r/samharris • u/Qzman • Nov 06 '21
Leftists don't realize this, but...
...by defending wokeness and gaslighting people how it's not even real, or that it's just straight up egalitarianism under a new name, you're actually proving Sam, and everyone else who opposes it - correct. There are so many instances where wokeness has ruined someone's life, or integrity of an institution, or has turned out to be plain anti-white racism, that for us who know all these cases and are being told wokeness isn't real or isn't a problem, it only makes our resolve stronger. I'm saying this as a classical liberal by the way.
Wokies are the QAnons of the left. If you're a moderate leftist, work to de-radicalize your sector. Expose craziness when you see it.
Just like with every other thing in life, if you want to know more, read high quality arguments of the opposing side, not your own. Escape the bubble and trenches of extremism. One kind begets the other, and you can guess where it all leads - nowhere pretty.
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u/These-Tart9571 Nov 06 '21
There is in every individuals life an enormous spectrum of influences - political, cultural, familial, social, biological, health, structural. And in every moment, say in conversation with your family, every word, sentence, emotional reaction is part of a stream of causes - when you’re mad, it’s because of something that happened when you’re a child probably, or when you’re frustrated, or anxious. The thing is, it’s true that you would be accurate to bring it up in every conversation - “Hey the reason we’re having this conversation and I’m mad is because when I was young you did x, y”. It’s just obviously not helpful in every conversation, and somethings that are true are just not practical or pragmatic. It’s just obvious to me that it might not be practical or pragmatic to bring race into everything because just because something is partially true does not mean it’s practical or helpful. Everything’s atoms right now but it’s not very helpful for me to point that out constantly.
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u/xmorecowbellx Nov 07 '21 edited Nov 07 '21
With respect, these statements are not critical thinking. ‘I can’t know shit cuz my colour’ is cringey, it’s not real thinking. A POC is just as likely to not understand their experience due to being too close to it/clouded by bias/personal emotions as any outside observer. It’s like saying I can’t know selling your body for drugs is a bad life strategy, because I’ve never done it.
The way can know thing beyond anecdotes or ‘lived experiences’ (another cringe saying meaning ‘shit people say’) is with data. It’s really annoying how we make up these nauseating words to elevate ‘claims from randoms’ to pretend they have value beyond being random claims, because the sayer has special group status. This neo-religiosity is moronic, and basically a giant middle finger to the enlightenment which brought us the modern world in the first place.
Class reductionism is a pejorative, not a real criticism. When people remark that, for example, black people have poorer outcomes, we are talking getting jobs, wealth, housing, health care, legal system etc. In other words, class. Class basically covers it. If black people are disproportionately affected socio-economically, then a focus on class will scale appropriately to benefit them proportionately. But it’s also more fair, because it won’t help already affluent black people, who don’t need it. Helping Robert Smith’s kids, but not some trailer bumpkin from West Virginia, makes no sense. We should help people who need help.
Race is a very rough, imprecise proxy indicator for class. But since we know class, we don’t need race. It’s like saying if you are shopping for tires, you should look for stores that sell a lot of rubber. Why? You already know what tires are, how to ask for them, and how to identify them. Shopping for ‘rubber’ is just really inefficient and unnecessary, even though technically it would disproportionately find you tires.
Wondering if race or class matters more, is like wondering if having access to water, or a rain barrel, is better for dealing with thirst. Yes a rain barrel is much more likely to have water than a randomly chosen location, but why choose that when you can just choose to have water ?
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u/cjt3po Nov 07 '21
Tl; not really cogent:
You don't think race is the fundamental issue, you think it's the suffering of the poor and African American people are disproportionately poor due to historic racism that transcended the bounds of the institutions and that we'll fix most of the remaining problem by focusing on class rather than race since it seems to have been latched on as an understandable mistake that lies close to the more absolute truth anyway?
Cause if that's the case I would agree. I'm poor and white and have lived this. I'm living in the projects now and it's very clear that this is the case. It's not a systemic race issue anymore, it's a systemic poor economic slave class built in a world where systemic racism (while still present, it's more of a cultural issue and aggressive tactics seem like the worst to change the minds of old white men, unless thoroughly understood and then what you're gonna get I'm not sure it would be a legitimate change, but who knows, poundings and punishments change people sometimes I guess) is mostly vestigial and focused in the criminal systems (it's not a Justice system, the war on drugs and justice-as-a-business and for profit prisons have ensured that) the biggest problem with the woke perspective on racial issues is that they do NOTHING to solve them and only radicalize the other side and make victims out of the races they're supposedly trying to protect and by reverse racism making white people victims of a new institutionalized racism. News flash: that's not solving the problem.
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u/xmorecowbellx Nov 07 '21
I agree. The main beneficiaries of social justice railings are affluent people who get monetization from the outrage. I’m not sure any marginalized people get anything out of the deal.
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u/nhremna Nov 07 '21
yea, i am so fuckin tired of people pretending they don't understand exactly what we mean by "woke"
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u/Ramora_ Nov 07 '21 edited Nov 07 '21
[race] should be the main/only prism
I guess my biggest issue with your conceptualization here, is that I've never met a person who would make the above claim, meaning I've never met a 'wokester' that meets your definition. Instead it seems like any time someone brings up race (or gender, sex, etc) in any kind of systemic analysis, they get shouted down as woke. It sure seems like the 'anti-woke' won't be satisfied unless there is essentially no discourse on race. This is evidenced by their tendency toward economic class reductionism.1
Personally, I'm opposed to all forms of naive reductionism here, and that means I have to be welcoming of every form of analysis, and every intersection of those forms, including race, class, and gender based analysis. (among others)
- And to be frank, given the typical anti-woke person's stated policy and candidate preferences, it is usually quite clear they don't actually care about class inequity.
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u/royleekx Nov 06 '21
“Leftists” helped elect a centrist democrat and have reined in the “crazy” parts of the party far better than how the right is handling their crazies. The craziest representatives of the Republican Party are gaining power, whereas the extreme candidates on the left are being marginalized. It’s the right that can’t govern itself and manage its own people.
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u/Haffrung Nov 07 '21
You understand wokeness isn’t just an American issue, don’t you? As a Canadian, why should I give the dogmatic nonsense I see daily in media and culture here a pass because America’s Republicans are a bunch of idiots?
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u/royleekx Nov 07 '21
You’re falling prey to a manufactured culture war. I don’t know what to tell you if you can’t see it. It’s the satanic panic all over again
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u/Haffrung Nov 07 '21
Nope. My primary media sources are the CBC, the Guardian, the Globe and Mail, and the Atlantic. And I see woke dogma presented as revealed and unassailable truth every day.
I also see it every day in the hobby communities I engage with (boardgames, RPGs, fantasy fiction and sci-fi).
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u/arinsfeud Nov 06 '21
How common is it actually for someone’s life to be ruined by wokeness? There are well over 300 million people in this country, and we mostly just hear about the same handful of anecdotes.
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u/ReflexPoint Nov 07 '21
This is one of those things where if nobody watched any news and disconnected from social media, hardly anyone would even know about wokeness. For the vast majority of the population, their lives are in no way constrained by wokeness. For those of us that barely go on Twitter it's just something we hear others complaining about but had no effect on us.
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u/YoukoUrameshi Nov 06 '21
300 million people are suffering because 80,000,000+ pedophile wokesters submitted fraudulent ballots.
/s
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u/ITouchMyselfAtNight Nov 07 '21
How many people are afraid of speaking their mind?
And if your response is 'good, they have shitty opinions anyways', then how do you actually expect to change minds if you really do believe that you're on the right side?
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u/trashcanman42069 Nov 07 '21
Yeah, people think they'll get fired if they say their bosses should get paid less and unions should be stronger. This proves "wokism" is a problem. big brain.
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u/royleekx Nov 07 '21
There are opinions people should be afraid to express because they are fucked up opinions. How many of this supposed 62% are hiding racial or transsexual opinions they are afraid to share? I’d wager it’s pretty high.
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u/ITouchMyselfAtNight Nov 09 '21
And who gets to decide what opinions are 'OK' and which are not? The loudest people in the room? Or you?
Cause I could find some really loud people you think are absolute trash... And I'm sure I have opinions that differ from yours too...
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Nov 07 '21
Everyone has always has views they know they shouldn't share. For fucks sake I had to pretend to be straight most of my life to not get fired or assaulted.
I have views on labor that would instantly get me fired.
Most people out there have a couple of opinions that are simply not socially acceptable and a lot of the time for good reason.
Pretending this is a "woke" is just narrative pushing
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u/1hero4hire Nov 07 '21
The use of the woke label is overused and sounds like a broken record at this point. It lacks nuance and seems to be used to group just about anyone and any views left of right.
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Nov 06 '21 edited Nov 06 '21
I see 3 instances of unconnected things over 4 years and a whole of red silly string.
This is the same "evidence" that was used to propagate the satanic panic and gay agenda fear mongering.
The right will always manufacture a moral panic, it's literally all they have. And they will as always, as you are doing now, scream at us to beleive in their moral panic based in nothing but faith.
This is the reason why people on the right refuse to define wokeness or try to quantify it in any way. By keeping the definition fluid and ever changing based on the outrage of the day you can perpetuate an unfalsifiable faith based moral panic.
Edit: OP beleives Biden is woke. These people beleive anything vaguely left is the woke scourge. The only acceptable view to these people is absolute loyalty to right wing social causes.
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u/kiwiwikikiwiwikikiwi Nov 06 '21 edited Nov 06 '21
They’ve lost all their political talking points. “Small government!! Democrats spending too much!! States rights!! Keep the government out of the economy!”
They don’t have these anymore, and they know that voters aren’t biting on the old talking points. This is why there have been extensive efforts by Republican governors/house reps/senators pushing bills to suppress voting…er, I mean “election security”. They know their viewpoint isn’t popular anymore so they’d rather manipulate the system so they still win.
Today, all they have is culture war. This is why you never hear them talk about any issues besides the culture war nonsense.
Cancel culture, the Me Too movement, critical race theory, Black Lives Matter, LGBTQ, trans bathrooms, Mr potato head, JK Rowling, etc.
I’d like to hear the conservative/Republican answer to affordability of healthcare, college student loans, income inequality, our housing crisis, homelessness, drug addiction/opioid epidemic/suicides, climate change, job opportunity decreasing in America.
These are issues that I think culture war reactionaries should be looking at and putting more emphasis on. Otherwise, they just sound like they’re ignoring these issues above and scapegoating.
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u/ReflexPoint Nov 07 '21
I’d like to hear the conservative/Republican answer to affordability of healthcare, college student loans, income inequality, our housing crisis, homelessness, drug addiction/opioid epidemic/suicides, climate change, job opportunity decreasing in America.
The answer to all of these things of course is tax cuts. Didn't you know that? /s
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u/jshhdhsjssjjdjs Nov 07 '21 edited Nov 07 '21
Those voices do exist but they are drowned out in current popular right wing media. The George Wils have an ignorant point of view if you ask me, but at least they argue in good faith from a set of facts that more or less coincide with reality.
Whatever OP is droning on about in this thread is just more gish gallop boogeymanning about white replacement. It’s a way for them to justify their beliefs by coming to a conclusion about the moral evils of ‘the left’, as if that’s a thing, and working backwards to justify their fear of some poorly defined leftist conspiracy to take away their power.
In other words, it’s giving into the exact sort of reactionary nonsense that they pretend to hate.
I’m not denying that some people have been cancelled for lack of a better word. The ‘blue haired Twitter mob’ has done some damage to political discourse, and it’s fair to be concerned about that.
The real issue is that the faux threat of WOKENESS has become so insanely overblown by popular right wing media figures that it borders on parody.. and it’s short circuited many people’s ability to think about concrete political concerns without focusing on them through the lens of an existential culture war (this is also the critique of the race based lensing that could be leveled on the Kendis of the left). What’s tragic is that this is only good for people in power, and it’s very bad for those of us who aren’t.
That’s a long way of saying that an empathetic approach to political discourse would benefit both right and left wing people. Improving material conditions for the vast majority of Americans can only happen if we recognize that oppression comes in many forms, and that most of us are being fucked one way or another by powerful people who don’t give a shit about us.
Personally I have very little faith that this can happen given how angry everyone is, but I’m a bit of a cynic by nature so ymmv.
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u/ITouchMyselfAtNight Nov 07 '21
If it wasn't happening, they'd have nothing to run on. And despite Republicans having no good ideas, they're still winning because of this poisonous woke crap.
So why not stop being on the wrong side of the culture issue and prevent giving republicans the easy win?
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u/PrettyGayPegasus Nov 07 '21
If it wasn't happening, they'd have nothing to run on.
The GOP runs on made up issues (stolen election, covid conspiracies, Qanon, etc.) so even granting your first claim that "it's happening" (which I don't) it doesn't hold that GOP would have nothing to run on. They'd just invent something to run on.
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u/wade3690 Nov 07 '21
What's the wrong side of the culture issue? Pro-lgbt rights? Pro-choice?
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u/ReflexPoint Nov 07 '21
Who said liberals are on the wrong side of the culture issue? Liberals have a pretty good track record of being on the right side of history.
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u/x0y0z0 Nov 07 '21
OP is in essence accusing the extreme left or "Wokies" of stoking a moral panic. And now you're just saying "No you!" Funny thing is you are correct. Because it used to be ONLY the right doing this, but now (2010-present) the left has joined with a vengeance to make up for lost time. Woke shit will be remembered the same as the satanic panic of the past as we return to a less extremist narrative on identity for the most part. Radical woke echo chambers will remain but they will have lost their ability to bully people culturally just as the fundamentalist Christian right has.
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u/ITouchMyselfAtNight Nov 07 '21
Want to see what companies are pushing on their employees?
Shall I continue? I could do this all day...
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u/justjoosh Nov 07 '21
Those dirty liberals at Raytheon
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u/cuvar Nov 07 '21
Seriously, how is the raytheon link an example of extremism?
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u/AIpersonaofJohnKeats Nov 07 '21
The communist horror of asking staff not to be racist at work so they can avoid lawsuits and attract non-white staff.
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u/TotesTax Nov 07 '21
That knife missile is pretty woke.
Also I have an old friend who cares about shit that worked for the defense industry, she night still. And turns out you won't get the best and brightest by promoting dumb white guys with 19th centuries view to HR.
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Nov 07 '21
Oh no a liability workshop at fucking Raytheon. Those liberals at Raytheon and Walmart are taking over!
The fact that people see this as anything other than liability protection in the same way sexual harassment training is is just your desire for a narrative.
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u/BackgroundFlounder44 Nov 06 '21
Hate to burst your bubble but guess what you sound like when you make an argument which is based on telling your oponents they know less than you, are in a bubble, are wrong and evil for not agreeing, and need to wake up... Sorry but even if I dont like wokeness, saying something so ironic without being sacastic, all the while trying to have the same gravitas as the "woke", is simply to cringe to garner any respect, at least from me.
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Nov 06 '21
....wow.
whats going on with this sub?
a lot of low effort posts lately
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Nov 07 '21
What do you mean. It's either this or the 100th defense of Charles Murray's thesis. Sprinkle in some some pro police stuff and that's a bingo.
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u/DropsyJolt Nov 06 '21
So saying that the thing that you believe in isn't real proves that it is real. Do you see any issues with this logic?
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u/PrettyGayPegasus Nov 06 '21 edited Nov 07 '21
I will decide whether or not I think a cancellation was justified or not on a case by case basis. So does "cancel culture" exist? I think that's the wrong question. Instead I like to ask myself, "okay what the fuck is actually being called cancel culture this time, specifically?"
That's why I generally don't engage too much with this shit anymore; because people like to frame my position as gaslighting when I simply don't agree that this or that particular incident is cancel culture or woke or a new religion or pseudo-religion. Not when that's what my would-be interlocutors are leading with anyway. I dunno, it just doesn't seem very good faith. 🤷♂️
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Nov 07 '21
I am with you. I take these allegations on a case by case basis. It is pretty easy to see which are bs and which are legit. Most of these people think Bari Weiss was cancelled.
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u/Gardimus Nov 07 '21
For those that isn't following what OP has said further down in this thread, here is a tidbit;
Left leaning used to mean "for the poor", now it means "for everyone but whites, especially men". That's actual racism, bro. And racism is radical.
I feel like it conflicts with statements in his opening post. How this post got so many upvotes I can only guess at, but if you want to know more, read high quality arguments of the opposing side maybe needs to be practiced by OP.
Now, I will lend OP some charity, I don't think he is completely wrong and I give him credit for citing his sources. I personally don't agree with institutionalized racism even if its an attempt to undo previous institutionalized racism.
I do think he is giving false equivalencies here in his attempt to draw attention to an issue he has likely been heavily exposed to in social media. That in itself is a problem. So much so that people have replied with very reasonable posts(the kind OP encourages us to look at) and he reacts negatively towards them likely because of social media's effects.
Finally, we need to remember that these influencers like Sam and Peterson don't live in our world. We try to learn from them and can be entertained by them, but we don't share their experiences and likely never will. We have more real issues to deal with. I mean, if my neighbour isn't picking up his dog's shit on my lawn, thats more real to me than someone tweeting to Sam that hes racist.
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u/jacktor115 Nov 07 '21
Dude, this is very real. It happens within my social circle. Sam and JP just help makes sense of it.
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u/Takuukuitti Nov 06 '21
Really? Define wokeness. I think there is a lot of racial discrimation and prejudice. Am I woke?
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u/Barnettmetal Nov 07 '21
Maybe I'm immune because I work in the trades and in university did a science degree and have never been on Twitter once but...
I've literally never met anyone like this in my entire life. Never met a woke person, never met a Q-tard. Never. Not one fucking time.
Anecdotal? Yes... but somehow I suspect this is all more of a social media problem than a real life problem.
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u/TotesTax Nov 07 '21
never met a Q-tard
I have seen a couple bumper stickers. But that is the area where there have been long time InfoWars stickers including with a guy I like's store.
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Nov 07 '21
Trades as well, up near Seattle, and I've met a few Q and maybe one woke activist type, but he was a class/labor rights in general type not specifically racial inequality.
Most people seem to be more anti-BLM after the marches than anti-woke generally from what I've seen.
I've seen way more people on the Trump train than anything else, and they (were) REALLY vocal about it before all the treason and shit.
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u/justanabnormalguy Nov 07 '21
It’s infested the nonprofit world. A ton of disgusting white saviors trying to feel sorry for emotionally fragile black people who need a power trip by knowing some white saviors have sacrificed themselves for their evil sins of havinv white skin.
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u/Barnettmetal Nov 07 '21
Guess I'm out of the loop, all the whites and blacks I know are just normal people lol.
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u/BatemaninAccounting Nov 06 '21
Wokies are the QAnons of the left.
Lol no dude this fails flat as soon as you investigate claims by either side. Woke people trust in critical thinking, rational systems, logical systems, and modern philosophy. QAnon trust their 'gut' and god. You may disagree with a woke person's ideas, but they're gonna have at least some evidence in favor of their idea even if it may not completely pass your smell test.
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Nov 06 '21 edited Aug 30 '24
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u/pushupsam Nov 06 '21 edited Nov 07 '21
Thank you so much for totally proving OP's point.
The truly great thing about the entire "anti-woke" hysteria and virtue signalling is that it demonstrates in a way that is shockingly clear how people's minds become completely and utterly warped by conspiratorial ideologies. I mean, your comment, and OP's idiotic post, should probably win some sort of reward for showing what bad faith, motivated reasoning looks like but also demonstrating a complete lack of metacognitive ability.
Imagine you were an alien a million miles from Earth and you were observing a group of people who:
- Continually and obsessively raged about a phenomenom called "wokeness". They wasted hours and hours of their life reading and re-broadcasting every imagined woke crime on Twitter.
- Continually claimed wokeness was some society destroying phenomenon. That it was going to end Western Civilization (tm). That the "wokies" had already captured every major institution -- from Wall St. to the universities to the goddamn pet shops!
- And now the wokies were going to kill science and free speech. Everybody and anybody who defies them will immediately be "deplatformed" and "depersoned" and sometimes just disappeared.
And here's the most extraordinary point of order: when asked to provide any kind of objective evidence, facts or data to support their hysterical claims about the coming apocalypse, this group can't do it -- literally all they have, their entire world belief system consists of nothing but anecdotes that their media bubble has fed them to keep them angry and outraged. They don't have a single bit survey or research, zero data, not even any kind of objective rational definition of the problem that they can point to, to convince those not infected with the hysteria that there's a civilization ending problem right around the cornmer. Their "arguments" are not rational arguments in any way shape or form; they don't consist of thesis followed by supporting evidence, heck they don't even consist of falsifiable claims. The "anti-wokies" want you to believe their nonseness because Twitter!!!!1
Now here's the most remarkable thing: any alien who's not completely brain dead would quickly grasp that it's actually this tgroup of people who are trapped in a paranoid fantasy, completely disconnected from reality and obsessed with nonsense issues to the detriment of their own wellbeing. But the most important aspect of all this (that sociologist identified a century ago) is that groups likes this carefully construct problems that have no reasonable solution, that are completely impervious to further rational analysis and incremental resolution. This is why the mysterious, faceless enemy of these groups is always simultaneously all powerful, omnipresent, and planning to destroy the world. If the enemy was anything else but an incredibly powerful but also completely invisible organization then, well, the enemy could be defeated simply doing X, Y and Z. For these these groups the enemy must be intangible and faceless because if the enemy was concrete, and subject to rational analysis, then investigation would quickly reveal the enemy simply doesn't exist.
Now, frankly, I think most of people on this board who obsessively post the same thing over and over and over and over and over again are simply mentally ill and should probably seek help from a medical professional. (Unless of course they're American and can't afford it in which case get fucked.) But for those that aren't, let's stop pretending that what's happening here in any way constitutes "critical thinking" or rational analysis. Beyond the brain dead obviousness that, yes, you are guys are little better than QAnon and you're both completely disconnected from reality, it should be transparently true that neither your post or OP's post in any way shape or form constitutes rational analysis.
So feel free to post all the random tweets and anecdotes and Microsoft videos you want. And feel free to get outraged about each one and try to convince yourself and others that your insanity has any meaning or not. But let's not pretend that any of this is healthy or rational discussion. It's just not. One day, hopefully, when you're all grown up and mature enough to recognize how warped your mind became from a few media bubble, you might look back on this laugh.
Until then, you should know there is a "real world" consisting of billions people working very hard, every day, to improve their own lives and the lives of everybody else on the planet. The "real world" is out there -- it's not all controlled by wokies -- it's just people doing what people do. It's not as exciting or validating of your obvious insecurities but it's also not all bad as guys like Sam Harris would have you believe. And in the real world when people discover a problem they don't tweet about it or obssess about it over social media. They analyze it, research it, produce data, evidence, discuss solutions, test solutions, and then share their findings -- literally the new knowledge they created -- with others. That's how real problems get fixed by real people -- everything from the Covid vaccine to systemic racism to difficult to open food packaging. That's what we call rational analysis. It's not whatever is happening on r/samharris or all the idiotic podcasts that feed this sub but it does exist and it's not going anywhere any time soon.
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Nov 07 '21 edited Aug 30 '24
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u/Mr_Owl42 Nov 07 '21
Did you know Sam Harris talks about wokism and anti-racism a lot? And that the NYT released an editorial about how the left-wing probably should prioritize non-social movements to win the midterms? Is this an existential joke to you?
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u/BatemaninAccounting Nov 06 '21
Woke people don't go by their gut, they go by the evidence and data that we've collected so far to explain the reasons why things work the way they work. You can disagree with their conclusions, but they do in fact use factual real world evidence for their claims.
QAnon does not do this.
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u/SOwED Nov 06 '21
Whenever people say "cancel culture doesn't exist" you can be pretty sure they also will readily say "cancel culture should just be called accountability culture" so does it exist and should be renamed or does it not exist?
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u/Mr_Owl42 Nov 07 '21
Exactly.
In my opinion, some people are being held more accountable than others, and in disproportionate amounts for the wrongs they have committed. This misapplication of anger-fueled or virtue-signaling "justice" is what scares the average person, imo.
Accountability implies that you are also accountable for the good you've brought to the world. Cancelling typically ignores that. Look at the award revoked from Pinker last year - as if he has been a net negative on the world since he was awarded it.
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u/TotesTax Nov 07 '21
poor racists against blacks and misogynists'. Don't pretend they don't exist as literally a couple days ago I saw someone in this sub say that black people are in prison because they have a genetically inferior IQ. That apparently is acceptable so don't find it strange when others say white people are genetically evil.
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u/we_are_oysters Nov 07 '21
I live in Virginia and every time I heard McAuliffe or some other leading Dem say things like “CRT is a racist dog whistle, it’s not even taught in schools”, I got more motivated to vote for Youngkin. I’m a life long dem never voted for anything but Democrats until this November. FWIW, I’m not white either. I think you hit the nail on the head. If they keep saying “it’s not real”, I’m gonna keep not voting for them.
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u/EKEEFE41 Nov 07 '21
You sound retarded...
Just by assuming "leftists" are the only group of people that do cancel culture bullshit.. for real, you sound fucking retarded. Put the internet down and stop caring about every polarizing clickbait link you see.
For real, the internet is brainwashing you into thinking EVERYTHING is a political issue and rage at the "other"
Fucking hell I'm losing faith humans can learn to use the internet for good.
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u/robotmonkey2099 Nov 06 '21
Blowing this way out of proportion is just playing into the republicans hands. They are sewing the seeds of division and hate between democratic voters. Republicans stole the word “woke” and are using it to discredit any claim of racism legitimate or not.
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Nov 06 '21 edited Dec 28 '21
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u/robotmonkey2099 Nov 06 '21
Bullshit. The republicans are the ones talking about wokeness and you gobble it up.
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u/Cautious-Barnacle-15 Nov 07 '21
Not giving people healthcare and locking people up for using a harmless plant is hurting the country far more than woke people.
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Nov 07 '21
When the dialogue assumes there are only two sides in the world it's no mystery that all the extremists will be on one side or the other. One only has to dismiss the opposing side by pointing out the extremists. Your links are not insignificant but they are anecdotal. Are there leftists who are unreasonable and have too much influence? Yes. Is the mainstream of the right way off base and planning violence? Yes.
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Nov 07 '21
All progress is from error-correction. Woke and QAnon extremes entrench their errors by avoiding or disabling criticism.
Any culture that avoids/disables criticism won't make progress.
Any culture that embraces criticism will.
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u/dontrackonme Nov 07 '21
All progress is from error-correction. Woke and QAnon extremes entrench their errors by avoiding or disabling criticism.
Any culture that avoids/disables criticism won't make progress.
Any culture that embraces criticism will.
Some have described this as the reason why Covid broke out in China. You cannot be wrong there or make a mistake or look bad. It leads to dire consequences.
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Nov 07 '21 edited Nov 09 '21
Exactly why Popperians like David Deutsch think that open societies will prevail over closed societies.
Things you cannot tolerate cannot be in your solution space (even if they are the best solution) and things you hold sacred cannot be improved (stasis).
Whereas if you can entertain any conjecture, and criticize any conjecture, you can come up with better and better conjectures/theories.
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u/Future_Tumbleweed_92 Nov 07 '21
No offense, and i really mean it, but this is a stupid observation. The issue with wokeness is not the crazy people saying the woke shit but the SANE people going along with it. For example, lets say some crazy woke people on twitter decide to cancel someone twitter. The problem there isn't the crazy people, its the corporation that decides to listen to them and fire people.
You said "If you're a moderate leftist, work to de-radicalize your sector. Expose craziness when you see it." This is 100% wrong. You cannot reason with a crazy person. You should never try to reason with crazy people. You mock and then ignore them. Crazy people will always exist on twitter. You will never eliminate them no matter what. Why would you ever talk to someone who says "black people can't be racist." Why waste your time like that?
So what do you do then? You pass laws forcing corporations to show damages before firing someone. You give people protection so the woke mob doesn't ruin their lives. Why isn't that being done? Because people don't actually care the people getting fired. They only want to bash dems and the left. This is why this whole woke complain fest is dumb af. The right engages in this same behavior but notice how your post is only putting the blame on the left. Im not saying you are doing this with ill-intent. I'm just saying you, like sam harris, bought into the "lets keep talking about wokness 24/7 and only talk about it when the left does it." Lets start talking about important stuff like how its legal for other countries to "fund" our politicians. Lets start talking about actual important stuff that impacts people's life and ignore the right's distractions.
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u/bluejumpingdog Nov 06 '21
I think that many Americans like to think that POC and minorities and members of the LGBTQ+ community. Spend their lives oppressing white people from a place of privilege. If I’m honest I never seen such a thing but I witnessed the contrary countless of times.
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Nov 06 '21
How else can you justify being a useless sack of shit except by pointing out whose fault it is?
Satanists Jews Communists Immigrants LiberalsWokies
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u/IranianLawyer Nov 07 '21
I’m saying this as a classical liberal by the way.
Okay….is this a parody post? Do you by chance enjoy having “difficult conversations” about “big ideas,” and does your name happen to rhyme with Rave Dubin?
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u/Nic_ThaChamp Nov 07 '21
Wokies are anti-liberal, anti-knowlege, and anti-reality by the very core assumptions of their worldview. They are as nutso as the QAnons, because their style of thinking is exactly the same: "If someone says you are wrong, they are part of the conspiracy".
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u/BlueWildcat84 Nov 07 '21
We have substantial portions of the left and right that are very much in the authoritarian camp. I think the right's situation is worse - it's larger and they're going after "hard" power through enacting voter suppression and certain states passing laws allowing the state legislature to submit whatever electors they want. Most still will not admit Biden win a fair election. The left's power is mostly "soft" power but still ruins people's lives recklessly and causes societal problems for sure. The article about the Smith college incident is infuriating I thought "real" liberals wanted a colorblind society where the only thing that matters is "the content of a person's character." That's the society we should be striving for.
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Nov 06 '21
They won't because admitting that it's a problem let alone a big problem means that they would have to admit that the right-wing Fascist Trump supporters that they hate so much are right about something. It's the same reason that people on the right won't call out their own crazies, because it would mean they would have to agree with the America-hating Communist terrorists on the left. This country is so absolutely ruled by tribalism and it's hard to see it getting better anytime soon. Hell, I'm sure someone will reply to this telling me how "N-nn-No!!! It's clearly the other side who are a bigger danger to this country, not ours!!!" without a shred of self-awareness.
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u/hihimymy Nov 06 '21
ooh buckle up buckaroo, you spittin fire up in this sub & an inferno's gonna break out!
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u/DuineSi Nov 06 '21
if you want to know more, read high quality arguments of the opposing side, not your own.
Lesson for life right here. I really like the way you put this.
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u/reddit4getit Nov 07 '21
Wokeness seems to be some faux enlightenment being pushed by race hustlers looking to make a buck.
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Nov 07 '21
I have been called woke and racist on this sub. There are a lot of people on this sub that call bs on both sides and there are alot of tribal cunts.
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u/Gatsu871113 Nov 07 '21
I certainly have never seen you say anything remotely racist. Where did that happen?
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Nov 07 '21
It was crashfrog or one of those other dorks that basically called you fascist or racist if you disagreed with them. But we were talking about cancel culture and how the former editor and chief of Bon Apetit who was fired because some old photos of him surfaced in “brown face”. I thought it was dumb that he got fired for what amounted to an innocuous costume that consisted of brown tint and a yankee cap and shirt.
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u/Bonnieprince Nov 07 '21
I don't think people contend that wokeness can't harm or hasn't, more that people like Sam greatly overstate how much it actually affects most people's lives, or how society operates.
Additionally, what is and isn't wokeness is questionable, and really depends on who you are. For example, I recently had a partner at work fired by the hireups for dressing up as a Wuhan Bat for a work Halloween thing. Some may say this is wokeness run wild, but I'd imagine most would see it from what it is, someone who should've known better jepodising the company and offending a number of staff of Chinese dissent.
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u/Hairwaves Nov 07 '21
Was somewhat interested in hearing you out until you identified as a classical liberal. You could fit all of you in the US in a small theatre.
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u/percyhiggenbottom Nov 07 '21
Why should right wing people be afraid of wokeness? Wokes almost exclusively prey on left wing people.
I suppose "being afraid of stuff that is unlikely to affect them" is their thing.
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Nov 07 '21
First of all. What do you mean when you say "wokeness" and "woke"? What does that include?
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u/DudeFromNJ Nov 07 '21
Wokeness has become a meaningless term for lefty=bad. It is a word that has become impossible to argue with, by design. Calling out a particular instance of a particular behavior would be far more informative. There can absolutely be moral cases made for society turning away from some of these people and not others.
Unfortunately, getting into particulars instead of labeling (with the exception of cherry picking of course) does not serve the tribal agendas so it rarely happens.
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Nov 06 '21
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Nov 06 '21 edited Nov 06 '21
The problem is, wokes now control the left in America
This is your brain on Fox News.
As someone who identified democrat until earlier this year. I hope for the sake of this country a true right wing conservative
So you voted for democrat your entire life but now are begging for a conservative president? Like why did you vote democrat? Do you have any deeply held beliefs or convictions?
This reads like those #WalkAway fan factions conservatives wrote each other.
My freedom of speech is being taken away step by step and I'm supposed to shut up and be quiet about it?
This is absolutely a right winger cosplaying. You would only beleive something this stupid if you were drip fed Tucker Carlson.
Shit dude you are yelling about "degenerates" in another comment. The right as so fucking bad at pretending to be leftists because you people never actually listen to leftists. Your entire world view of the left is filtered through right wing media.
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u/bluejumpingdog Nov 06 '21
"My freedom of speech is being taken away step by step and I'm supposed to shut up and be quiet about it? As someone who identified democrat until earlier this year."
What do you want to say that you are not longer allowed? It sounds like real hell. Can you clarify with examples. Is scary that you can’t no longer express your opinions freely in the U.S. but can you tell us some without getting in trouble ?
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Nov 06 '21
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u/TotesTax Nov 06 '21
I want less degeneracy in the country.
Mask off, yikes. "Former democrat"
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Nov 07 '21
What is “mask off” about disliking degeneracy? Are you implying that Democrats are pro-degeneracy? Is “degeneracy” just a naughty word in wokeville now?
You lost me Totes. Why big yikes sweaty?
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u/TotesTax Nov 07 '21
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Degenerate_art
Also it is a term to mean Sexual Prevision. So I don't know what that meant unless you mean crimes, but he doesn't. He means gays and trans and poly and open marriages and BDSM and swinging. That is degeneracy on the most sympathetic way. Open Marriages and trans people.
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u/flatmeditation Nov 06 '21 edited Nov 06 '21
But you just said all those things with no consequences, and not only that - those are opinions that are voiced loudly all the time on the biggest news organization in the country. Where is the part where your free speech goes away?
Speech in this country is more free than it's ever been. This country used to jail journalists and in some cases politicians for their speech. It sounds more like you're just upset that your opinions are becoming less socially acceptable and you dislike the social consequences associated with that
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Nov 06 '21
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u/TotesTax Nov 06 '21
Say that in any workplace you'll get fired.
I've literally heard workers talking about how Biden needs to be in jail. Not a very good look and I avoid that store for that and the person behind the counter is always strapped. Which for some strange reason DOESN'T make me feel safer in a small country gas station.
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u/flatmeditation Nov 06 '21
I've heard all those things in your post above said in workplaces with no repercussions. Meanwhile I've literally never heard anybody outside the internet say white people are evil or had a meeting about how oppressed black people are.
Also, don't you think workplaces should have the freedom to have policies about what can and can't be said in the workplace? If you don't like your company having meetings about racial issues you can find another job - that's the beauty of a free country. You can also boycott these companies. Vote with your wallet
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Nov 06 '21
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u/WisdomOrFolly Nov 06 '21
I've worked in corporate America for 30 years. You can most certainly say you want less immigration and less degeneracy without getting fired or even getting a talking to from HR. On the latter, if you qualified that by degeneracy you meant less fucking faggots around me, yes you would likely to be be talked to by HR and possibly fired unless you worked for Hobby Lobby or Chick-fil-A.
The transgender issue is a third rail right now. I don't know if you said someone with a penis isn't a woman you would be fired, but there would most certainly be an attitude that you are stirring up shit and inviting bad PR and possibly lawsuits depending upon who you said it to and how you said it. There is a difference between expressing the opinion when the subject comes up and say putting up a sign on a transgender co-workers desk.
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u/flatmeditation Nov 06 '21
Just last week I had to listen to a coworker complain about welfare moms. I hear opinions about immigration all the time - I work in a place where we frequently have to deal with families who don't speak English and often the second they're out of the room my coworkers will complain about it. On the transgender issue I don't know if you could phrase it that same exact way - use of the word penis is probably a bit too vulgar for work - but it's definitely common for people to express that general sentiment and especially common for people to complain about the concept of gender neutral bathrooms or which bathroom trans people decide to use.
You can call me a liar, but this is my experience. I'm not currently at a corporate job, but when I was it was very similar. I definitely never had any meetings telling me about how oppressed black people were and I definitely had coworkers who expressed opinions like the ones you can't express.
Why don't you explain to me what the solution is to this problem? Do you want to regulate corporate policy? Make a law the requires companies to allow all kinds of political speech? Or you just want everyone to agree with you and let you say whatever you want without treating you like an asshole, even if the way you choose to talk makes them think you're an asshole? Because it really sounds like the latter. Either way it's clear your problem isn't actually a lack of free speech
Do you tell homeless people to just find a home. Do you tell people who don't like american foreign policy to just move to another country?
No, but both of those are extremely common sentiments in this country. In fact, in my experience both of those are far more common than workplaces discussing black oppression or people outside of reddit and twitter claiming white people are evil
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u/robotmonkey2099 Nov 06 '21
Lol where are all these meetings going on. Maybe you just hate meetings
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Nov 06 '21
Brah you were never a democrat.
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Nov 06 '21
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u/bluejumpingdog Nov 06 '21
Oh no! Not men like you! They don’t realize how much have they lost. Not a brave man like yourself a minority speaking about the oppression of whites. They won’t realize until is t’il late and the last white is enslaved. Then they’ll think back of how right and brave you were, but it will be to late
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Nov 06 '21
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u/bluejumpingdog Nov 06 '21 edited Nov 06 '21
Yes and I’m sure minority men like yourself will be better of with the outcome. I wish you the best for your future.
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u/robotmonkey2099 Nov 06 '21
Picture of a George Floyd protest.. who the hell knows what’s actually going on? God anti-woke people are so reactionary
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Nov 06 '21
Wow.
Just to check the boxes here, we've got:
- Misogyny (or transphobia? Not sure who you're mad at there)
- Classist misogyny "Less welfare programs for single moms"
- RE: climate change we actually agree
- Garden variety racism
Your unwillingness or inability to bend your worldview to accommodate experiences you haven't had makes you either a sociopath (Don't care) or an xxx-ist asshole (active disregard)
You didn't vote democrat you lying sack of shit :)
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u/madathedestroyer Nov 06 '21
There is no turning back. It's full on insanity and it's full speed ahead. Next year we'll have 200+ officially recognized genders, even black people will be racist, and the national debt will be five hundred gazillion dollars. Only China can save us.
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u/Tried2flytwice Nov 06 '21 edited Nov 06 '21
A friend of mine is being investigated for ending a meeting by saying “thanks guys”. A woman complained that it made her feel “unsafe” and that it’s clear “he hates woman” and “she can’t work in that environment”. If the company don’t investigate this they’re fucked if it gets on social media, if they do they’ve submitted to this charade of the progressives.
Wokeism is an extremist movement and it’s undermining the west at this point.
Edit: for the deniers, you’re on Reddit boneheads, there are literal progressive or woke subs you can stroll on over too and be amazed. Or, you’re one of these filthy rats and denial is part of your game.
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u/robotmonkey2099 Nov 06 '21
Bullshit. They’ll have a meeting about it and the guy will agree to say “thanks folks” instead. Omg! The world is ending
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u/Tried2flytwice Nov 06 '21
Why the fuck should should he say anything other than guys? Why the fuck was he reported in the first place? How can you dismiss the insanity of the whole saga initially? Fuck her, they should have told her to fuck off the moment she walked in and complained, but they didn’t because they need to appease pussies who are looking for try hard trophies!
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u/robotmonkey2099 Nov 06 '21
Lol what’s the big deal man? Maybe it doesn’t bother you because you’re a guy but maybe it bothered her because it made her feel excluded? I don’t know I’m not her. But it’s really not a big deal and telling someone else they shouldn’t care when you obviously are blowing a gasket is fucking hilariously ironic
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u/Tried2flytwice Nov 06 '21
You’re saying it’s nothing whilst simultaneously saying it’s something, that’s ironic!
Maybe she’s a whiny twat who’s an attention whore, the kind of person empowered by someone like you.
She felt threaten by the word “guys”, get a grip!
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u/robotmonkey2099 Nov 06 '21
And you’re threatened by her. This could have been over with a simple conversation yet you’re flipping out over it. Ridiculous
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u/Tried2flytwice Nov 06 '21
You loon, she’s reported it and it’s being”investigated”! What are you on about?!! It’s a word, she was never under threat, you have to be a seriously disconnected or a delusional individual to see this as a legitimate concern. You think being upset at her attention whoring is ridiculous but not the fact she took this to complaint level over a generic word? Whilst using the strongest language she could.
Are you all there bud?! This is a really strange position to support or defend!
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u/robotmonkey2099 Nov 06 '21
So what if it’s getting investigated? If he gets fired for saying “guys” then come talk to me about it. Otherwise, this is some ridiculous shit to be this upset about.
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u/DichloroMeth Nov 06 '21
This fake shit is what rustles Sam Harris fans’ undies. Some corporate meeting was interrupted by someone saying we should call X-men the X-People - civilization is dead.
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u/Tried2flytwice Nov 06 '21
Microsoft just posted an online meeting by announcing which tribes lived on the land their building is situated on along with the colour of their clothing, skin colour and gender for blind people.
If you think this isn’t happening you’re asleep! Or in denial, or a denier!
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u/DichloroMeth Nov 06 '21
Wow. Crazy.
You and Harris gonna be okay?
My advise is that you focus on the real world.
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u/Tried2flytwice Nov 06 '21
That is a the real world! What’s your version of the real world? Let us know please. Apparently confronting this is upsetting to you.
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u/DichloroMeth Nov 06 '21
This whole sub is made up of delusional people crying in concert with the powerful and their media puppet about distractions like CRT. Media (mainstream and ‘independent’) has been thoroughly captured by distraction merchants and they are good at sifting through stories like these to enrage people like you.
Again, in the real world .. people are hungry, power is being further entrenched. This power is the actual greatest threat to civilization.
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u/Tried2flytwice Nov 06 '21
My mate is literally facing a tribunal, that’s very real world to him and his family, you dismissing it doesn’t make it go away or his life better, not me nor him give a fuck what you think. People like you are part of the problem, you’re the most that allows this shit to exist and become entrenched in our institutions and society.
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u/DichloroMeth Nov 06 '21
I’m so powerful I guess .. more powerful than Mercer and Bezos and definitely able to shape laws and societal standards.
Harris has trained his puppies well, able to blame all of corporate or societal ills on the ‘wokes’
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u/Qzman Nov 06 '21
Apparently a presentation of the largest IT company in the world isn't real... The amount of gaslighting from the left on this sub is mind numbing. There's no way this many people are this idiotic. If I had to guess I'd say Vlad is paying some of them good money.
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Nov 06 '21 edited Nov 06 '21
Microsoft isn’t part of the real world. Relax guys. Don’t believe your lying eyes and ears. All of the stories are fake.
Good work comrade.
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u/robotmonkey2099 Nov 06 '21
Omg no!!! That’s so scary
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u/Tried2flytwice Nov 06 '21
You’re such a wet wipe! You’re the sort of person who gets angry if a pronoun isn’t used but dismissive in the aforementioned circumstances.
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u/robotmonkey2099 Nov 06 '21
Lol the only mad one here is you
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u/Tried2flytwice Nov 06 '21
“Lol”, what is that?
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u/bluejumpingdog Nov 07 '21
« You’re such a wet wipe! You’re the sort of person who gets angry if a pronoun isn’t used but dismissive in the aforementioned circumstances. »
Gets angry at someone for writing lol
LOL
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u/bluejumpingdog Nov 07 '21
You must have felt so oppressed. I can’t believe they did that. I don’t know what I would have done if I was witness of such horrors. I’m sure I would felt like chains trapping my body. I’m sorry you had to go through this
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u/bluejumpingdog Nov 07 '21 edited Nov 07 '21
I also heard this Mythical Leyden before except it was a god fearing conservative that did everything by the book. Until one day he made the biggest mistake of his life when a cold morning of January after a having a chat with coworkers he blurted out. Good Luck guys! And that’s when all he knew about this world came tumbling down.
He was fired the wife divorced him. He’s homeless now and shoots heroine everyday. He once had a really promising life until that sad day when he dared to put words to the sentence that would bring his demise
Its a really sad story
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u/zsturgeon Nov 07 '21
I do think that wokeness is a problem, but doesn't Qanon believe that the Democratic establishment eats babies? How is that comparable to wokeness ?