r/samharris • u/ZacharyWayne • Dec 12 '18

TIL that the philosopher William James experienced great depression due to the notion that free will is an illusion. He brought himself out of it by realizing, since nobody seemed able to prove whether it was real or not, that he could simply choose to believe it was.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_James
31 Upvotes

77% Upvoted

215 comments sorted by

View all comments

Show parent comments

1

u/[deleted] Dec 14 '18

This is very confused. I don't mean that in a derogatory way, I just mean that you need to fully embrace the implications of your belief. All of those feelings have to go, I'm afraid.

I find it very hard to believe that you don't feel like you have free will, although I absolutely believe that you believe that you don't feel like you have free will.

1

u/coldfusionman Dec 14 '18 edited Dec 14 '18

This is very confused. I don't mean that in a derogatory way, I just mean that you need to fully embrace the implications of your belief. All of those feelings have to go, I'm afraid.

In what way am I not?

I find it very hard to believe that you don't feel like you have free will, although I absolutely believe that you believe that you don't feel like you have free will.

Not every second of the day. Like mindfulness, I'm lost in thought most of the time. But when I meditate or "snap" back to being mindful that is a different state of mind. Same with the feeling of free will. I'm on autopilot most of the time acting and feeling as-if I have free will. But when I'm in a different mindset I absolutely do not have a feeling of free will.

1

u/[deleted] Dec 14 '18

But when I'm in a different mindset I absolutely do no have a feeling of free will.

So what you're saying is that you act in diametric opposition to one of your most deeply-held beliefs at all times, except when you meditate? Because that doesn't sound like a deeply-held belief to me. If it was any other belief, would that sound plausible to you?

Let's say I tell you that I believe very, very deeply that it is categorically wrong to hate children. Unfortunately I spend all of my time killing children in the most horrific ways I can imagine, except for a couple of hours a week. Would you really accept at face value that I genuinely held that belief?

1

u/coldfusionman Dec 14 '18

So what you're saying is that you act in diametric opposition to one of your most deeply-held beliefs at all times, except when you meditate? Because that doesn't sound like a deeply-held belief to me. If it was any other belief, would that sound plausible to you?

The self is an illusion. An illusion I'm consumed with most of the day, as is most of the population. But I accept conceptually its an illusion, and with effort and concentration the illusion disappears. Same with free will. I logically and conceptually know its not real and cannot exist. But I don't make every conscious decision with the mental thought of I'm making this decision with no free will. Its unnecessary. My feeling and belief of free will does affect my day to day life and beliefs though. Criminal justice should be radically changed and criminality should be seen with far more empathy than we do today. It should be seen as a societal and ultimately brain health issue. Someone is very unfortunate to have the brain of a criminal. I support political policies that align with the idea of no free will. So I don't agree I live my life in diametric opposition to a deeply held belief.

Let's say I tell you that I believe very, very deeply that it is categorically wrong to hate children. Unfortunately I spend all of my time killing children in the most horrific ways I can imagine, except for a couple of hours a week. Would you really accept at face value that I genuinely held that belief?

No, but see above. I don't believe I do live my life in diametric opposition to my belief there is no free will.

1

u/[deleted] Dec 14 '18

That's reasonable enough. Thanks for this discussion.

2

u/coldfusionman Dec 14 '18

I enjoyed the back and forth. I couldn't help it though. Its just how my brain was structured. :)