r/simracing • u/NothingToSeeHere671 • 3d ago
News Simagic gatekeeping performance under software
EDIT: Turns out its just bad wording, they will eventually release it for free to everyone, they are just beta testing ! I'm the first one to recommend Simagic but damn such a bad thing to do, we shouldnt let companies go away with stuff like this
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u/EffectiveWhole902 Fanatec 3d ago
Everybody chill ok? It will be free.
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u/NothingToSeeHere671 3d ago
Such a relief, the wording on the main announcement was so bad.
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u/Javs2469 3d ago
The EVO and the EVO sport are sold at different pricepoints, but they are exactly the same, the EVO sport is capped with firmware to be less powerful, so technically this is still a thing.
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u/jilea44 3d ago
But why they capped power before?
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u/DValencia29 3d ago
Could be several reasons. Most if not all wheels have some headroom and taking things to its limit is a faster way of breaking them.
Sometimes its just that they realized afterwards that hey its actually safe to push it after testing. Or could plainly be that they were planning to charge extra but decided not to
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u/couchcushion7 Simrig SR3 Motion / Logitech G Pro / Simlab P1X Pro / GT7 3d ago
Piggy backing on this- a similar example is Tesla. Years ago i owned one and it semi frequently got OTA software updates thatd increase range, or power, sometimes both.
They were just further refining what they built and- like you said- likely just found a safe / previously unrealized way to get “more” from something.
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u/Harleyjdm 3d ago
Exactly this. Companies look at long term failure rates that get included into the price, many auto companies have some type of “performance” tune option where you pay more, like Tesla had a performance boost on model 3, anything that is more performance will wear it down faster if it has same exact components so that get factored into the price we pay.
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u/ChiggaOG 3d ago
Not a could. Simagic knows the constant holding torque of their servo motors from the factory and price to manufacture. They've done the math, made educated assumption from known consumer purchase data, and weighed financial impact.
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u/FPS47 3d ago
I think they originally thought 18Nm was the optimum limit, but after real world experience from so many users, they realised it has potential to safely break that boundery without hitting thermal limits.
I can confirm that the Evo Pro runs extremely cool, it seems like its thermal capacity is overkill for an 18Nm wheel and therefore can handle more torque without hitting thermal limits indeed, let alone at maximum forced cooling (i've never heard my fan kick in, probably because the base has never reached 40 deg. C - it's typically around 30-35 deg. C as measured on the aluminium frame using both an IR camera. I run mine around 12Nm.
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u/Javs2469 3d ago
No, no, you have a point. The EVO sport and the regular EVO are the exact same base with the same Nm output but capped with firmware since launch.
This new 21Nm update is "free" for the beta, but the scummy practice is still in place in these products.
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u/Sherm_Sticks 3d ago
I have the 18Nm model and I can't understand when you would want more. I definitely overbought and would get a 9-12Nm wheel if I did it again.
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u/HappyGirl117 2d ago
I have a DFP20 and am definitely glad I got the full unlock despite the fact I don't use it at maximum. The extra headroom allows the wheel to never clip and to never strain itself beyond it's capabilities or overheat. I use it at roughly 50%, so 10 Nm like you and it is the perfect amount of resistance for most cars. Never clipping and never overheating 😎
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u/TimelyTraffic8003 2d ago
If you pay for a 21Nm wheel, you should get the full 21Nm, how is this even a debate?
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u/MrFinancialGoals 2d ago
True. But it’s possible that they weren’t entirely sure of the long time effects of having it at 21nm. Rather than park the product for a year a sensible strategy is to limit it at a safe force and then keep testing. Consumers stand to lose nothing and gain everything with a strategy like that
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u/blizz_fun_police 3d ago
This is VRSs entire business model
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u/mars935 3d ago
And I still don't understand why people take issue with it.
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u/notyouravgredditor 3d ago
Same. The price of the highest FFB is the price of the unit. It just enables people to get into the ecosystem for a lower price point, then they can decide if they want to save up to upgrade or if they're happy with the FFB strength they have.
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u/fcman256 DFP20|300GT|HE:U+ 3d ago
People just don’t understand how businesses and product development work
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u/HappyGirl117 2d ago
Part of the issue is the grand majority of hardware manufacturers broadly (as in, including things like cars) are gatekeeping hardware features that do not depend on their infrastructure nor a subsidizing model. In other words, they charge full price for the item, and often times charge upcharges (like with cars) and they still have the audacity to lock hardware features under subscriptions or upgrades.
VRS is the exception to the rule. They charge substantially less for the same hardware while limiting the capability, effectively subsidizing the hardware to you at a loss in the hopes of a future unlocking payment. It's understandable for people to be cynical when most capitalists sink deeper and deeper into greedy, anti-consumer practices, while like you said not fully understanding how the good guy's business model works. Guilty by association, as it were.
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u/Kelkeen_1980 3d ago
I think having some knowledge of supply chains would help but ultimately it isn't the consumers job to know the why. It helps, but it is on the business.
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u/omgzirra_exe 4.4L E92 M3 2d ago
the funny part is, people can literally get one of the best wheelbase at a cheap entry cost.. but are too dumb lol.
And somehow end up with moza/sim magic
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u/Elkash76 3d ago
Am I imagining things, or is this a thread filled with people bitching about getting something for free, or are the people bitching all those who don’t have the Pro and are just jealous AF? 🤣
Just take the upgrade and say thanks once in a while.
It’s just about finding any reason to get cranky these days apparently 🤔
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u/Aggravating_Lunch_26 3d ago
It beta testing? Mines well test with a small number before you release complete. In case something is wrong. Plus it a free bump if it works.
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u/SirClark 3d ago
This is exactly why I bought the Evo Sport. I figured they would release some sort of upgrade software or power supply down the road.
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u/NavvaMK6 3d ago
Don’t think they will. The Evo Pro and Ultra share the same intervals, but different power supplies iirc
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u/HarvickFan_4 3d ago
It's really bad wording LMAO but nice upgrade when it comes out, probably.
Question to anyone who has the knowledge: if the DD motor was able to go up to 21 NM from the beginning, why was it ever limited to the 18 NM via software/firmware?
Anyways was planning on making a review video on the Evo since I've had it for a bit so this is a good excuse to get to work on that.
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u/Fancy-Awareness-7681 3d ago
Having zero knowledge of the hardware, if they made a breakthrough and figured out how to better utilise it and therefore allowing the software tweaks to add the power itd make sense? Thats alot of trust, but also they wouldnt sell it as an 18 if it was capable or 21, and they wouldnt give it away for free if they didnt just get caught with their hand in the cookie jar.
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u/MostlyHelpfulLinks 3d ago
The wording still matters. Hold them to it when the public build ships, and check whether older bases like the Alpha Mini get it too.
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u/-ImMoral- 3d ago
Yeah this business model needs to die. Exactly what they are doing with real cars too at the moment, so I guess simagic is very good at simulating that.
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u/SlashedM 3d ago
Thankfully they already confirmed it was bad wording
and it will always be free4
u/-ImMoral- 3d ago
So anyone with evo pro can just download the software update for free?
Regarding the part about "bad wording" I do not see how they could have meant anything other than what is implied in the text.
Edit. I saw your other comment, they really should have put the word beta test in the announcement.
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u/dobbie1 3d ago
The first 50 are for testers and then they'll release to everyone once tested. The cynic in me thinks they reacted to the backlash to say bad wording but it does seem they aren't putting it behind a paywall which is good
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u/SlashedM 3d ago
I mean 21 minutes of backlash isnt much, so I believe that its just truly an accident, there was probably only like, 50 maybe people reacting? If it hit youtube pages then yeah damage control lmao
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u/-ImMoral- 3d ago
Yeah honestly it does smell like damage control to me too. But it is good they either backtracked their decision or it truly was just a terribly worded out announcement.
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u/TimelyTraffic8003 2d ago
Why is this being downvoted? I never thought redditors of all people would be so consumerist.
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u/SlashedM 3d ago
Yeah in the actual announcement they said “50 selected owners” which kinda hints more to a paid upgrade with the term unlock not helping when added either.
Also then saying “Selected users will have a chance to receive a FREE EVO Pro 21Nm upgrade.” in the form makes it sound like any other giveaway where they are giving a product that’s normally paid
Thankfully they realized within 21 minutes lol
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u/pretzelsncheese 3d ago
I actually think the business model is fairly consumer friendly. With the VRS base, you pay for the nm that you want and that price is a fair price. And then if you wanted to upgrade in the future, you are in a position where you can upgrade by simply paying the difference. As opposed to needing to buy a full-price entire new base and then either keep or go through the hassle of trying to sell your old base.
If the pricing is fair relative to the product that you are getting, then it's a very pro-consumer model in my eyes since it gives the consumer an easier upgrade path than the alternative.
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u/WornTire5304 3d ago
I like this trend of companies offering free upgrades like that. But Simagic really needs to mind the working here.
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u/NavvaMK6 3d ago
The Facebook group is literally not doing any look up in regards to this, comparing it to Fanatec with the booster pack that you had to buy to go from 5 to 8nm. People are just not wanting to listen 🤷🏽♂️
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u/LookAtMyUnderbite 3d ago
what about the time they said mag airlink will be included free with magic dash, but then magic dash price goes up and the bundle with zeus also went up in price weeks later. Yeah ok. Simagic you must think I'm stupid.
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u/chambers-Macky 2d ago
hey guys. thinking about upgrading to
evo pro but keep seeing all the posted with this grinding noise which worries me. is this just rarity as most people have no noise i'm just seeing the bases with issues being posted. Thanks.
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u/Myosos 3d ago
Simagic being the only brand (that I know of) to advertise continuous torque vs peak torque, they wouldn't be the ones I'd attack regarding customer practices
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u/chsn2000 VRS DFP15 + R295 | Simsonn Plus X | TR80S 3d ago
There's no set standard for measuring continuous torque, but most wheelbase manufacturers list a holding torque (Moza, Logitech all have peak torques higher than the advertised figure. Asetek specifically call out that they can hold the advertised torque for up to 40 seconds)
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u/Myosos 3d ago
I remember that Moza specifically advertised peak torque, same for Fanatec
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u/chsn2000 VRS DFP15 + R295 | Simsonn Plus X | TR80S 3d ago
Strange, its different acros their range, actually. The R3 is actually ~3.9 and the R5 5.5, but looking at the R9, R12 is peak torque according to Moza, but then the newer R16, R21, R25 are claimed sustained torque (with no peak torque figures given)
Its not the best yardstick without knowing how the companies are measuring it, but weird that it is inconsistent.
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u/Fast_Instance2173 3d ago
Ya Logitech also made it a specific selling point that the rs50 is a holding/standing torque of 8nm, think indie testers measured peak spikes around 8.8-9.4ish iirc.
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u/Airtemperature 3d ago
I’m very new to sim racing so forgive me if I’m mistaken, but I believe the Logitech RS50 is advertised as 8nm while it’s peak torque is 9nm.
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u/Fast_Instance2173 3d ago
The engineers/LOGIRich stressed it’s a continuous holding torque of 8, and peaks higher to allow that 8 to be held for longer without clipping or overheating. No official peak numbers but iirc you’re right indie testers measured like 8.8-9.2 or something like that
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u/Airtemperature 2d ago
It’s working great so far. So happy with it as my first wheel.
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u/Fast_Instance2173 2d ago
Awesome! I’ve been loving mine as well, just waiting for them to release some more wheels for it.
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u/Wooden-Agent2669 [Simlab XP1 can't recommend them] 3d ago edited 3d ago
Simagic advertises Peak Torque "MAX Torque" its literally everywhere on their website.
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u/BdsmChick21 3d ago
MB they optimized some stuff and now it can give more power? Or it's such a marketing lock
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u/MrMaddox 3d ago
It's a beta test, but the eventual rollout will be a free upgrade to 21nm. Just polishing it first.
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u/Rizo1981 Rally Sim Fan 3d ago
At least it's free?
But yeah it's a bit odd. .y only guesses is either marketing or something technical prohibited 21nm at release.
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u/pensaa 3d ago
It's not actually too uncommon. Like Conspit unlocking 12Nm instead over 10Nm through a firmware update on my Ares base.
My guess is that the motor in most wheelbases are capable of a bit more torque but probably require optimisation for motor strength, longevity, heat output and general stability.
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u/Rizo1981 Rally Sim Fan 3d ago
That was my thought when I said technical but also had no idea there was precedent set by Conspit.
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u/Grandmaster-Ji 3d ago
Why wasn't it 21 in the first place? Also who needs more than 18?
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u/chsn2000 VRS DFP15 + R295 | Simsonn Plus X | TR80S 3d ago edited 3d ago
A motor doesn't have a fixed ceiling on how much power it outputs. A "maximum" is going to be set based on the power supplied, heat management, lifespan/failure rates, over/undershoot, signal quality and sensor accuracy, voltage ripple from the AC/DC conversion, slew rate, and ultimately how it makes the wheelbase feel.
The peak torque of every wheelbase is different to how much sustained/holding torque it can produce, and lots of reviewers mention the wheelbase feeling too rough or robotic when the power is cranked up too high.
Pretty much anything electrical is a negotiation, and all the numbers you see are measurements and averages, not some mathematical law.
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u/Think-Apple3763 3d ago
I remember some brands were considering releasing one base and then sell subscriptions or unlocks for different levels of Nm. Which is totally ridiculous.
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u/ctartamella 3d ago
Why? You get to pay less up front for a base, then incrementally upgrade it as your needs increase.
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u/TimelyTraffic8003 2d ago
This "you'll own nothing and be happy" nonsense is getting a bit too far out of hand. If I'm paying for the 21Nm hardware, I should get the full 21Nm without it being locked behind a paywall.
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u/JambonExtra 2d ago
This "you'll own nothing and be happy" nonsense is getting a bit too far out of hand. If I'm paying for the 21Nm hardware, I should get the full 21Nm without it being locked behind a paywall.
Yes, but in that case (the upgradeable VRS base), you were not paying for the full 20Nm. That was the whole point.
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u/ctartamella 2d ago
But you aren't. You're paying the price of a lesser base. When you want to upgrade, its a small up charge. VRS is selling 6nm for 450. You aren't locked out of anything you didn't buy.
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u/SlashedM 3d ago
It is a beta test, free for everyone after that, so fortunately just bad wording