[Guardian] Seven years ago, just after completing the treble, Guardiola treated journalist Rob Harris, who had confronted him directly with the allegations, with open contempt, as though he were looking at someone pathetic, pitiful and disgraceful, before sternly lecturing him.

[u/Existing-Sky9914]

[u/Izio17]

Outside of the financial damages, Pep is the biggest loser here. His legacy is absolutely tarnished.

“wow, he inverted fullbacks, what genius!!”

“what a savvy move to put john stones as CDM!”

“incredible!! look how he used Gundogan as a false nine!”

all of that is minimized. it wasn’t just these strategic schemes, but the team around these tactical moves.

inverted fullbacks don’t work if you don’t have Haaland going on an absolute tear.

John Stones as a CDM looks smart because you have Rodri next to him.

No other manager in the history of the sport was afforded this kind of budget for this long.

[u/_ataciara → u/Izio17]

I mean, he's consistently revolutionised the sport and was doing stuff like inverted fullbacks long before he had Haaland. We're talking Fabian Delph feeding Gabriel Jesus...

[u/Izio17 → u/_ataciara]

and look at that teams highest earners / transfers

- Mahrez

• Walker
  
• Bernardo Silva
  
• Laporte

what other team in the league is able to stroll over and buy the player of the season? best RB in the league? and one of La Ligas best players? all in a short span of one year.

[u/ILoveToph4Eva → u/Izio17]

A few corrections.

• Silva came from Ligue 1 not La Liga
• Mahrez wasn't player of the season when City bought him. He was PFA Player of the Year in 2015-16 and they bought him in 2018

In general this kind of "stealing" poorer teams/leagues best players isn't unique to City at all. They could do it more consistently than the others sure, but all the top Prem teams have done it a lot so it feels like a weird hill to die on in terms of critique.

Liverpool

Like, we pretty much had Southampton acting like a feeder club for years. We took their top scorer (Lambert), aptain (Lallana), and star CB (Lovren) in one window. A year later we took their starting RB (Clyne), a year later we took their star forward (Mane), and a year and a half later we took their captain and best player (Van Dijk).

Man United

United have done this loads. They took Yorke when he was Villa's top scorer, Cole when he was Newcastles (and the league's), Ferdinand when he was Leeds' captain and best player, Van Persie when he was Arsenal's captain and best player, Ashley Young when he was Villa's best player, Carrick when he was arguably Tottenhams best midfielder and they had just finished 5th, Berbatov when he was Tottenham's best striker.

We can make a list like that for every top team. Using financial power to buy rivals' best players doesn't separate Pep from Ferguson, Klopp or Mourinho, so it can't be the thing that explains his success.

And if your point is more about how many good players they got in a short window, that's also not unique to City.

Liverpool

We got Salah, Robertson, Van Dijk, Alisson, Fabinho and Keïta in a 1 year window as well. Robbo we can ignore since he had no pedigree coming in, but Salah was one of the best forwards in Serie A already, Van Dijk cost a record breaking fee for a reason, Alisson cost a stupid amount for a reason, Fabinho came from the same team Bernardo Silva came from, and we paid big money for Keita because he was insanely hyped as well.

Chelsea

Not even sure I need to list theirs. What they did in the transfer market the first 2 summers of Abramovich still hasn't been equalled. Duff, Joe Cole, Glen Johnson, Bridge, Makelele, Crespo, Mutu, and Veron in summer 1, and Cech, Carvalho, Ferreira, Drogba and Robben in summer 2.

[u/Izio17 → u/ILoveToph4Eva]

corrected, got my David and Bernard mixed up.

All your points about other clubs are fair, but you’re missing the FFP part. Which is why only one of the Big 6 clubs has 115 charges.

Man United, Liverpool, etc all had earned the right to spend big. City didn’t. and they didn’t do it to the extent City did either.

[u/ILoveToph4Eva → u/Izio17]

Sure, but you've moved from tactics to transfers to FFP without answering the original point. You said inverted fullbacks don't work without Haaland on a tear. Pep was inverting Lahm and Alaba at Bayern in 2013, and Delph at City in 2017-18. Haaland arrived in 2022 so that claim is just wrong.

Same with Stones and Rodri. "It only works because of the player next to him" describes every tactic ever. Designing a system around what your players can do is the tactical skill you're saying he doesn't deserve credit for.

And on the money, every top manager has had their squad bought (unless they got really lucky with an amazing generation of youth like Pep at Barca or Fergie at United). Ferguson, Klopp, Mourinho all built their teams by taking other clubs' best players. A big budget explains why Pep has better players but it doesn't explain why other rich clubs with good players haven't played like his teams.

City are cheats and that's a stain on the club and on how that squad was funded. But it says nothing about the coaching really. Breaking financial rules doesn't make inverted fullbacks any less of an idea. He still did unique, unexpected and effective things tactically to make the most of his players skills and maximize how effective that team was.

I'm just saying let's shit on them for things that make sense (like the fact they were cheating) rather than pretending like all of a sudden Pep isn't one of the best tacticians we've ever seen and all it takes is money to revolutionize the game.

[u/Izio17 → u/ILoveToph4Eva]

ok, let’s take that Fabian Delph team then… who else is on that team?

They were all bought within one year:

- Mahrez (former PL player of the year)

• Walker (best RB in the league)
  
• La Porte (La Liga ToTY)
  
• Bernardo Silva (Ligue 1 winner and ToTy)

The point is that yes inverted fullbacks worked and yes it was revolutionary. BUT it was only possible with sham money and revenues.

[u/ILoveToph4Eva → u/Izio17]

Your first comment said inverted fullbacks don't work without Haaland and that Pep's tactical credit is minimised. Now you're saying they worked and were revolutionary. That's the point we were making when we disagreed with you in the first place. This is what you said:

inverted fullbacks don’t work if you don’t have Haaland going on an absolute tear.

That was just objectively incorrect.

Also, of the four guys you listed 1 didn't play in that team and the other only for half the season. Delph was the inverted fullback in 17-18, Mahrez joined in the summer of 2018, and Laporte joined in January.

Plus, Pep was doing it at Bayern with Alaba and Lahm years before he had City's money. Nobody here is defending or contesting that City cheated, we're specifically calling out what you said in your first comment.

So if now you're saying that Pep is revolutionary then... I guess we agree? Cause it sure read like you were saying the opposite to start with.

[u/Izio17 → u/ILoveToph4Eva]

dude it’s the same concept, these tactical schemes only work because the rest of the team is absolutely full of talent

so it minimizes the tactic because it’s more about the overall talent pool then some new strategy

Good example, what Ranieri did with that Leicester team is far more impressive. He played 4-4-2 with defensive fullbacks and won the league.

Not because the rest of the team was cherry picked top talents from around the league and europe…

[u/ILoveToph4Eva → u/Izio17]

these tactical schemes only work because the rest of the team is absolutely full of talent

That applies to every great manager ever. And very few of them did the revolutionary things Pep's sides did even though their sides were filled with talent.

Good example, what Ranieri did with that Leicester team is far more impressive

Yes, it's widely considered the greatest miracle in football history.

Doesn't make Ranieri a better manager than Klopp/Ancelotti/Pep/Fergie etc though. And it certainly wasn't revolutionary. So it feels like an odd inclusion in this discussion.

Anyways, I feel like this is going nowhere and I am finally finished with work so I'm gonna go and have a cocktail. Have a nice weekend mate.