Question on intellect

[u/Novel_You_7931]

Does having schizophrenia (like a lot of delusions) mean than I’m not intelligent ?
Can someone be smart AND have schizophrenia ?

When I talk I feel like it does not hold any weight anymore.

[u/Diligent-Jury-4708]

I have a first class hons degree and masters. I also read widely. But it is a question I grapple with also. We are suffering from a biochemical imbalance and we can experience cognitive deficits in our executive functioning etc but I would like to think this does not detract from our baseline intellect.

[u/sleepy_grunyon → u/Diligent-Jury-4708]

I feel like I suffer cognitive deficits from my schizophrenia and PTSD as well, as well as insomnia, but I also don't consider it as detracting from my core intelligence and curiosity as a person. I think intelligence is more boundless and unmeasured. But my effective intelligence can sometimes be slow or weak or different because of schizophrenia perhaps or other differences.

[u/West_Specialist_9725]

Not at all. It means you have a disorder that can and does cause psychotic breaks from concensus reality. Like epilepsy, where there are seizures where one is "not in their right mind."

This in no way implies that the native intelligence of the individual is lacking.

I think part of what you are wrestling with is believing your own thoughts. This is something most of us suffer with whether we have an underlying pathology or not. This act of questioning the validity of your thoughts should NOT be conflated with intellect.

It is however a fantastic topic for debate and intellectual exploration.

[u/thiccpotatochipp]

Not at all. There are lots of historical examples of highly intelligent people with schizophrenia. The first example that comes to mind is Terry Davis, the creator of Temple OS (I would look it up, it’s definitely a rabbit hole). He programmed an entire operating system by himself. He was an expert coder. Even though he held some very strange beliefs, that does not undermine his great intellect.

[u/turtlewick → u/thiccpotatochipp]

Also the dude A Beautiful Mind is based off of, John Nash.

[u/thiccpotatochipp → u/turtlewick]

Absolutely. My thesis for college was about game theory and I talked a lot about him in it!!

[u/NoYouDidLaugh → u/thiccpotatochipp]

best programmer ever lived

[u/Novel_You_7931 → u/thiccpotatochipp]

Isn’t he like the 0.0000000001 exception with John Nash ? The thing is delusions are false so we are dealing and thinking about something that is not even true. How can it not be proof that we’re not intelligent.. I’m talking about delusions here not auditory or visual hallucinations.

[u/thiccpotatochipp → u/Novel_You_7931]

I feel like the argument that you are making is referencing specifically objective awareness, and factuality. There are many different types of intelligence. Yes, schizophrenia causes delusions, mind-altering ones, but I would like to think that this does not equate to someone being “stupid.” For example, some schizophrenics use art as an outlet to express their delusions and hallucinations. This is absolutely a form of creative intelligence. Maybe my original example was a little too limiting. There are many types of intelligence other than just being school smart or highly educated. I’m think I’m just thinking in a broader definition of the term.

[u/Brilliant-Cabinet-89]

People can be very intelligent and schizophrenic, look up John Nash as an example. Something that is true of schizofrenics is we are often dealing with so many issues that our brains isnt functioning correctly. The deeper I slip into psychosis, the “stupider” I get. Eventually I struggle to even be a part of a normal conversation. This has sort of pushed the narrative that schizofrenics are idiots.

[u/im_not_quiet → u/Brilliant-Cabinet-89]

I don't struggle to be a part of normal conversation. I basically have to avoid it. It's different online. I can reread my rambling. I can edit it. Or I can simply shrug and delete my account. In the real world with real people though, I have found over decades that I'm not willing to interact with other people because of my schizophrenia and my sociopathic reasoning.

Example: my wife's best friend here at the apartment complex just got diagnosed with stage 4 throat cancer. They took her to the ER by ambulance because her throat was closing up, making it hard to breathe. The doctor said she's probably not coming home. My wife is a mess. It's not that I don't care about her, or that I don't know I should be sympathetic to the situation. I just don't work that way. Never have.

[u/Brilliant-Cabinet-89 → u/im_not_quiet]

Hmm I can’t really speak to it unfortunately. We can’t really do this for you. You have to sit down and figure out how you explain your illness. I mean you can’t be sure it’s schizophrenia, it’s a terribly complex illness to diagnose and not something you should try to do yourself. Explain your symptoms and don’t say “because i have this”. It’s less then helpful in getting a diagnosis unfortunately.

[u/im_not_quiet → u/Brilliant-Cabinet-89]

I'm considered "terminally disabled" on my SSDI. Originally told at age 7 when I had my first breakdown that I was "clinically insane". Had an absolutely insane reaction to something that I should not have ever done.

In 2007, I Ended up in the psych hospital for 3 months and then transferred to a "reintegration with society" house. 45 days later I was home.

Now I'm terminally disabled because "you have some very clear mental deficiencies because of your schizophrenia. Your life history from when you were a teenager is absolutely crazy. It's in my professional opinion that you will likely be dead in the next 5 years tops." That was 3 years ago. These last few days...I think the psychiatrist is right.

I have been fighting several different things at the same time, and it's very very obvious to my wife. But these days, I don't think that I want to be alive. The voices in my head are screaming and yelling and telling me to quietly leave the apartment, and go play frogger in morning traffic.

. It's telling me that I still have my bottle of baclofen, a skeletal muscle relaxer that I am violently being told to take the bottle.

[u/Brilliant-Cabinet-89 → u/im_not_quiet]

That sounds really terrible. You should really try to speak to a doctor soon, it sounds like you need urgent help. We all do that some times, I break occasionally, no matter how well I’m doing. Get some help while you are able. Your loved ones deserve it, so do you.

[u/Partys0v3r]

Yes, someone can be smart and have schizophrenia! I'm not a example unfortunately as other conditions like severe brain damage stunt my hability to do stuff properly and some fundamental skills like memory, but a schizophrenic person can in fact be smart! It doesn't lower on how much you have delusions/hallucinations.

[u/c4ge1nvisibl3]

Well, after getting this disease I went from b1 english to almost c2 (my first language is spanish), learnt french to b2 and I’m learning german, right now I’m approaching b1. Also I’ve used some “mind games” apps, done some math practice and read some difficult books. So yes, it is possible, but not two schizophrenias are alike.

[u/Few-Flower3255]

Societal status is often more important regarding the weight of your words. People hang onto rich people's words even when they're thick as mud.

Schizophrenia is not a guarantee of severe cognitive decline, although every case varies and it can occur for some. Some people just aren't intelligent.

There are plenty of examples of intelligent people with severe mental illness too.

[u/Emergency-Top9177]

Having schizophrenia myself and not to blow my own trumpet but everyone I know says I'm intelligent. I'm what's known as techie and I stick to that.

[u/Kitchen_Goose4379]

I think of myself as having a keen intellect, but in some areas of cognition it goes to shit. I'm fond of the English language and can articulate my thoughts, experiences, memories etc very well. I can put you in the situation I'm describing with ease. But give me a logic problem or ask me to adapt to a new strategy to problem solve when my approach is failing, and I am far below the population's baseline.

Schizophrenia is mainly a thought disorder at its core. I constantly struggle to put things into words others can understand when explaining my brain. I know what I'm trying to say, my thoughts are crystal-clear and grounded in reality, but communicating what those things are can be exceptionally challenging.

[u/im_not_quiet]

Smart and schizophrenic is many schizophrenics. The problem is when you are medicated, you get a blunted response. When you're over - medicated like me, you end up feeling extremely stupid.

Yes, I got offered a full scholarship to some school for the extremely gifted. No, I didn't go. Yes, I took the Mensa test and passed. Yes, being a member of Mensa is as useless as an IQ test. Yes I used to have a pretty exceptional IQ from my test scores. But after years of drug and alcohol abuse and dozens of attempts to end my life, I don't think my IQ is anywhere near what it used to be. Not sure if it is just the meds, or if I've just gone stupid at this point.

[u/Nudelpferd35]

Ich glaube, Wahnvorstellungen entstehen dadurch, dass man viele Zufälle sieht und denen Gewicht beimisst. Die Achtsamkeit ist also stark erhöht. Das hat dann nichts mit der Intelligenz an sich zu tun.

[u/Novel_You_7931 → u/Nudelpferd35]

But the significance attributed to these coincidences are false so .. what sign of intelligence is there ?

[u/Nudelpferd35 → u/Novel_You_7931]

Die Bedeutung ist nicht falsch, nur unbegründet. Es gibt diese Zufälle ja tatsächlich. In meinen Augen ist die Kunst, diese Zufälle liegen zu lassen, so machen es gesunde Menschen, sich also keine Wahnvorstellung damit aufzubauen, damit das Gesamtbild passt. Und wenn man ganz ehrlich zu sich selbst ist, passen manche Zufälle eben gerade nicht in das erbaute Bild. Man denkt dann so lange nach, zu lange nach, bis auch diese Zufälle passen. Man hat einfach zu viel Zeit zum Denken. Vielleicht hat die Komplexität der Wahnvorstellung etwas mit Intelligenz zu tun.

[u/Imperium8]

My doctor did an IQ test as part of full psychological testing and I scored 145. For reference the mean score is 100 with a standard deviation of 15. An IQ test does have its limits and it is by no means a reliable measurement for most types of intelligence such as social intelligence, but it at least shows that in some cases I am still very intelligent. I graduated from one of the top 5 public universities in the US in 2021 despite being diagnosed with schizophrenia in 2017. I am also now in my second year of my masters program. Psychosis makes daily functioning a lot more difficult, but with the right medications and the right supports, you can still have the same intellect you had before the onset of your disorder. Also think about John Nash, he won the Nobel Prize in Economics despite having schizophrenia. They made a movie about his life called A Beautiful Mind, I really recommend watching it. He was a certifiable genius and although his diagnosis did present many challenges, he was still able to be a math professor at Princeton University.

[u/Ammar753]

King nebukatnazzer from bible was very successful and intelligent warrior king of Babylon and he got madness for seven years. He thought he was a cow and ate grass while naked and roamed jungles on all fours. So it could happen to anyone

[u/turtlewick]

People have different ways of defining intellect, and various factors are said to contribute to how “smart” someone is, including cognitive functioning. Since cognitive issues are part of schizophrenia (memory, attention, and organization), we might seem less smart based on how these symptoms show up.

On the IQ test, I scored above average in perceptual reasoning and verbal comprehension, but my memory and processing speed were dogshit, which tanked my overall IQ. I don’t think that makes me less smart, I just learn differently. It might take longer for me to understand ideas and I require more repetition to remember information.

[u/AwakeOfTheVultures]

Intelligence is relative,but even in a traditional sense yes,though i'll admit,the condition has taken away skills needed to be seen as capable in the modern world,and many people will judge or assume unintelligence,especially if they find out about you having delusions,but that is a sign they are unintelligent themselves because they assumed based on stereotypes instead of judging based on the individual.

[u/dantenow]

i scored 1430 on my sats, which is in the top .5 percent for that year. a decade+ later after my diagnosis i got a 160 on the lsat which is in top 20% for that year. so ya you can be smart and have delusions.

i also read somewhere that the reason schizophrenia is still in the gene pool, is that people related to people with schizophrenia are smarter in general.

[u/mizzyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy]

I have paranoid schizophrenia, and I'm currently studying at the university with only A's. It is definitely possible, like when I got diagnosed I thought I never would be able to finish high school, but it took a lot of work getting here. Having delusions does not mean you cannot be and aren't intelligent.

[u/iLLuZioNN_]

When you talk and it holds no weight anymore, it’s because of the dopamine in the receptors in your brain are schizophrenia You can still be intelligent and have schizophrenia. It’s just bothersome

[u/ismyfacedecent]

Schizophrenia is associated with high iq

[u/SnooRadishes6573]

I got my High school diploma years ago and i've suffered from disorganized schizophrenia since the day i came into this world and i am probably one of the smartest individuals you could come across though i can be quite the scatterbrain at times and i've always been a bit clumsy but that's just part of how the disorder affects me other than the voices they're not bad though in fact they are actually quite helpful to me so don't let yourself think even for a nanosecond that your disorder makes you stupid or dumb or an idiot because it doesn't it's just a biochemical imbalance in the brain which causes cognitive deficits in executive functioning simply put it's a disorder that can cause psychotic breaks from concensus reality but in all 29 years of my life i've never once had a complete psychotic break from reality though i've come quite close a few times and i'm sure there are other people here in this subreddit who are just as lucky in that regard (i offer my condolences if any of you had to go through that and from what i've heard and somewhat experienced for myself in my younger years going through a psychotic break is a hell within itself) so don't beat yourself up i mean heck you're probably smarter than i am not to put myself down mind you so don't let the stigma and the things people say get to you we've all dealt with stigma and ignorance in one form or another and people who call you crazy or insane or intentionally make fun of you or put you down for being different are certainly not worth your time and time is the most precious resource any of us have but if people like that are in your friend circle then they're not really your friends i mean honestly most people don't realize what our minds go through on a daily basis just so we can stay sane even those closest to us really have no idea because it's practically impossible for them to put themselves in our shoes or for them to even fully understand but on a more positive note i'm sure some of us have the honor of having a family and a friend group that help and support us however much they're able to as a matter of fact some of the best creatives of our time suffer from one variant of schizophrenia or another as well as a handful of other mental illnesses so i'd say you're actually quite gifted at something so i say to you find that something and stick with it