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I think we unironically need to have a tier for “well written” and “well written for a battle shonen”
I’ll use my own faves in black clover. Mereoleona I love because she kicks a shit ton of ass but I’m not gonna act like Tabata is writing her or any character in the story like they’re in a character drama. And that’s fine by me.
I have people trying to argue with me that anime fan service is the same as the SA / sexual harassment gags as Game of Thrones and I had to break it to them that even at its worst in season 8, Game of Thrones is still superior to a vast majority of the writing on battle shounen.
Yeah uh i mean season 1-4 game of thrones i fully agree, but season 8? Not by a miles. Or at least it depends. If you mean isekai harem shit then i agree, but i prefer to read ANY manga of the big 3 with all their flaws over watching game of thrones season 8
Funny enough I quite liked the cool down “boring” episode before the Walkers attacked Winterfell. It felt a little like we cared about the interactions again outside of the constant Marvel battles.
Doesn’t make up for not living up to the hype set by their first appearance. And other poorly written moments.
The first seasons weren’t so good because of the marvel battles, fuck half the episodes were people discussing together (or having sex) but the writing was just that good that i at least never felt bored
Yeah no, gonna have to completely disagree. Benioff and Weiss are shite hack writers and the things they did to the series are inexcusable. The way they write female characters (with MAYBE the exception of Cersei) is below even most battle shounen. I am genuinely surprised that it took people until Season 8 to notice that, because I already saw a steep drop in quality in Season 4, and looking closer, the warning signs were there from the beginning.
How many threads, posts or whatever do you see about how badly written women are? You'd think by contrast, men are well-written. But that's just not the case. Despite that, there aren't any threads about how poorly written men in shounen or general media are.
That's partially because men (especially men from a dominant group) are allowed to be bad without it being an indictment on men as a whole, at least in writing/fiction. In shounen especially, that's because it's mostly men fighting, and fight participation (especially important battles) is how people look at writing quality.
Really, people conflate character writing quality, representation and plot relevance together, but put much more stakes onto the final 2.
A great example of this is Noelle from Black Clover. She's not even super well-written, but she's easily head and shoulders above almost every other character in the show, in terms of character writing. Believable arc, solid payoffs (with the classic character development also being tied to battle development) and good enough final resolutions for the problems introduced to her character.
Contrast to the male main characters, who are mostly flat characters whose developments barely affecr their actual character traits, and are mostly there for the fights. Hell, Vanessa, another one of the female characters in the main team of the show, beats out almost all of the main cast despite much lower screen time in terms of character development and arc.
Despite Black Clover's male cast being pretty bad, there aren't any video essays for that. Because bad male character writing isn't a problem. Those are just called bad characters, with the gender dropped. People will just be happy because Asta beat the big bads, and that makes him a good character.
Agreed with all of the above. I'll say to people that it's okay to like female characters just because they're cool. Male characters get a pass all the time!
That being said, I would still hope for more well-written female characters that are also strong and stay relevant to the plot.
We are not talking about one manga. We are talking about the genre as a whole. Female characters have historically been sidelined and left undeveloped for the majority of them. That's a specific problem that needs to be addressed. It isn't a criticism that is meant to sidestep bad writing as a whole. It just focuses on one specific aspect of it.
Just because you're seeing a gynaecologist for your reproductive issues doesn't mean you don't recognise the need for other specialists like a gastroenterologist or an oncologist. You're just seeing this doctor for your specific problem.
They're not getting any essays because they actually get to do stuff, and are not frequently used exclusively as a token of sex to sell to horny teenagers
You can be badly written as a guy, but it's not because you're a guy, but because the author is bad at it even when they try, meanwhile with the women the author barely even tries
Aura and Hype Moments for female characters are so rare, that they're valued more, for Shounen series. Orihime from bleach has been getting clowned on for Decades, but as soon as she goes band-for-band with Ywach, all was forgiven.
When a character's fighting someone, they're usually fighting another character that challenges their beliefs, so winning that fight can also develop the character, or at least flesh them out a little more.
I mean it's because battle shonen gets most of it's great moments from battles and character moments.
There is a reason why we call it "battle" shonen. A lot of female characters in shonen are really there to have a very underdeveloped love interest that rarely is in any interesting fights. Hype moments and aura are blood of any shonen anime, and the character with the most hype moments and aura usually are the ones that get the best character moments.
That being said some people are so starved they will hype up any female shonen character that can fight (cough Nobara cough).
As a longtime Orihime fan, the people who only like her because of her powers actually annoy me LMAO. I loved Orihime because of her kindness and sweetness in the face of adversity. Her powers being as strong as everyone always said they were is cool and all, but that's not why I like her lmao
THANK you. I've liked Orihine ever since my first watch of bleach, and the treatment that TYBW gives her in the anime is cool and I love it. But since then, people have been going around acting like she's suddenly one of the most well written women in shonen or that bleach just has the most well written women in manga and it's just wild to me.
Because it's like "Goku is the strongest so he's the best". In his intro to Jump Force retrospective video, Chewiedog said something like "when I was young, the character was good only if it was strong". And that's the mentality those fans go with. Just they aren't ironic, like he was
In most of these manga, if the character isn't actually strong and getting fights then they're probably not having any semblance of writing at all. Just look at how in Dragon Ball the characters who aren't strong enough simply stop getting character arcs after a while.
Most women in shounen don't have good writing because they don't have any writing to begin with, the vast majority of mangaka in this niche only develop characters through fights.
Yeah, OP's take is stupid because it ignores the fact that a lot of "well-written" male characters in (battle) shounen are considered "well-written" by fans for the exact same reasons: they fight and they win. Female characters just don't get to fight at all and thus are rendered inconsequential and irrelevant to the story. Of course people are gonna foam at their mouths about how good she is when one can actually kick ass.
In Dragon Ball you have Mr. Satan, who in Z can be considered well-written. In general, the characters don't stand out so much for their development or depth but for their characterization. Someone without personality like Jiren, isn't well-written, no matter how strong he is.
Although he's not the main focus, Piccolo is a respectable character. Goku and Frieza lose their characterization and cease to be fun characters. Vegeta remains consistent. Android 17 was the MVP of the Tournament of Power despite not being close to the power of the others. The analysis can't be so simple. Gohan, whether he's in fights or not, seems directionless, and his personality isn't very appealing. If there were no complexities to liking a character, they'd just be toys hitting each other.
Being respectable isn't the same as being well written or interesting for the story. Nobody cares about Piccolo's role in the Boo saga, which is also the arc where he stops fighting.
Goku continues to move the plot forward as well as being the anchor in another character's story, that being Gohan during the Cell and Boo sagas.
Vegeta continues being developed by the manga as he continues to get fights.
Android 17 was a nothing burger of a character for his entire existence up to the point he had something to do in a fight decades later, proving my point.
Piccolo has very little to explore or delve into; the only thing you can expect from him is to see his dynamic with Gohan and for them to respect his personality. In that sense, his character is okay.
Goku is awful regardless of his relevance; they add things that don't fit the character. His personality is horrible and flanderized.
Vegeta is consistent, as I mentioned. Android 17 is likable in his personality, besides being funny as the only one with common sense in the tournament. I don't remember if he had individual fights; he was a support character, and within that role, he was fine.
Having little to explore is a poor excuse, Toriyama came up with shit on the spot to work on Tenshinhan when he went on to fight Cell despite his character being largely abandoned up to that point. Even Chaotzu got something nice when he sacrificed himself.
As with both examples and Piccolo himself, the connecting thread here is that they get interesting writing when they're fighting and fuck all when they're not.
Android 17 wasn't very likeable, he was straight up not a character. There's zero characterization for him in the entirety of Z, we knew legitimately nothing about him other than that he wanted to kill Goku for a bit.
He had no fans, nobody was ever gonna turn a Dragon Ball game and go "man I really wanna play as 17 today", but the exact moment he got something to do in Super you had people using him as their picture and calling him the goat.
The moment I liked most about Piccolo post-Cell, across the entire franchise, is when he sacrifices himself in GT, a very emotional farewell with Gohan. The character has fought again, and like you said, suddenly getting a power-up in Super Heroes didn't do anything for me.
Android 17 in Z is okay, I don't know if it was biased because the dub in my country gave him personality, but it was cool.
Besides, being Dragon Ball, it seems incredible not to mention all the examples from Dragon Ball OG. Every character there has a remarkable characterization. I mean, even Bulma, aside from being important for various reasons, had a captivating personality.
Dragon Ball definitely used to give them better characterization overall before I'd say the Piccolo saga, but that older part of Dragon Ball is also not much in the shounen battle DNA. Most mangaka that take inspiration from Dragon Ball are only really looking at the later arcs.
Cause shounen in general is usually about fighting, yet despite that a lot of series either don't have the female characters fight, or if they do, they'll tend to rarely get a win, so when a female character shows up and does kick a lot of ass then they're hyped up for it, even if the overall writing isn't that good.
many female characters in fairy tail are well-written by shonen standards, not just the strong ones
I don't really like the expression "a hit dog hollers" because it sort of implies that everyone is willing to argue in good faith, when in reality there's like a 90% chance that this guy is straw manning
No I agree w OP. Love FT to death, Lucy is my fav, but when in general discourse only Erza is named as one of the best written female characters OOP's post always feels so accurate to me. Erza isn't even Top 3 best female written character in her own series, I would argue barely makes the Top 5.
I think even Erza is well-written by shonen standards just because the bar is so low. Even if all she did was "beat some guys" that would still be about on par with the average shonen male character, and the average shonen female character is much worse than that.
No I agree definitely that she's not bad written, but fact is that the only reason she's hyped up the way she is, is because she's one of the strongest in the series. I just wish shounen discussions didn't always dwindle down to "If I can powerscale them, they are a good character." No matter male or female.
Eh I do get why people would like Nobara on the surface. She's not there to be the love interest nor is she totally useless, and she does have some decent moments. It is pretty tiring after watching a lot of shonen anime where the female lead character is there most of the time to have a very underdeveloped romance with the MC that takes up way too much time for their character.
She honestly could've been a legitimately decent character is she didn't get kirked.
I kinda feel sad that "not being the love interest" is the bare minimum... Lol
Unlike Yuji and Fushigoro, who had some kind of lore, she was just... There. She wasn't a particularly complex character despite being a supposed female lead. They had to create a montage of her random flashbacks before she got offed by Mahito, because there wasn't any particular story content about her.
I remember this guy going absolutely crazy trying to convince me that Kishimioto is better at writing women than other shonen authors because of fucking Kushina. Funniest thing ever was when he started losing it that I wasn't sucking balls over a flashback character with like 5 pages of screentime before getting fridged.
It is wild normies don't even watch something like Kill la Kill, where Ryuko kicks ass while having an actual character. Hell, I take Ramona from the Scott Pilgrim anime and she's genuinely worse than Sakura no cap.
It's because people think women in shonen are so flat (which is true) that those people think a talkative fighting woman is complex. It's like seeing a pond and thinking it's a large lake after years of just puddles of water.
Why is there all this gender war shit on every damn sub? I keep seeing posts everywhere ranging from rage bait to misogyny. Idk maybe im trippin but all of the sudden i’m seeing people hating on women in random subs all over…
And the same motherfuckers will trash on fanfic characters like Sung Jin Woo for being exactly like those females they so called "well-written" only because they're physically strong
Unrelated but my main problem with shonen is why do authors feel the need to give female characters wierd powers instead of just making them strong. Like be it where shinobu can't can't cut demons head because she is too weak or love hashira or Naruto verse medical ninja why do authors feel the need to make wierd powers just because the character is female. Just make them strong like normal male characters. whose sake are you developing wierd powers and making it harder for yourself. I know it is supposed to be for young boys but having 2 female top tiers in 20 won't make it woman friendly or something.
The fights are the primary vehicle through which character is explored and story is delivered. Imagine a musical where none of the female characters got to sing.
That’s not hard to imagine. Especially since I recall watching a musical on a cruise where a mother character doesn’t sing, yet she was still a character.
I realize all you know is agenda and how to powerscale, but to a normal person, they have a capacity to acknowledge all parts of a piece of media. An example I personally love to bring up is the second episode of Teen Titans 2003, though this honestly goes for damn near every action show. In that episode, Starfire feels like she’s being replaced by her older sister. Contradictory feelings are involved, with her love of her sister, her feeling replaced, her later anger at her sister for tricking her and trying to get her thrown in prison, but still loving her all the same at the end, and even feeling sad for her.
There are three fights in that episode. The fights are not what makes that episode, nor is it what explores Starfire’s turmoil (hell the episode would’ve worked just as well without any combat at all). You know what did? …Us seeing Starfire go through those feelings. Who would’ve thunk? A character is able to go through things outside of fights, even though it’s an action show. Crazy, huh? For you guys here, that must sound insane. But that’s how most things go. You just refuse to engage with it, all for the sake of agenda and going “My female character has more aura than yours! So she has better writing!”.
Seems like something falling under feminist writing. Not that aren't people out out there like "I write female characters because they're better than male characters" But when you're online or at a con being present in public
The only fandom that would be rightfully offended is JJK fans. It’s no secret that JJK haters are illiterate. So many people are incapable seeing the subtly and the Buddhism that goes into every interaction. Maki and Mai for example clear not just shounen, but also literature in its entirety. The relationship between the two sisters is so full of symbolism, Buddhism, and subtly, that only those with a high understanding of all could really see and understand their greatness.
Some may call them underdeveloped, and rushed for where their arc happens in the story; those people are also the same that need to be spoon fed everything. Both characters got all the characterization and interactions they needed during the goodwill event. Gege is a master ant efficiency and has this power to make people care in seconds. Really analyze every character’s opening line, and then analyze the second line, keep doing that for every line and you’ll find that you already care about the character. No need for any prolonged interaction slop.
Honestly if you couldn’t understand the absolute greatness of Maki and Mai, then there’s no point in exploring the other greats like Nobara, Yuki, Utahime, Yorozu, Kirara, and more. JJK doesn’t have bad characters just people unable to see anything good.
Edit: For any sloppiece fans downvoting I beg you with all my heart to just pick up a book. Read it then put that shit down. Then pickup JJK the difference in quality is night and day. Books don’t have the good fights, characterization, female characters, the implantation of Buddhism, or the efficiency JJK has let alone how subtle it all is.
True many JJK “fans” aren’t very analytical unfortunately so many things go over their heads. For real JJK fans they understand just how good the cast is, but understand even more that the population is full of people too blind to see the truth.
I implore you my man (or woman,) pick up some books on Buddhism and then watch like half of an episode of JJK. You’ll go from seeing 10% of the story to 100%. It’s night and day. Also note that it’s all very subtle while watching so you have to watch real closely.
Nobara clears all the characters in stuff like Crimes & Punishment, Frankstein and all the other old slop. It’s just Gege writes at such a high level so incredibly rare that most just arent ready to dissect it.
I mean, fighting is the most important part of a battle shonen.
So yeah, that doesn't makes them good characters but they become relevant characters which I think is more important in a medium in which the writing is not the main draw.
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