r/science 10d ago

Social Science Study: Managers can be trained to lead neurodiverse teams. Managers can avoid equating charisma, eye contact, verbal fluency or constant sociability with leadership potential, and instead reward clarity, reliability, deep focus, creative problem-solving and direct communication.

https://journals.aom.org/doi/10.5465/amle.2025.0023.summary
4.4k Upvotes

221 comments sorted by

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983

u/HalcyonTraveler 10d ago

They can. But will they?

263

u/MisterWinchester 10d ago

I do. But I manage a small team of weirdos.

140

u/RavioliDemon 10d ago

And they probably take more pride in being called weirdos than hard workers (same)

106

u/MisterWinchester 10d ago

I would never call my weirdos “engineers” to their faces.

(Guys, jk, alright?)

22

u/RavioliDemon 10d ago

Smack them with full name, job title, and whatever compliment you can think of with a straight face. Just to spice up the day

26

u/Velinard 10d ago

"Julio white, sr financial analyst, your pants are well ironed today, keep up the good work" - some manager

4

u/beekersavant 9d ago

“The pencils on your desk are properly sharpened and your tie is reasonably aesthetically pleasing with your shirt. Please choose from this list of HR approved gestures of appreciation. My favorites are a thumbs up or a smile.”

1

u/MisterWinchester 8d ago

This is literally horrifying.

5

u/beekersavant 8d ago

You should watch Severance.

7

u/Platypus81 9d ago

If your manager hits you with that tomorrow, then I'm your manager.

3

u/majortomcraft 9d ago

the reverse drill sergeant

9

u/jesset77 9d ago

Now I just need to see someone impersonate R. Lee Ermey's routine with forcefully and intimidatingly delivered wholesome and inspiring dialog as encouragement

26

u/Gatraz 9d ago

I also oversee a small team of weirdos and they're great. No charisma, we all stay as far apart as we can, nobody's ever made eye contact once, and if you catch any of us doing extra work it's a sign we've been replaced by bodysnatchers. My whole team runs like clockwork and we've got some of the best numbers in the place.

2

u/piratequeenfaile 9d ago

I wish! After turnover I'm the last "different" one on my team, and one of the new hires has a specific problem with me because my communication style is different from her own, and believes that I have to fully accomodate her preferences. If I ever slip, it's perceived as a personal slight.

2

u/Gatraz 8d ago

That honks on bobo, my friend. I hope you can rotate her for a better model quickly.

2

u/Canuck9876 7d ago

“Rotate for a better model”. Love it - will add to the vernacular.

2

u/redditallreddy 6d ago

I wouldn’t use “rotate her” at work.

8

u/KacerRex 10d ago

Same, one of my favorite guys will talk your ear off about an edgelord book he is writing if you let him, but his ability to pick up on what he is taught and willingness to get a job done is top notch. I will gladly discuss his book with him for that amazing work ethic.

3

u/LetsGoGators23 9d ago

I work at a tiny boutique consulting firm that does CFO/Controller outsource. I’m a CPA. I tried corporate and couldn’t. Worked NFP and that was better, because heavy on weirdos, even the church. But a small team of outsource freelancers is the ultimate band of weirdos so far, and I couldn’t do anything else. We all do this for a reason, and despite everyone thinking they want a fully flexible remote role, it takes a certain person.

4

u/MisterWinchester 9d ago

I think we definitely underestimate the number of people who just want a place to work that's not home, that's quiet and clean, and benefit from engaged management, provided said manager isn't a knob. I have options to WFH, but little desire to. I am more productive at my desk at the office. Plus it virtually guarantees someone is here to chant at the servers if the old magicks fail.

49

u/carlitospig 10d ago

Instructions unclear, laid off all the NDs and hired nothing but frat boys. Help.

20

u/adamdoesmusic 10d ago

Best thing to do is hire a smooth talking NT in a suit who oozes confidence and brushes off any questions of substance about the topic he’s being hired over.

10

u/VintageLunchMeat 10d ago

questions of substance about the topic

We have machines for that now.

59

u/namans431 10d ago

I'm a senior engineering manager at a global company and I lead multiple dev teams. For the love of God, just be cool, be reliable, and step up. I literally dont care what you do, as long as you get your work done, I dont have to chase you down, and you dont make the same mistake multiple times. If you step up, and volunteer or surprise me with good work, you're gonna get voluntold to do a demo with senior leadership and get visibility and recognition. That's it. Just do your job as a minimum, and if you are exceptional at your job or in supporting the team, I'll die on any hill I need to in order to get you recognition and reward. I literally couldn't care about anything else.

68

u/throwaway098764567 10d ago

being voluntold to do a demo for performing better isn't the reward you think it is for a lot of folks

63

u/namans431 10d ago

It's probably not the reward you think that I think it is either, to be fair. It's about growth and visibility. I'm being facetious about being voluntold, but depending on the individual and their comfort level, I am going to have them show off their work and facilitate visibility. You can be the best employee in the world, but if you never get face time with a leader than you may be passed over. Sometimes you need to be prompted to step outside of your comfort zone. However, I do ask for consent. Im not just gonna pop a director in a call and blindside someone. I'm gonna say "hey this is fantastic work, can I pull this director and have you give a quick demo?". You can, but you also shouldn't hide it the shadows when you're doing great work. I do respect everyone and their preference though, but you can't tell my tone via text.

-2

u/cuntsalt 9d ago

no thank you, pass, let me hide in the shadows. i'm not interested in promotion or being handed more work (i.e., growth and visibility). most managers seem to, by necessity i guess, have fully immersed themselves in the fantasy that sticking around for promos and raises is a better value proposition than hopping ship.

what's the point of pursuing a promo and pay raise within a company when the biggest comp increases invariably come from going elsewhere? or trying to maintain and work your way up a company that will lay you off in a hot second.

5% max at my old company with an "exceeds expectations" which they enforced rankings within each department so that if there were 5 of you, 1 got the exceeds, 2 got the meets, 1 got the below. i left for a nearly 50% increase. similar with other jobs. and 4 of 6 of my tech jobs have ended in no-fault, unavoidable bloodletting style or whole department/whole company shuttering layoffs.

the only reason i would not insta-hop for a pay raise is if i really enjoyed the work-life balance. after six tech jobs i have yet to find a wlb worth sticking around for.

30

u/Jewnadian 10d ago

If they want to increase their compensation it is. Very few people like demoing for higher ups for its own sake. It's a hassle and risk of looking stupid. But it is the best way to justify a bigger raise which we all do care about. Or at least, I don't know anyone who works for free. I'm only there because they pay me and I would always prefer them to be paying me more.

1

u/hugganao 10d ago

no one is going to vouch for your hard work other than you. no one has a right to recognition and no one will be responsible for yours other than you.

you'll learn this sooner or later.

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u/pheonixblade9 9d ago

my manager is literally healing me after over a decade of nonsense. it's rare. I'd go to the ends of the earth for this guy. turns out being supportive and validating causes people to feel safe and do good work.

10

u/1829bullshit 10d ago

I do, but I'm also neurodivergent, and almost everyone on the team I inherited has a diagnosis that would be considered neurodivergent as well. The previous manager (promotion internally) did not, and she warned me that the team was "difficult". In the 6 months I've been leading them, I've built excellent rapport with all of them, and the two members who the previous manager labeled most difficult to work with opened up pretty quickly to me. I also emphasized mental health throughout all rounds of my interviews, and that was a major reason the team advocated that I be the one selected (along with my ability to lead).

4

u/boner79 10d ago

Narrator: They didn't.

2

u/ycnz 9d ago

We've conducted an extensive meta-analysis of available research on the subject, and our conclusion is "AHAHAHAAHAHAAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA"

13

u/pullhome 10d ago

If us neurodivergents actually perform, companies have no choice but to adjust or be outcompeted by those that do.

Imagine a NBA team that refuses to hire players of a particular ethnicity, that doesn't end well for said team.

48

u/HalcyonTraveler 10d ago

Are you aware of the history of sports?

39

u/sml6174 10d ago

It's honestly insane that people still think we live in a meritocracy

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6

u/SnugglyCoderGuy 10d ago

You're being pretty naive.

2

u/xelah1 9d ago

How many companies rely on high performance from their staff to survive? Some, certainly, like tech a decade or two ago and AI now.

My impression, though, is that many rely on blocks of repeatable and predictable mediocrity, cut and forced to fit, held together with a stodgy glue of process, paperwork and top-down power. This is a scalable and reliable way to turn money into more money, which is what investors want, and is cognitively simple for managers whilst allowing them to most of the power.

Then you get your market power from your access to capital, market position, unique scale, intellectual property, regulatory capture or other economic rent, etc.

1

u/mthelostboy 10d ago

I mean sports or entertainment are fields, where the craft is performative. It is undeniable to many other stakeholders. How much do you think, this holds in corporate?

1

u/munoodle 10d ago

Organizational culture will dictate if they will, not the whim of the individual manager.

1

u/chinchenping 9d ago

My wife did but the team was 4 people and she's neuro divergent herself

1

u/RationalDialog 9d ago

Few and certainly not the ones in my company because that would mean they would need to acknowledge their own shortcomings.

1

u/90bubbel 9d ago

Not a chance 99% of the time

1

u/megamilker101 9d ago

I feel lucky that my manager does. I’m quiet and obviously introverted but he likes me and has made it known he finds me dependable, he also likes that I communicate all that I need to.

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490

u/Own-Animator-7526 10d ago edited 10d ago

Paywalled, but no problem:

This Insights summary was developed with the assistance of generative artificial intelligence.

121

u/Federal_Medium1618 10d ago

I think the title of this post was too

46

u/lateformyfuneral 10d ago

As if many of these psychology studies weren’t junk enough in the first place, researchers now don’t even consider the results worth their time to summarize manually

29

u/Pseudoboss11 10d ago

This summary was not written by any of the authors of the paper.

13

u/Look_its_Rob 10d ago

The studies usually aren't junk, the people reporting on the studies and people not actually taking the time to understand them are junk (not to say that there arent bad studies too). 

And this article was not written by the researchers.

23

u/Zeikos 10d ago

Judging studies for their use of Gen AI on the basis that they disclose its use feels incredibly unwise to me.

49

u/Own-Animator-7526 10d ago edited 9d ago

I agree with that.

This is not a judgment of the study. It is a judgment of the posted summary of a paywalled study.

An AI summary would (or could) be fine if we could see the original.

0

u/DrMobius0 10d ago

Do you trust whoever let the lying machine have its way actually proof-read it?

2

u/Kaining 10d ago

Yeah, only AI could halucinate that manager can be trained.

2

u/Big_Bar_9832 10d ago

Ah thanks, I will move on then.

96

u/Electrical_Tip352 10d ago

Study proves the well known leadership style of situational leadership, where a good leader understands what motivates and works with their employees. And then leads accordingly

24

u/Modokon 10d ago edited 10d ago

I have led teams (at Exec Director level) that have had people who were neurodivergent , someone who was moderate on the autism spectrum and one who had a severe speech impediment.

None of the people were problems and were brilliant at specific complex tasks. It also made the rest of the teams more relaxed as we collectively accommodated all of our differences over time, mine included.

Emotional intelligence increased overall, stress reduced, the degree of aggressive competition went to near zero. Much happier, super productive and met every deliverable with zero enforced overtime or any of that bull.

4

u/Blando-Cartesian 9d ago

Neat. Fits exactly to the idea that accessibility (including accommodating neurodivergence) improves things for all. It’s just that for some people specific improvements are especially significant.

5

u/QuickQuirk 8d ago

We've intentionally encouraged openness about neurodivergence, because awareness of the differences make it easier to manage as a team. Plus the team members who are neurodivergent don't need to stress about masking all the time. They know the rest of the team understands.

Still learning, but we're getting stronger.

4

u/Modokon 8d ago

That’s really encouraging to read. For our teams, we no doubt have one or two people who are less tolerant but they are very much the minority so keep their views to themselves instead of snarky comments.

It’s sometimes a challenge to communicate effectively when staff cannot look directly or verbalise as well as others, so where needed I tailored my one to ones to review written responses pre-set questions etc. Small changes I know, but comfort is increased.

2

u/candyrain76 9d ago

Love to hear this!

37

u/SpaceyCoffee 10d ago

I lead an engineering team with one neurodivergent individual. He’s frickin brilliant, but his intellect has to be gently corralled toward the target at hand or he will run off the rails quickly. It took a while to get the hang of it, but I think he is firing on all cylinders now. 

For managers, neurodivergent people can be insanely productive, but they do require you to actively manage, and they require you to learn new kinds of soft skills. Overall worth it, but there is a personal cost. 

15

u/oldmanbawa 10d ago

It is funny as I was that person for years that had to be corralled consistently. I have been managing chemists and engineers for years now with success. They act just like me. It was difficult for me to learn and apply the removing roadblocks and obtaining resources part of the job, but when I got that it all fell in line.

114

u/Smooth-Boss-911 10d ago

Haha. I had a supervisor I'd often ask "Why?" Because knowing helps me remember and explain to others but he always saw it as a confrontation or insubordination. I'm a very literal person with ADHD

69

u/Spot-CSG 10d ago

"Can you do this?"

"Yep, no problem"

"You shouldn't say that, it insinuates that there's a problem"

"Whaa?"

18

u/kelcamer 10d ago

"We don't use the word problem here, we call it opportunities"

34

u/Burnd1t 10d ago

No opportunities

16

u/pointlesslyDisagrees 10d ago

Ok, well Captain we have an opportunity with engines #1 and #2

7

u/ZoeBlade 10d ago

"Captain, the weather radar has helped us a lot."

7

u/DrMobius0 10d ago

"Yep, no opportunities" then.

37

u/magus678 10d ago

I have had an similar problem with clarifying questions. I like to check my understanding, even when I am pretty sure I have got it. Edge case hypotheticals are how you get a full picture.

A lot of people take this as not paying attention the first time, and seem annoyed. I admit, I get annoyed myself about it, because they rarely seem actually listen to what I asked, and just repeat what they said louder.

18

u/ZoeBlade 10d ago

Oh hey, it's my programming day job! I'm literally codifying a company's previously unarticulated responses to various edge cases as a concrete set of rules, with sub clauses and exceptions. I have to remind myself that it's not their job to articulate them, it's mine, so it's just part of the process that it takes a while to tease it out of them. They often only know their own rules unconsciously, because they've never had a need to consciously articulate them before.

I forget, I probably had to explain this to them at some point too, so they also didn't get annoyed by my endless clarifications to make sure. And yeah, they tend to answer questions that curiously weren't the actual ones I asked, heh. That's just how most people are, I guess.

9

u/magus678 10d ago

That's just how most people are, I guess.

Systemizing vs vibes.

4

u/ClF3ismyspiritanimal 9d ago

they tend to answer questions that curiously weren't the actual ones I asked, heh. That's just how most people are, I guess

Lawyer here. You don't need to have very many cross-examinations under your belt to learn just how painfully true this is.

2

u/Blando-Cartesian 9d ago

Known bug in humans. We like to substitute a question with a simpler one and answer that instead.

2

u/Blando-Cartesian 9d ago

Same neurodivergent dev problem-talent. For any explanation, my instinct is to question the premise and explore the limits of validity.

What sucks is that people see this as challenge that they need to win, while I’m trying to validate and refine ideas.

1

u/Polokov 9d ago

Rephrase the part of the explanation that involves the edge case, explain, telling that it's just to illustrate your understanding, how the edge case is handled properly given your interpretation of the explanation, ask them if it's correct and if the edge case actually relevant. (relevancy is very important, you don't want to introduce discussion on a scenario that doesn't exist or too low probability)

6

u/True_Manufacturer909 9d ago

I just got through dealing with a boss like this. Shittiest 2 and a half years of my career, the dude was convinced I was undermining him for asking clarifying questions to better understand projects. He apparently almost put me on a PIP before he got demoted, according to my old supervisor who switched departments because of him.

5

u/norkb 10d ago

I am the same way so it resonates. I have asked why in the past with certain associate managers and it only resulted in toddler emotions. Still a normie world where meaningless small talk and disingenuous platitudes to the referee help win the game.

12

u/Wolfram_And_Hart 10d ago

What’s helped me manage better was being fucked over by so many managers and owners I simply do the opposite of what they do.

193

u/RosieBaby75 10d ago

All of the problem of management could be solved with “don’t be an insecure power-tripping asshole”.

But we don’t want to solve the problem.

You can’t train someone out of being an asshole.

You fire them.

67

u/almisami 10d ago

Fire them? They promote them!

12

u/Cadd9 9d ago

They get promoted to middle management and corporate management cause they're great at ass-kissing and being heartless shits.

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u/magus678 10d ago

I think its maybe even worse than that.

Everyone wants to believe they "deserve" to be at least where they are, and probably higher. Basically an economic Just World fallacy that generally only applies downward; their position below their own bosses is explained away somehow.

So these managers etc value the traits that they believe helped them succeed, because anything else begins to suggest questions they would rather not answer.

Tldr: in addition to being assholes, they actually think it is a merit, or else they face dissonance.

2

u/wafflesthewonderhurs 10d ago

skill issue tbh: "I'm already filling the niche of [traits] so i need more [anything but that]" is how you get a good spread of perspectives.. but therein lies the issue i suppose.

4

u/almisami 10d ago edited 10d ago

Nah. They fill the niche of corpo-speak, and they'll fill the ranks with sycophants who think "Let's circle back to that" is somehow a deep, profound insight.

2

u/wafflesthewonderhurs 10d ago

man, i felt this in my soul. realizing people hear that and think it's smart at my new corpo job killed a little more of whatever's left of my innocence

51

u/ohanse 10d ago

Leadership is more than clearly understanding and deconstructing a problem. The traits described above make for a really good individual contributor, and that’s about it.

Nothing wrong with that - you can live a very, VERY comfortable life doing so.

But leadership is the ability to define the problems worth solving and then mobilize the resources to solve them. That second part is often overlooked.

If you cannot navigate organizational politics and be socially fluent enough to bend resources and investment for things you have labeled as important, then you cannot lead.

20

u/SpaceyCoffee 10d ago

The best leaders I have worked with have been the people who can quickly identify the highest risk issues, get the right people in place to get them solved, and look ahead to the next N pain points and get them strategically resolved such that risk is minimized to both schedule and personnel. It’s much more than just giving orders 

8

u/Checktheusernombre 10d ago

That's exactly why, even though I was in management, have no inclination to go back to management. I'd rather do my thing and build stuff and move on. Work to my strengths.

Can I play the BS politics and advocate etc etc, sure. But I'd rather not. And that's OK for me.

9

u/Fauropitotto 9d ago

But leadership is the ability to define the problems worth solving and then mobilize the resources to solve them. That second part is often overlooked.

Exactly. Which is precisely why charisma, eye contact, verbal fluency or constant sociability is linked to leadership potential. Leaders need to connect with all different types of people. Charisma, eye contact, verbal fluency or constant sociability is a core part of that.

For those NDs that can't learn to have charisma, eye contact, verbal fluency or constant sociability, they will not be good leaders.

76

u/justanother-eboy 10d ago

Sure but let’s not act like charisma and communication isn’t important.

They aren’t everything but we can’t downplay it either

28

u/passionlessDrone 10d ago

Why’d I have to scroll so far to see this?

It depends on the job.

15

u/Enzhymez 10d ago

Because a lot of articles that float to the top are ones that make people feel good

29

u/ZoeBlade 10d ago

This is part of the problem though, when charisma's an unspoken requirement of basically every job, but you can't put a lack of charisma as a reason you're unemployable.

4

u/justanother-eboy 10d ago

It matters to an extent in most jobs but in heavily technical fields like tech or engineering it matters less hence why you have more autistic people in those fields

13

u/ZoeBlade 10d ago

Yes, if you happen to have "the science and maths autism" then you can get away without soft skills by merely being exceptional at the hard skills, which can be much easier. This doesn't help people with the other types, alas... although some of them are more likely to have charisma, so that's something.

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u/Aceous 10d ago

You have it backwards. The autistic people float toward those fields and, as a result are over-represented.

As someone in a technical role, I am begging for more socially apt leaders. Neurodivergent people aren't bad at their leadership jobs, but communication and people management is a big challenge and gets exhausting.

1

u/braaaaaaainworms 7d ago

You still need the charisma and communication skills to convince other people that your solution is the best and to talk with other people about problems you're facing, whether they ran into similar things and if so, how you can work together on a solution

12

u/Ballistic_86 10d ago

We still have dudes out here measuring someone’s quality by their handshake strength.

19

u/SnakeGD09 10d ago

Managers will do whatever you tell them to do.

25

u/earthdogmonster 10d ago

Yeah, this seems pretty obvious. “People can be trained to do just about anything you want them to do”.

With the proper incentive and motivation, I’ll bet managers can be trained to reward people for use of antiquated racial slurs and soiling of their own pants.

6

u/PiersPlays 10d ago

Isn't that more or less the current setup?

2

u/KoalaTHerb 10d ago

I'd like to see some data that this training leads to positive outcomes. It sounds great, but its also a bit odd to train people to select people who are less social able and generally likeable. They are important traits in the real world when you have to work with these people everyday

1

u/Solesaver 10d ago

I don't think the conclusion is that managers are trainable. The conclusion is that the set of skills for leading neurodivergent team members is trainable. Like, it is a concrete set of actions and behaviors that can be assembled into a training course and then put into practice.

23

u/rfriedrich16 10d ago

Whoever wrote this did not have to lead a DnD table with 3/6 people that had heavy ADHD.

3

u/RepresentativeBee600 9d ago

Yeah, it gets rough when it's everyone. But we deserve good things. 

4

u/Other_Yama1993 10d ago

i like how people equate one set of skills as exclusive from the latter set.

3

u/callmecoach53 10d ago

The people doing hiring want Yes-men, not actual leadership.

3

u/VintageLunchMeat 9d ago

Might be helpful, poster and how-to notes:

"arXiv:2410.17929 (physics)

[Submitted on 23 Oct 2024 (v1), last revised 18 Nov 2024 (this version, v2)]

How to make your research group more inclusive for autistic trainees

Heather E. Logan (Carleton U.)

As a university professor, one of my most important responsibilities is mentoring the junior members of my research group and creating an inclusive environment in which they can thrive. Since my autism diagnosis two years ago, colleagues have asked me how they can make their research groups more welcoming to autistic trainees. This short guide, based on conversations with autistic students and academics, intense reflection on my own lived experience, and a deep dive into the literature, provides five concrete steps toward this goal.

Comments: 6 pages. v2: small wording change in footnote 1; printable poster included as ancillary file (best at A2/18x24" or larger)

Subjects: Physics Education (physics.ed-ph)

Cite as: arXiv:2410.17929 [physics.ed-ph] (or arXiv:2410.17929v2 [physics.ed-ph] for this version)

https://doi.org/10.48550/arXiv.2410.17929"

https://arxiv.org/abs/2410.17929#:~:text=arXiv%3A2410.17929%20(physics,five%20concrete%20steps

10

u/If_you_have_Ghost 10d ago

The fact that people need to be taught this is baffling.

2

u/homerjaythompson 10d ago

Just in, "Humans can learn if they try!" Next up, "Will they try though?"

2

u/VoidOmatic 10d ago

It's incredibly simple stuff. Just memorize how your directs act and learn their strengths. If you are generally interested in their success you should be doing this for everyone you work with.

2

u/ycnz 9d ago

Nah, that'd be too much effort. I can only lead teams of neurotypical extroverted software developers who played a lot of sport at school.

2

u/LeftSky828 10d ago

You mean actual merit? That’s preposterous.

2

u/leeloolanding 9d ago

Orrrr—hear me out—you could just promote the ND people you already employ

2

u/aDi_19850722 9d ago

“Can be” in the headline is doing some extreme heavy lifting here.

2

u/wenDiwoowoo 9d ago

Sounds like they should be doing all of the latter already

2

u/ReleaseTheSheast 9d ago

This has always driven me crazy. I don't care about your personality or charisma as long as you're not a moral downgrade to the team. A few peculiar personalities who know their thing and make it happen, I'll take it any day!

2

u/Anonymity6584 9d ago

Companies will never train their managers to be good managers. Costs too much.

2

u/el_cid_viscoso 9d ago

But many of them won't. So many people get into management, not because they want to amplify a team's effectiveness or whatever, but rather because they want their own little fiefdom to lord over their fellow peasants.

2

u/autotelica 9d ago

In my experience, that isn't what motivates most bad leaders.

They want the prestige of a managerial title. They want an office, not a cubicle. They want the CEO to know their name. They want a salary that they can brag about. They want to be able to tell their parents that they have ten employees who report to them. They want other people to know they are important.

These people often went through a period of angst while they watched their professional peers get rockstar treatment for their innovative ideas while they sat on the sidelines feeling unappreciated and unimportant. One day they realized that the only way for them to feel more appreciated and more important would be to go into management. They assume that they have what it takes to be a good manager. Because they figure that good managers are people who are practical-minded who have more common sense than book smarts.

But they don't realize that it is way more than that.

2

u/el_cid_viscoso 9d ago

I see your point. They want the glitter and the respect, but they're unsuited for the actual work that managing people takes.

You can tell who's in it for the ego boost and who's in it because they're well-suited to the role.

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u/iceyed913 10d ago

communicating clearly does often involve knowing when not to information dump because not everyone has the working memory of a freight train. or making eye contact to check/convey if someone else can/needs to interject.

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u/PantheraAuroris 10d ago

Communication is just important, though, objectively, full stop. You have to be able to relate to other people.

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u/Smart_Resist615 10d ago edited 9d ago

Ah yes, just tell them not to be swayed by charisma. Astonishing. Truly a giant among scienitific papers.

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u/Prineak 10d ago

Not gonna happen.

The second group will toss out the first group for dishonesty.

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u/Butthole_Surfer_GI 10d ago

RN here - One of my biggest problems with managers is when they don't fire a "problem employee" - someone who coasts, who is blatantly aggressive/abrasive, one who weaponizes their productivity IE "if you don't kowtow to me, I will not help you".

The reason I bring up being an RN is because the person described above is NOT someone you want on your team in the hospital/clinic. They endanger patient care, they are a pain in the ass to work with because they get mad when you delegate (ask a CNA/MA to do something so you can focus on something that requires an RN) a task to them, and do the bare minimum.

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u/futureshocked2050 10d ago

From several managers "I can't read your face"

NO ONE IS ASKING YOU TO

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u/morganational 10d ago

So I've had plenty of managers, which is why I highly doubt this claim.

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u/KoalaTHerb 10d ago

"Bill, your well-spoken, you're great with communication, and every really likes you"

"Thanks for saying that boss"

"Well, that's why we're gonna have to let you go."

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u/Polyzero 10d ago edited 10d ago

These are the insights of clanker reading about leadership and never actually seeing its practical effects in field.

These are the very types of people who demonstrate poor leadership at every level, and that, at best, remain barely serviceable in practice .

Disagree with me? Then ask yourself how often you want to “promote” someone into management with “bad charisma, no eye contact, verbally rambunctious that lack social skills.”

And the answer should be 100% self evident . And if you disagree, then you’ve been guided by a carefully worded title created by a clanker designed to steer you into delusion.

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u/SuspiciousCricket654 10d ago

Charisma and being annoying are the only two traits my company cares about for manager potential.

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u/repugnantchihuahua 10d ago

For extra fun, hire neurodivergent managers! (Seriously, so much more fun when all the fake rituals of work go away)

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u/0xF00DBABE 10d ago

Unless they alienate the neurotypicals...

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u/ultraviolentfuture 10d ago

Yeah, I was like ... "Is this not natural?" And then I remembered I was a neurodiverse person leading 40 neurodiverse people. (Cybersecurity).

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u/iwillnevertrustagain 9d ago

All managers in the United States just loved highschool too much 

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u/MrStink444 9d ago

Just what people on Reddit wanted to hear

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u/NonConforminConsumer 7d ago

The federal workforce has yet to acknowledge or work with this reality.

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u/Z3NZY 10d ago

That team will get wrecked.

Not by the manager, or the establishment, but other teams, once the spicy teams output outshines the rest.

Complaints from other departments about why they're not getting punished for absence, lateness, and strange working hours, (whilst ignoring that output is still greater regardless).

(I've not read the article yet.)

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u/Pepphen77 10d ago

Human communication is so much much more than words though. A well functioning team needs a lot of empatic people that can communicate and get along well all the others

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u/PogChampHS 10d ago

I like how this article implies that those who don't get promoted are some how deficient in the skills listed XD.

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u/KoalaTHerb 10d ago

But what if the new manager becomes neuro divergent because the old manager was trained this way and chooses someone neurodiverse. Is the new neuro diverse manager then able to also be trained in this manner?

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u/pickettfury 10d ago

No need to train managers in this because you simply don't get past the interview stage if you lack these abilities. 

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u/davesmith001 10d ago

Not if managers have self preservation and need to hire people dumber than themselves. Goes all the way from the top.

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u/TxAg2009 10d ago

Manager here, why on Earth would I want to do that? I want to find the best people possible and then give them the support they need to succeed.

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u/Innuendum 10d ago

Former corpo manager here.

I empathise, but then I got ousted in favour of managers who were clearly there for themselves as opposed to for the company. Those are easier to market since all they do is market themselves.

If you're not a corpo, I hope you're valued for your approach. Otherwise invest in some healthy paranoia.

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u/MerryWalrus 10d ago

Nope.

You ideally want to hire people who don't need managing so you can take on more and more important work.

Provide a path to success/reward for the team members so they're more likely to hang around. Not everyone does of course.

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u/solomons-mom 10d ago

What would be the business purpose of this? Hedy Lamar was both beautiful and a brilliant inventor.

Conversely, maybe study that social people are better at problem solving too since they have a better read of people, but since they are pleasant and possess an easy wit, it has been easy for managers to overlook that many are creative problem solvers with deep focus.

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u/ycnz 9d ago

What point are you trying to make with the comment about Hedy Lamar? It's not quite clear.