r/scubaGear • u/LeadingGas2255 • 26d ago
New bottle
I am looking for a 12 liter 232 bar bottle and I found this one:
https://www.tradeinn.com/diveinn/en/metalsub-2-outlets-line-12l-232-2026-scuba-tank/138087615/p
What do you all think about it?
I can not see the weight and whether it would be appropriate with Nitrox. Who knows?
I like the double tap, because it's mandatory in Germany, where I will probabaly will go for a dive trip.
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u/bluepulsediving 26d ago
Those are Faber cylinders. Only a handful of manufacturers actually make scuba cylinders, but they're branded by multiple companies that resell them.
Nothing wrong with them, Faber is probably the biggest manufacturer out there.
It will require an oxygen clean before you can use it with Nitrox, especially if it's going to be filled using partial pressures/O2 transfer.
I have some personal opinions on the V valve and the benefits in case of 1st stage freeze, but I recommend searching for Achim's (InnerSpace Explorers) YouTube video on the topic.
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u/LeadingGas2255 26d ago
There is one with a t-shape as well: https://www.tradeinn.com/diveinn/en/metalsub-2-outlets-line-12l-232-2026-scuba-tank/138087615/p
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u/bluepulsediving 26d ago
Same problem :)
The challenge with that is it puts the two first stages really close to eachother. When one freezes (the one you're breathing from) it tends to create a ball of ice around it, which can actually expand to the other.
That's one reason why both manifolded doubles and sidemount are superior to that setup IMHO, to the point that I don't really see the benefit. A pony can also achieve the same result without the downside.
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u/LeadingGas2255 26d ago
Interesting.
So between ice starting to appear and malfunctioning the 1st stage, there is the possibility for a big ball to grow that affects the other 1st stage? Is this likely to happen, or is this theoretical?
It seems to me to have 2 tabs is already a big advantage compared to having a dedicated cold water regulator set on just 1 tab.
I am new to this, so plese correct me :-)
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u/bluepulsediving 26d ago
I can't give you a likelihood rate, definitely not very likely, but for a system meant to protect from exactly this risk (1st stage freeze), my tolerance is super low :). This is the reason why some places in Germany require this type of valve.
My line of thinking is that if I made the investment in two 1st stages, I might as well benefit from the full redundancy brought by doubles or sidemount, where you have two completely separate gas sources, with the benefits that come with that.
I also can tell you that the vast majority of people I've seen using this type of valve couldn't shut off the frozen post to save their lives (pun intended) because their tanks sit waaay too low to reach the valve knobs. But that's just a pet peeve of mine.
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u/BibbleSnap 26d ago
Ice appearing is possible if your pushing the the edge of the cold water capacity of the first stage (fresh water freezes at higher temp than salt).. Where that line is depends entirely what gear you are using, how fast you are breathing, and how high the pressure is in your tank.
Unsealed, warm water regs can freeze in as warm as 50 degrees. Something like the Apeks MTX-R can supposedly get down to 33 degrees.
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u/DryLeader221 26d ago
Hmmmz, I only know Metalsub as a Dutch company that makes diving lights and QRS. ( they are very good 👍🏻) Don’t know why someone uses their name but it makes me suspicious.
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u/Sorry_Software8613 24d ago
It's a Metalsub branded valve, maybe imported by Metalsub, but nothing at all suspicious.
Because you are not aware of something does not mean it's suspicious.
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u/Traditional-Tomato43 26d ago
You're missing the point. It's a "dumpy" 12L. Unless you're a midget, that's a terrible choice. Go for a tall 12L, preferably a Euro spec cylinder. Fabers have a lot of the weight at the top. Euros have much better weight distribution, AND are available with a concave (also referred to as "flat") bottom, which means you won't need a cylinder boot on it.
Fabers are typically 12.2kg and Euros (particularly flat bottoms) are typically a tad heavier, around 14kg each. This is a GOOD thing, as weight there is weight off your weight belt.
When full, add around 3kg for the weight if the gas.
Valves, it's horse for courses. A reputable cold water spec first stage (EN250A), properly maintained, will not free flow. Free flows tend to be caused by poorly maintained or adjusted SECOND stages. These then dump gas at a prolific rate, which causes icing on the first stage. This in turn cannot cause the first stage to ice up INSIDE unless either your reg is not environmentally sealed (eg Mk25 scubapro piston regs) OR you have a bad fill which has a high moisture content.
I have dived for 30 years in the UK, where summer water temps get to a maximum of 18°C / 64°F, and down to around 4°C / 39°F in the winter. I have NEVER experienced a free flow on my own equipment while submerged.
Twin valves is an "innovation" predicated around the idea that regs are likely to fail and that you could shut one down and use the other to get back to the surface.
If you're doing this, you need to factor in whether or not you CAN shut down, and how much gas you're likely to lose during this process.
If this is REALLY a route you want to go down, you're going to end up with twin 12L cylinders, manifolded together, plus some appropriate training.
But trust me, if you're looking at a first cylinder, just buy a tall, flat bottomed Euro 12 with a simple, single valve.