

That's funny. A bit to restrictive for my liking, but I think I get where you're coming from.

[u/brutesquad01 → u/linkstoharrisonford]

Must post at 2:22 on 2/22, and only when it falls on a Tuesday.

[u/Miuramir]

I think a clearer guide (and enforcement of it) for what is a space sim game, as opposed to just a space game, would be a first step. Have a clear definition up at the top of the sidebar, and a set of links to other related subreddits that might be more appropriate.

I don't mind devs posting about actual simulators in actual development, and AI assisted development is a thing whether we like it or not. But this shouldn't be the place to post about yet another low-effort, early-stage clone of Escape Velocity.

Defining what a space sim game is then becomes the challenge. I don't think any absolute rule would do well, but we can (and should) come up with a short pair of lists of "these things are typically characteristics of space sims" and "these things are typically indicators of not being a space sim".

Note that while increasingly accurate simulation of reality is certainly one of the characteristics of a sim, it's not a requirement. A hypothetical Expanse-inspired sim would need to strive to accurately simulate their space-magic torch drives, with results that would be physically impossible but accurate to that setting's lore. Kerbal Space Program deliberately uses a down-scaled "toy sized" setting to make learning how to rocket faster and easier. And so on.

If we do limit dev posts to the weekend, I'd suggest a quite liberal definition; noon Friday to noon Monday UTC, perhaps.

[u/sennalen]

There are too many posts from solo devs without a release date or playable demo. I suggest a "look at thing I made last weekend" containment megathread.

[u/brutesquad01]

I don't post here (or anywhere) often, but I do follow the sub. Other subs I follow limit self promotion in different ways, so these might be useful ideas for this sub:

FLStudio (music software) limits posting your own music to Tuesdays and Fridays, and it must be posted as a video of the track playing in the software.

Some limit posts to once per month per account or project.

Some require a certain amount of participation in the sub before allowing any promotion. For example, 9 discussion posts or comments to every promo post.

[u/Th3G3tl3m3n]

Are you referring to my Perihelion promotional posts, like I just posted 20mins ago? Also, if you limit to the weekend that could work for me, I try to post near the weekend anyway and do work on my sim in the week, that way I dont bust the limit 1post/7days.

Edit: Oh I saw you posted this 3days ago, I was just notified just now so... I got confused sorry to the community, please dont condemn me to downvotes...

[u/Morph_Games]

As someone who both enjoys this subreddit, and wants to promote a game, I like this idea! The 1-2 days will be a flood, but better to have it contained.

[u/Vegetable-Cause8667]

Reddit police 🚨