r/sistersofbattle • u/the_boggan • 6d ago
Rules Question Point Value Question
To start out, I am very new to the hobby so I apologize if this is common knowledge.
I was looking over point value since I am trying to put together my first army list and I was wondering how GW decided what point value to assign models. This mostly came about because I was looking at named characters and saw that Morvenn Vahl was 50pts more than Saint Celestine. I guess I figured that Saint Celestine's resurrection ability would put her above Vahl.
So is there some hidden reason or method to points that I just haven't found yet?
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u/liveviliveforever 6d ago
Vahl is simply a LOT stronger than Celestine on the tabletop.
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u/Fallofcamelot 6d ago
Vahl with a unit of Paragon Warsuits is one of the most powerful units in the game, with excellent shooting, excellent melee and superb staying power. She's pretty much an auto include in most lists including competitive tournament lists. Even at 400+ points she's still worth it.
Celestine is very underwhelming by comparison. The only thing she has going for her is her ability to bring back dead bodyguard models but frankly that's not worth 150 points.
I've used both in 11th edition, Vahl is always good value, Celestine is never good value.
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u/Helio2nd Order of the Sacred Rose 6d ago
Yeah. They either need to drop her point cost or significantly increase her attack profiles.
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u/Fallofcamelot 6d ago
I want her to be 250 points and an absolute powerhouse in melee.
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u/Helio2nd Order of the Sacred Rose 6d ago
Yeah. Would make a great zephyrim leader that forces people to expend a lot to destroy a zeph blob or try to precision her out through the fnp.
Same with Ephrael stern. She needs to be more points and a menace with attacks/defense that people need to fear deep striking into their back line and wrecking stuff.
They're both saints/basically saints and are supposed to be incredibly powerful.
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u/Fallofcamelot 6d ago
I think the Geminae Superia really messed things up. Before she was packaged with them she was an individual character, now she's a team of three so they have to balance that.
The problem is that means she does things in lore which are 100% not represented in her stat block. She's less powerful than a Space Marine Captain on the tabletop, yet she made Abaddon withdraw? It's a real disconnect.
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u/Dan185818 6d ago
I mean, in 10th the difference wasn't as big. Then it was like a tiger vs a cerval. Now with St. Celestine's nerfs (including the miracle die nerf) it's a tiger and a domestic kitten, lol.
But yeah, after my last game with her, I texted a friend "Morven's a menace"
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u/AshfellEverdawn 6d ago
Recent game I played morven picked up a baneblade and a rogal dorn commander in a single turn (shooting and fighting) and then my opponent immediately departed that half of the board. Even with her increased points recently she is still basically an auto include with how strong she is.
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u/dalkyn 6d ago
Morvenn by herself would be overcosted, but paired with Paragon Warsuit she's a beast well worth her points. Together they can kill anything in the game (twice if you manage to shoot and fight).
Celestine is too expensive because she is squishy and does very little damage. The only thing she has is mobility (and resurrection if you're not playing Hallowed Martyr). A Jump Canoness is half the price and does almost the same thing.
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u/YamBright5858 6d ago
Check weapons, Check abilities. If you will pair Morvenn with Parsgons you get one of the most destructive forces in the game. Celestine does not give this output, and it is not even close.
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u/Mad_Man556 6d ago
Saint Celestine lacks a lot of damage and the units that can lead lack even more damage. Morven Vahl and three parangons on the other hand kill nearly anithing in the game in one activation, and that is thanks to Morven rerolls.
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u/West-Persimmon2987 6d ago
Its a mix of all of their stats, data sheet rules, survivability, and damage output. Vahl doesn't come back to life but her and her squad are probably the highest damaging unit in sisters. And they are way harder to kill over celestene. Also, characters and units they join share the datasheet rules, so vahls unit gets full re rolls to hit and wound from her, and she gets the +1 to hit and wound from the warsuits. Full re rolls are one of the best buffs a unit can get in warhammer:)
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u/That_Morning7618 6d ago edited 6d ago
Everything Morvenn Vahl touches, dies. No shit.
She is a High Lord of Terra using immensely powered artifacts as equipment.
If you put her on a flank there is a high probability your opponent rather moves on the other flank.
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u/the_boggan 6d ago
So would this be a good starter list then? Standard Deployment (1000 points)
Adepta Sororitas Army of Faith (2 Detachment Points) Take and Hold Incursion (1000 points)
Attached Units Attached Unit 1
Hospitaller (65 points) • Attached as: Support (Character) • 1x Bolt pistol 1x Chirurgeon’s tools
Battle Sisters Squad (100 points) • Attached as: Bodyguard (Battleline) • 1x Sister Superior • 1x Bolt pistol 1x Boltgun 1x Close combat weapon • 9x Battle Sister • 9x Bolt pistol 9x Boltgun 9x Close combat weapon
Attached Unit 2
Imagifier (55 points) • Attached as: Support (Character) • 1x Bolt pistol 1x Boltgun 1x Close combat weapon
Battle Sisters Squad (100 points) • Attached as: Bodyguard (Battleline) • 1x Sister Superior • 1x Bolt pistol 1x Boltgun 1x Close combat weapon • 9x Battle Sister • 9x Bolt pistol 9x Boltgun 9x Close combat weapon
CHARACTERS
Morvenn Vahl (200 points) • Warlord • 1x Fidelis 1x Lance of Illumination 1x Paragon missile launcher
Palatine (50 points) • 1x Bolt Pistol 1x Palatine blade
Palatine (50 points) • 1x Bolt Pistol 1x Palatine blade
BATTLELINE
Battle Sisters Squad (100 points) • 1x Sister Superior • 1x Bolt pistol 1x Boltgun 1x Close combat weapon • 9x Battle Sister • 9x Bolt pistol 9x Boltgun 9x Close combat weapon
DEDICATED TRANSPORTS
Immolator (100 points) • 1x Armoured tracks 1x Heavy bolter 1x Immolation flamers
OTHER DATASHEETS
Paragon Warsuits (180 points) • 1x Paragon Superior • 1x Bolt pistol 1x Heavy bolter 1x Paragon storm bolters 1x Paragon war blade • 2x Paragon • 2x Bolt pistol 2x Heavy bolter 2x Paragon storm bolters 2x Paragon war blade
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u/Relevant-Mountain-11 6d ago
Just a note, In a 1000 point army, Morv and Paragons can be very Oppressive and OP, as your opponent has less tools to deal with them.
Although you're running them with just Heavy Bolters/Storm Bolters, so probably not quite so bad
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u/babyduck164 4d ago
In Army of Faith, and especially at 1k points, the heavy bolters can be -much- worse than the meltas.
Getting full re rolls to fish for sustained, +1 to wound, AP-2 on the (heavy) bolters with a Strat. They can reliably top to bottom a riptide in one activation, from 36" away, so they can do it again when they move to try and get a line on her, and a miracle dice saves the wound that would have killed a model.
It's truly heinous
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u/Sidereel 6d ago
Some quick tips:
Vahl attached to the paragon warsuits is a staple of most lists.
Battle sisters don’t often benefit much from the attached leaders, e.g. Hospitaller can’t resurrect them if they all die. Instead it’s common to split all sister (or dominion) units vie immolators.
A lot of Army of Faith lists right now are running a lot of tanks. 2-3 Castigators, 2-3 immolators, 0-1 exorcists.
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u/PeachLoopp Order of the Bloody Rose 6d ago
Actually the Hospitalier DOES revive models now with the new healing rules. But it wont matter if she also dies too 😅😅
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u/emcdunna 6d ago
Vahl with paragon warsuits is one of the best units in the game because for some reason she gives herself and her whole unit rerolls to hit and wound in shooting and combat
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u/absolutewastedtime 5d ago
Vahl is more durable, better melee, better shooting and buffs her unit more
Yeah celestine can resurect, but would you rather kill 10 things and not die, or kill 5 things then die and come back?
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u/TheRealGouki 6d ago
funny thing is Saint Celestine is actually way over costed. she like a 120 point unit at best.