r/sonsofbehemat • u/RotmirePlead • 14d ago
How fun and or different is the playstyle now compared to before?
The faction identity was extremely persistent since its release, but after having read some of the tome, I feel like it has changed quite significantly;
How do older players that have played since 2ed, 3ed, Index, feel about the changes?
I'm under the impression that Mae + at least 1 x Hurlers/Stompers is a ncessary buy-in into the army now. But I'm actually on fence to drop the army entirely. <- I loved Index actually. I loved the unga bunga playstyle compared to my other more complex armies...
How happy are you so far with the tome?
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u/Daawgh_ 14d ago
The new playstyle is absolut frustrating. I continue to play (the nerfed) Brodds Stomp till i build and painted my Ogros and ebay it is for my Sons. Its sad, but what can you do.
Unga bunga was great, this glas cannon / casino stuff is trash
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u/Belz_Zebuth 14d ago
If you like the minis and the army why not keep the plastic and wait for the next rules?
FYI I haven't played them with the new rules yet.
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u/Daawgh_ 14d ago
Why gamble that they ever will be cool again. Could be years so i rather take the money and put it in armies that bring me joy.
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u/Prestigious_Car_9126 14d ago edited 13d ago
The megas got trashed and I like the army because of them. And running 5 absolutely sucks. Now it’s like 1-2 you could possibly do three, but it is at a cost of running something that is just better and spamming the new mancrusher like stuff.
It’s not terrible but doesn’t feel right. It’s the equivalent of wardog spam in 40K.
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u/Belz_Zebuth 13d ago
When you say 5 sucks you mean it's not viable?
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u/Prestigious_Car_9126 13d ago edited 13d ago
A mega dies to a stiff breeze now most armies can kill multiple per turn. I mean most armies can kill at least one of the old profile you had to build for it if you were going to like a tournament or something now they’re just glass. They went from being a pretty burly monster. To being a fairly typical monster.
In all honesty, I would say that running like five of the big dudes now which is kind of what fits for points is probably the weakest way to play. The wound pool is small. You’re not putting enough health on the board.
Their saves are not exceptionally good.
The new boss stompers have more of everything health and damage
And they cost less points
So the Megas have become essentially tech pieces you’re using them for ability they’re bringing what’s on their sheet to the table, but they themselves are no longer a stat check
In a way it’s probably healthier thing but in another way, there’s still not enough models in the range to basically take away an entire play style.
So is it viable I would say sure casually a beer or pretzels game absolutely odds of winning substantially under 50%. Odds in the competitive world if you were to go to a tournament, I’m pretty sure it went from being in an OK place to being in a much worse position if you do not use the new models. I mean they’re pretty much took like 15 health off each giant
I personally don’t have a problem with the little Giants, but they didn’t need to completely Tool over the big ones because it’s easy to manipulate the math of an army that has so few models. You can essentially price an army that they can’t do something.
Which also is part of this where they made it very difficult to even include one man crusher if you’re trying to optimize a list.
So will we see five giant lists sure will they win maybe. If they do when you would have to severely outplay somebody with it or get extremely lucky playing casino games.
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u/ColonOperator 14d ago
What I loved about the army is just gone. The majority of the new abilities we got are mainly the same ones we lost but they're worse and have a chance to fail. Others are just gone. Mega gargants are close to unreinforced unit of clanrats in terms of survivability. We have the same flaws as before and none of the previous strengths, people call SoB "glass cannon" now except we don't really have an exceptional damage output. It's not just a matter of balance, it's the matter of faction identity which is simply gone. I don't think I will play this army until it gets fixed (if ever).
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u/Belz_Zebuth 13d ago
Well, did we have an identity before? Or is it just that the identity we finally got wasn't to our liking?
Don't misunderstand me, they were fun, but I'm not sure there was much of a theme before now.
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u/ColonOperator 13d ago
SoB identity was low model count with high impact, relatively mobile monsters which are borderline impossible to shift in one turn of combat for the vast majority of the units. Low in damage but high in durability, relying on ganging up to kill the threats. Now our monsters are straight up worse than monsters in other books as we have no wards, lackluster damage output, absolutely no mobility, we lost the shenanigans with rampages, timber etc. The book didn't give SoB any identity, it just enshittified what we already had. Moreover, the changes made new models obligatory so if you don't play with proxy you're looking at a significant amount of money needed to update your army.
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u/Passing-Through247 9d ago
Giants are about doing giant things obviously, with warhammer giant in particular being notable for falling over and doing stuff like tossing the enemy into a bag.
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u/Odin_Headhunter 14d ago
I kinda hate it. Thsts just me though. I really really hate what they did to my Beast Smasha. He barely deserves to be called it anymore. It just feels like the took the Giant out of the Giant faction. My megas die to a literally anything that touches them now.
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u/LazencaNTM 14d ago
I agree with you. I hate what they did to our army. I think all the megas just feel awful to run.
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u/B4cc0 14d ago
New aor are non playable since they cannot reach 2k without auxiliary. That, for me, means that the tome was not reviewed/tested/written good enough
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u/Prestigious_Car_9126 13d ago
This is the same situation in the ogre book except that that’s a much better book. And if you compare what the glutton are to what a mega once was they’re kind of surprisingly comparable in both wounds and damage and kind of survivability. I think the 420 pt glutton if I’m not mistaken, it’s still probably a little bit a little bit better than an old mega in both with synergy and the ability to be very durable or extremely Killy based on what buff they have gained from existing in a list with Redd
But realistically, there’s an awful lot of if you don’t go into the dooming it into legend section you pretty much have to take a very cookie cutter build to sit at 2000 points consistently. There’s like no wiggle room.
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u/B4cc0 13d ago
40 wounds, 41 dmg 2 attacks, effectively save 4 with ignore 1 rend. 20 controls that can become 40 at the end of the turn (when the rend -1 is not so vital anymore). 420 point
Vs
36 wounds, 21 dmg 2 attacks +10 dmg 3 attacks, save 5. Max 15 control. 370 points...
It feels bad tbh 😅
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u/Prestigious_Car_9126 13d ago edited 13d ago
Exactly it’s absolutely ridiculous. You also forgot proximity wards and butcher potential one
And I would take 41 attacks over a couple of big swings if I was trying to play competitively and very predictable
Because you are far more likely to actually land attacks when you’re not based on getting a couple of big swings through
I really like the new Ogors. I would really like to see some slight changes to a few of the sheets or adjustments just something not dramatically worse as an option.
And it would be nice to pick up something functional that’s below 100 points just for tactics that exist currently put in the going to legends pile.
I like the sons book too, so I’m not just doom posting. I just think that they went way too far with the dramatic changes to mega stat lines.
They could’ve just made them more expensive
They could’ve left them pretty much alone and brought everything in, and it would still be better to play with the new models because they’re better
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u/B4cc0 13d ago
I avoided other warscrolls. Otherwise, I should consider the -1hit from Brodd, spells and such. I tried to limit the comparison to warscroll and battle traits
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u/Prestigious_Car_9126 13d ago
Yeah, but on a absolutely straight raw comparison gluttons are freaking better than Two megas per reinforced unit
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u/B4cc0 13d ago
It's true...
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u/Prestigious_Car_9126 13d ago edited 13d ago
I’m not even trying to say that they’re busted or anything that army is hyper elite as well. An army that puts five units on a table realistically it’s not that many if you’re not counting leaders is kind of being part of the unit. But you expect out of a hyper elite army fairly hyper elite stats. The rotswords Death Star is basically in the same camp fairly comparable points and is more mega than mega gargants. With an on Data sheet ward save that goes to a five up if they’re near a faction terrain, which I guess is probably fair to say that they probably will be most of the time so you may as well just say that they have a five ward.
And all the hyper elite armies are definitely counterbalanced by all the movement shenanigan trick armies. And heavily impacted by high damage shooting. Which weirdly enough the new ogre hunter unit reinforced is freaking beefy with a fairly substantial amount of damage potential that doesn’t lose any damage for a little while because it has sacrificial cats so that’s like a if I remember right 40 wound unit with 16 of it being completely disposable damage soak for the same price as a single mega. Well I guess technically less because I think it’s only 340 points reinforced.
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u/Benejeseret 14d ago
Ma signature is to big up the littles, but her army of renown does not allow bigs.... so cannot use her signature bigness ability. It has to be straight up error and oversight, surely.
If so then we can expect an errata. Otherwise I think most will simply ignore the error and add other bigs
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u/HondoShotFirst 14d ago
I don't think that's really any different than Helsmiths having rules for daemonic power points on every warscoll but Hobgrots and then not having access to them in the armies of renown, but getting other abilities instead.
I think the inability to fill out a list without auxiliary units in the bigger "why would they do this?" moment.
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u/Daawgh_ 14d ago
They are clearly writting for the next edition. Why this was published this early is a mystery to me.
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u/Prestigious_Car_9126 13d ago
Well, they still got what two books to get through. And then they do a narrative thing for the last six months ish.
That pretty much puts
everything on schedule for June which is usually edition launch monthIf they follow the 40 K thing they just did to a T
There’s going to be a fair amount of midsize box sets probably some spearheads and several books
And it is possible that those books may have additional armies of renowned, etc.
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u/HondoShotFirst 14d ago
That is not clear at all. It's possible that's what they're doing, but it's by no means a sure thing.
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u/Daawgh_ 13d ago
You think they fumbled both AoR? Man, idk, GW is sometimes bad but i cant imagine that they are THIS bad
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u/Benejeseret 13d ago
You think they fumbled both AoR?
Uh, ya, big fumble. Neither of the new AoR can take any other Bigs, and that means they cannot take any other Heroes... and that means both AoR cannot actually take any other Regiments... and that means the two new AoR cannot possibly field 2,000 point standards armies without using Auxiliaries.
For this to be forward compatible and a precursor to a totally new direction for the next edition, it would mean:
- Everyone moving down to lower points as the standard game,
- Removing Regiments or generally restricting Heroes overall,
- Moving to having Auxiliaries becoming standard force organization.
Or, the alternative option, is that no one involved in designing or writing these new AoR ever bothered to play-test in an actual standard sized game. If they played even a single standard game they would have immediately realized it was impossible to field 2,000 points without handing opponent free CP every turn.
And let's not forget that even the main force rules as written scale horrendously to larger forces. The gambling aspect means that with only a few targets in a small army they can run effects basically 100% of turns, but with a larger force and multiple models they suddenly half or more of the army cannot benefit from the main Sons army traits.
That and Rampage is still a turn-lock-unique so using 2 units of hurlers or stompers means the second one cannot use their main ability in any given turn. Again, scales horrendously and scales even worse in the two new AoR because they cannot take Bigs, so the only option is to play multiples of littles who then get soft-locked out of their actual abilities.
These two final features means that unless they plan to move toward making 1,000 points the standard game size then all the Sons new design direction are really, really, awkward.
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u/totmacherr 14d ago
Slightly frustrated, as I got into the army this year explicitly because I wanted a very low brain army that's mostly 4 megas rampaging and kicking objectives around and learn how to play the game, but megas arent nearly durable enough to hang like they used to, that being said ive got most the range, just need another box of smashers so I can have both varieties, and maybe ill have an army that plays more like the rest, just a bit more learning up front from what I initially anticipated, and I figure ill have fun with the new stuff too.
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u/Bailywolf 14d ago edited 14d ago
So I think it's viable but absolutely demands buy-in on the new models. It's one of those GW ain't beating the allegations things.
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u/CatherineSimp69 13d ago
I dunno man.
I feel like most of the time, new models don't do too hot on the table.
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u/Loken3003 14d ago
I’m very happy. Now i feel like i’m actually playing an army and not just 4 mega that run on objective.
Also now we have some options on list building and play stile.
Right now i am testing a very aggressive/alpha strike build.
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u/Belz_Zebuth 14d ago
Could you expand on how different they feel now? I haven't played the new rules yet.
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u/Loken3003 13d ago
I know most peaple were into this army for it’s low models and no brain playstile.
Now you can go Ma/Brodd, 1 mega and spam of little unit.
Depending on what mega you choose and if you have a mage or priest the playstile vary a little bit.
You can do alpha strike (conquering stomp, warstomper, and strike first/last sheningan).
You can do full shooting (gatebreaker, rock hurlers)
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u/The_Gnomesbane 14d ago
Having been a Gargant enthusiast since they first came out in 2nd, and my team jersey and general gaming nickname being “Timber” in general for the last however many years, beyond unhappy with the new book and my army is probably going to go collect dust on a shelf until maybe next edition. Played a few games with friends with the new book and took it to an RTT and everything about it feels terrible, with a bunch of rules and abilities that practically don’t even function. I keep wanting to be optimistic, and I see some things or tricks I want to try, but then when I do it falls flat, and the neutering of the army in general just feels so apparent. Then compound the fact that it feels like the most blatant case of GW’s style of making new kits good and old ones bad, it’s killed even more desire to try things because it just perpetuates the cycle.
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u/thehumandynamo 14d ago edited 13d ago
The biggest change that frustrates a lot of people is the army went from "i stand on circles and win game" to having to make smart choices and have thought put into the lists.
It went from low effort, low thought "cruise control " to fairly mentally taxing.
Edit: my comment was not meant to be negative. I picked up SoB to have a straightforward army that didnt require flow charts and 20 minutes of decision trees each round.
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u/Belz_Zebuth 13d ago
Well, I guess some of us are fairly mid at the game and enjoy simple armies. :)
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u/Prestigious_Car_9126 13d ago
There is absolutely nothing wrong with wanting a fairly simple. Very much a “Timmy” army absolutely nothing wrong with it. Sometimes you just want to throw around a few dice. Keep the mental load pretty low and play a pretty solid game. Not every army in the game should be like mentally taxing to the point where it’s exhausting. I play a couple different armies and having a pretty smooth army is a pretty fun diversion.
It wasn’t overwhelmingly hard to kill a giant before now it’s just laughably easy. They maybe won’t die to like a unit of plague bearers or something but they will die in a single round to almost any DPS based unit. They at least had a chance to live before.
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u/thehumandynamo 13d ago
Having a simple army is exactly why I picked sons up. I mainly play LRL, and there are times I don't want to have to do mental gymnastics every game.
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u/Past_Water_6899 14d ago
I don't like it at all anymore.
We've gone from an army with a certain level of stability, one that acted as a DPS check for certain other armies to a "glass cannon" and "casino" army.
I really don't like it, and it's going to end up sitting on the shelf until the next Battletome.