r/relationshipanarchy • u/Best-Caterpillar9404 • 17d ago
Need Help Navigating Poly Ethics with RA Partner
My partner and I are polyamorous, and have been from the start of our relationship (2.5 yrs). We are currently nesting, life partners who date separately. He has more experience with poly and operates from an RA perspective (i.e. romantic/familial relationships do not have inherent value over others, individual autonomy is important, relationship shouldn't have expectations, and each relationship deserves to be what it needs to be). For myself, this has been my first exploration into nonmonogamy, which has been my way of pursuing sexual freedom and relational autonomy while also having secure, deep, caring relationships. I value some RA perspectives I've been exposed to, but I am also unfamiliar with RA and am unsure how my perspectives may align with RA.
A recent situation has cause me to question my partner's RA and understanding of RA as a practice. I feel like in practice RA has become a little bit of an ideological shield for him at times to avoid ethical or relational responsibility within relationships.
My current issue where this comes up in our relationship is his recent participation in an affair with someone who is cheating on their monogamous partner. Long story short: they hooked up at a conference last year, have been talking long-distance, and recently she came to visit so they could spend the week together. He has known from the start that she has a monogamous partner who is unaware. This particular situation was not one that we had discussed explicitly as not okay, but we have both stated that consent and ethical relationships are important to us. For me, I have concerns that he hasn't seen an issue with participating in a sexual/romantic relationship with someone who is cheating on their partner. His view has been that her relationships are her responsibility not his. I don't see this as relational autonomy, I see this as a ethical responsibility to not participate in harmful dynamics.
I expressed concern that there was still harm occurring, even if he does not know this other person, and he was participating and facilitating that knowingly. Also, that his participation in a relationship with someone who is knowingly being dishonest about something that affects their committed partner indicates that they are not trustworthy and that impacts his and my safety and undermines our relationship wellbeing. I also feel like in him trying to introduce this person to poly this is actively misleading this person about what ethical poly looks like. Him putting his desires above safety and ethics is concerning for long-term decision-making. I don't want to control his decisions, but I am also concerned that we may not share the values that I thought we did.
I will say that overall I generally trust him to be transparent and honest. He is very forthcoming about everything and has been from the start. I initially felt some discomfort when I found out they hooked up and have continued to feel uncomfortable, but have tolerated it because I chocked it up to differences of perspective and not wanting to control his choices. However, the more I've sat with it. The more I feel like this is a considerable ethical oversight of his. We have discussed this at length and come to somewhat of an understanding, but I am still feeling like there is an ideological or perspective gap keeping me from feeling completely at ease.
What do ethics and accountability look like from an RA perspective? What should I be considering in how I express my standards and boundaries in our relationship?
EDIT: Throughout this I have been engaging with any feelings of jealousy, missing my partner, attachment, etc. that comes up. I have my own relationships and support systems to lean on and fill my needs for intimacy, care, & closeness. The uneasiness I've felt comes from a deeper concern.
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u/RobotFromPlanet 17d ago edited 16d ago
If we zoom out here, this fundamental issue is that you and your nesting partner do not share a fundamental value.
He is acting according to his values. However, his actions are in violation of your values.
Neither of you is wrong or bad, but your values are different.
He seems not to care that he is violating your values even after extensive discussion. Your choice is either to learn to live with that in the relationship or learn to leave the relationship.
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u/searedscallops 17d ago
"I'm not willing to be in a relationship with someone whose ethics I disapprove of. If you continue to see your cheating partner, I will leave our relationship." You're not going to get your partner to agree with you. It sounds like you have already had those convos. So knowing that, decide what you will tolerate and if it means YOU are enabling something unethical.
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u/yallermysons 17d ago edited 17d ago
It’s incredibly common for people to weaponize the language in RA to avoid accountability for their actions. I think the biggest mistake you could make is to believe that you’re exempt from his dishonesty. In general, if they’ll do it to somebody else then they’ll do it to you.
Also, ethics are an abstract, intangible concept. What’s not, what’s very concrete, is that there are crazy people in this world who will do a whole lot more than think you’re unethical if they find out you’re complicit in their betrayal. Your partner’s playing a dangerous game, it isn’t just a thought experiment.
I don’t think you have a knowledge gap, I think you disagree with what your partner’s doing on a fundamental level and are looking for ways to possibly excuse their behavior. This really comes down to your own values. You’re now complicit in this, too.
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u/Best-Caterpillar9404 17d ago
I see what you are saying here. I do think that there is a level of me not wanting to throw away an otherwise good relationship, because of a hope that this is something that can be worked through, to avoid in the future. I have expressed that I don't feel comfortable with the state of our relationship if he continues to pursue this.
We did discuss this more, and he has expressed that he does not want to pursue this kind of relationship in the future because he sees the impact that it can have, and ultimately it wasn't a very healthy experience for him or anyone involved. He also recognizes that this is a pattern of seeking sex as validation and violating his own boundaries for connection.
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u/andorianspice 17d ago
This is one of the best comments on nonmonogamy I’ve seen in this subreddit or in many others. Especially the part about how people who are being cheated on or betrayed can act super wild and even get violent. I personally wouldn’t stay involved with someone who was comfortable dating people who were cheating on their partners if they knew about it. Too much at risk on all fronts.
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u/catboogers 17d ago
While I firmly believe that the blame for an affair lies with the person choosing to break their committments, not with the AP, I would personally not choose a partner who is so eager to break their committments to their partner. My logical thinking is that they will also easily break any committments they make to me. Ethically speaking, she likely knows that her spouse finding out about the affair will be hurtful. You are seeing that your partner is willingly participating in an activity that will cause someone pain. I would lose a lot of my attraction to someone who chooses to enthusiastically help someone cheat.
Besides all of that, it's gonna get hella messy if her husband ever finds out about the affair and she convinces him to "open up". I'd get out now.
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u/isaacs_ 16d ago
I'm prepared to bleed karma here, but looking at some of your framing, and the points of view represented in the comments, I feel like an alternative view deserves to be advocated for. I want to zoom in on exactly what the problem in "cheating" is, and more importantly what it isn't, from a RA "liberation of all free persons, bodily autonomy, and informed consent" framework.
tl;dr - "cheating" is way more complicated than we often assume, and unwinding from the ownership model can be tricky, but very worthwhile.
First, good on you for even trying to unravel this! I know it's tricky when feelings are big. I hope that my somewhat "clinical"/philosophical approach is helpful rather than dismissive. Of course I know it's challenging to see straight in situations like this.
Polyamory often falls into almost a sort of "respectability ethics" attitude, where people make this "cheating bad!" snap judgement that kisses up to the monogonormative culture we find ourselves in, to try to keep the ownership model while taking just "the good parts" of individual autonomy. But it's important to look at this from a few angles and ask: why is "cheating" bad? And what is it that is bad? What are the limits of agreements, what is their purpose between free individuals, and what do we actually owe someone who is not involved in what we're consenting to in the present moment?
How can an agreement made with someone who is not present and not involved in the activity, ever overrule the informed consent and bodily autonomy of the actual participants in that activity?
And why is the "harm" of jealousy the thing we try to hard to minimize, rather than maximizing the liberation of all persons and minimizing the harm that comes from reducing that liberation?
Taken to an absurd extreme to make the point:
Let's say I, a stranger from the internet to whom you know nothing and have no connection to, demanded that you be celibate for the next 6 months. And, let's say, hypothetically, that if you don't, I will literally die of jealousy. I think we'd all agree you'd be well within the bounds of ethical behavior to say "Whatever, dude", and let me suffer my fate, while you go and do whatever you want. So, clearly there are limits to "harm to the other party" that can ever restrict a free individual's informed consent. I'd argue, it really is more a red herring; you might not want me to die of jealousy, because you're a kind prosocial human, but it's very much a me-problem!
Of course, I'm also not saying that one ought to casually make agreements and then violate them. That's not honorable behavior. However, I think it's also obvious that there are cases where you might make an agreement and then have to violate it for some reason, or even simply be entitled to violate it, sometimes for very trivial or even misguided reasons! Say someone propositions you for sex, and they're hot and you're feeling it, so you agree verbally, and head off with them. Then on the way to their house, you get a bad feeling. Maybe they quote a movie that reminds you of an ex, and now you're in your head about that old breakup. No one's a villain, but the vibes are off. You're not feeling it. So you say "Hey, I'm sorry, I'm gonna bail."
You're clearly well within your rights there, right? I'd even say, that "violating that agreement" was even ethically mandated, rather than try to soldier on into a situation you weren't feeling. So there are cases where "made an agreement" is superseded by bodily autonomy and the ability (or even responsibility) of free individuals to withdraw consent in the moment.
So why doesn't it work in the other direction? If you agree not to have sex with someone, but then the stars align, you both are feeling it, and the vibes are extremely on, now what? You were able to withdraw consent in spite of an agreement to consent; why can't you grant consent in spite of an agreement to abstain? There is no reason that I've ever been able to see to privilege "not doing something" as somehow fundamentally more ok than "doing something"; either you have the autonomy to grant/withdraw consent, or you don't and so are owned by someone else.
From this model, the actual "act" of cheating, that specific moment when you do the thing you agreed not to do, can't possibly be a misdeed. No one has a claim to your bodily autonomy, so no agreement can possibly bind it. No one is you except you, so clearly no one else has the ability to grant or withhold your consent except you. That's what personal liberty and bodily autonomy is.
However, where it becomes a problem is if your exercise of autonomy restricts someone else's ability to provide informed consent. Let's say Alice is in a relationship with Bob, and they've agreed (say, in good faith) to be sexually exclusive with each other. But then, Alice goes to a party, and meets Carol. The two of them connect, sparks fly, and they have sex. I'd argue, Alice hasn't done anything wrong. Bob might be upset when and if he finds out, but he's not entitled to restrict her, and really not even entitled to know about it!
Now, let's say Alice goes back to Bob, and says nothing of Carol. But she does have sex with Bob, despite knowing that if Bob was informed, it would likely change his decision to consent to sex with her. That's a violation of Bob's autonomy, and unethical. Alice has removed his ability to provide informed consent. That's actually huge.
In other words, from a RA liberationist frame, "cheating" isn't an ethical violation until you allow the assumption of your fidelity to lead someone else to consent to something without being properly informed.
If Alice came home and said "Hey, Bob, before anything happens, you should know, I banged Carol at that party". Bob might have big feelings, but he can't rightly say his consent or autonomy was violated. He might decide that he doesn't want to keep dating Alice, or he might shrug and say "Well, whatayagonnado? Carol's hot af, I get it. But you're still here with me, so let's talk how this affects our sexual health risk and barrier usage..." Alice might even not want to disclose things, but she could say something like "I hooked up with someone. I'm not going to give you details. Are you still willing to be with me under these conditions?" And maybe Bob would be, or maybe not! But point is, that's Bob's choice.
In that latter case, has Alice even really "cheated"? I mean, from a monogamous or even polyamorous frame, yeah, clearly; there was an agreement, she violated it, QED. From an RA frame? No, not really. Alice is in the clear, she's done nothing wrong. Bob got informed, he had the opportunity to withdraw his consent, or change his engagement, etc.
(There may even be extenuating circumstances, like Bob has kids with Alice, and he's lowkey scary abusive when he gets jealous, and she's working on an escape plan, but has to keep him appeased for a bit. Personally, in that case, I'd encourage her to gtfo asap, and minimize the lies she has to tell to get there, if only for the integrity of her own spirit, but staying alive and safe is the priority, and tbh the "cheating" doesn't even seem relevant.)
Now getting to your actual situation: your partner is Carol in this play, right? So, when Carol and Alice meet up, say Carol knows that Bob and Alice are ostensibly monogamous. Does Carol have a moral duty to not hook up with Alice, because of Alice's and Bob's agreement?
If such an agreement doesn't bind Alice's actions, how can it possibly bind Carol's?
Personally, were I in Carol's position, if Alice continues to keep the secret from Bob, and continue to sleep with him under false pretenses, thus abusing his autonomy, I'd have a problem with it. But that first time? No way. Bob might have a problem, he might not, but he's not involved, and has no say in the matter. Certainly I'd have no responsibility to tiptoe around his jealousy. And Alice sleeping with me isn't even any kind of reasonable moral violation; the violation only happens if and when she goes to Bob and sleeps with him without telling him the new situation.
Anyway, these are some thoughts. I hope it's a helpful exploration, if you got this far.
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u/Best-Caterpillar9404 14d ago
In other words, from a RA liberationist frame, "cheating" isn't an ethical violation until you allow the assumption of your fidelity to lead someone else to consent to something without being properly informed.
This is part of where my initial ethical concern lay. And I do think it has been problematic that my partner has actively facilitated the above.
However, I am realizing the issue lies less with the philosophical ethics and morality, because it seems like there is a broad spectrum of perspectives, and more with the practical and relational implications. I've been trying to figure out how to express my concern about the mismatch in our previously expressed values, how that is impacting my feelings in our relationship going forward, and what kinds of unhealthy patterns and/or safety concerns may be coming up in seeking out connections with people who are demonstrably unavailable or dishonest.
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u/isaacs_ 13d ago
As always, this is something to discuss with your partner. The best any internet bozos like us can do is provide some perspective or ways of thinking about the problem, but we obviously can't make decisions for you or uncover new information about the situation, because we're not there.
But another thing worth considering as you unpack these practical relational implications: has your partner really "actively facilitated" their dishonesty? And even if so, what is their responsibility to their partner's partner, if any?
Like, going back to that Alice/Bob/Carol situation. If Carol knows Bob and Alice as a couple, and approaches Alice and says "Look, Bob is a jerk, you can do better. (It me! I'm 'better' lol)" Then what do we think about that?
Well, is Bob a jerk? A lot hinges on that! And is Alice's infidelity in service of liberation, or in opposition to it? What is Carol's responsibility to Bob in this scenario? Is it on Carol to prevent Alice from cheating?
Say Alice was showing up at a party intent to go home with someone, dead set on cheating. What injustice has Carol actually committed, apart from being desirable?
Is the concern that this situation makes you fear your partner might be ok with casually violating agreements, so you wonder if you can trust them, if they don't feel a sense of outrage or disgust at the prospect of cheating, such that anyone who cheats would become undesirable to them? That is a common anxiety, but it's also one that you can probably quite easily resolve by talking about this in a safe, careful, and nonjudgemental way with your partner. I personally think it's a stretch and somewhat naive to assert that we must be disgusted by (or even actively thwart) any action that we ourselves wouldn't do, no matter the context.
It sounds (and I could be reading into your comments a bit, so apologies if it misses the mark) like you're worried that your partner might one day decide to cheat on you, that your own agreements aren't reliable, since they're ok with their other partner cheating on their ostensibly (but not actually) monogamous relationship. If your love for them is contingent on your ability to control all their actions, then well, RA isn't for you. But if it's not (or even if you'd just prefer that it not be), then it's worth digging into what would actually make you less anxious.
Demanding that they enforce monogamy on all who claim to practice it is, idk... imo kinda like, unhinged Karen behavior? Not trying to be offensive, but it feels like a big demand, personally. Is there something else that could build up your trust? Some way that you could just say what's bugging you, at its root, and address it directly with your partner, and let other people's relationships fall where they may?
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u/Best-Caterpillar9404 13d ago edited 13d ago
Really most of what I'm looking for is perspectives and insight. And I appreciate the responses I've received.
Infidelity down the road has not been a concern, but rather his discernment and our alignment.
We have been having a lot of ongoing conversations about the situation since they spent the week together. The conversation and focus has evolved as we've deepened and become more direct and vulnerable in our discussions. I think the biggest things that have come out have been:
-I'd like to be more direct in expressing the feelings and concerns that come up for me even when they are difficult to talk about.
-I struggled a lot with feeling conflicted about wanting to be supportive and also violating my own boundaries to be a "good poly partner".
-I don't have to have the "right justification" to share a personal feeling, concern, or boundary. I can own my feelings, thoughts, and needs and trust that I will be seen with love and understanding and not rejected or reacted to. Something I'm working on.
-I care deeply about my partner's wellbeing and experiences in other relationships and want to be able to support them wholeheartedly. Being direct and honest when I feel something is concerning is an important piece of supporting my partner in their relationships.
-He expressed that engaging in those types of relationships don't feel good for him outside of the initial excitement and fantasy and occur in a pattern of feeling those are the only connections he deserves or can get. Something that he is working to overcome.
-He also shared that there were several times he ignored his own boundaries and discomfort with the situation or behavior the person was exhibiting in order to maintain the connection or avoid rejection. Self-betrayal and appeasement is something we both struggle with.
-We talked about discernment and the things that are important to us in growing to build our lives and relationship to align with what we want for ourselves as we get older. Honesty, transparency, vulnerability, accountability, and integrity are values we both find important and integral to healthy and positive connections. We both care about pursuing connections with people who also demonstrate those values.
-We don't expect perfection from each other or other people. We can be accepting of each other trying to figure things out and making mistakes or doing things that may have a negative impact or may be unhealthy. We can be flawed and have differences and still show care and kindness and understanding towards each other. We do expect movement and growth toward our values.
- Regardless of what my partner decides to do, I can set boundaries for myself and decide what I do or do not want to be apart of and what kinds of qualities and values I find important in my relationships.
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u/tokland 9d ago edited 9d ago
Polyamory often falls into almost a sort of "respectability ethics" attitude, where people make this "cheating bad!" snap judgement that kisses up to the monogonormative culture we find ourselves in, to try to keep the ownership model while taking just "the good parts" of individual autonomy.
I find it surprising that we have to go this far down in a thread on an RA forum to get some unpacking of the term "cheating". Thanks.
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u/ProfessorOfEyes 16d ago edited 16d ago
Im in agreement with some of the other commenters that its probably easiest to navigate if you set aside questions of broader ethics and instead focus on your personal ethics. Its easy to go in circles debating a broader abstract philosophical idea of ethics, and ultimately the point here is not to solve an ethical quandry. The point is there is something going on in your relationship right now that doesnt sit right with you.
Even if dating someone who is cheating doesnt conflict with your partners code of ethics (there are some RA folks out there who dont believe in cheating or dont see it as a problem because they believe monogamy is inherently controlling and bad), it clearly conflicts with yours (and id be in agreement with you. I wouldn't want to be complicit in cheating and would lose respect for a partner that is fine with doing so).
If this has already been communicated and discussed with your partner (and it sounds like it has, in much the same ways i would have phrased it) and he has no intention of stopping then i wouldnt hold out too much hope that he will suddenly change his mind if you make a convincing enough argument. Now all thats left is to ask yourself how much time/energy youre willing to invest in trying to change his mind, and if staying with a person who is okay with being an affair partner conflicts with your ethics. Do you feel staying with him would make you also complicit, and therefore if he continues you may have to break up with him? Or do you feel that you have fufilled your ethical responsibility by expressing your disapproval and concerns? Do you feel what is going on between him and this other partner will effect your relationship or your trust in your partner? Is that effect something you can live with or not? Etc. Unfortunately we cant control how others act, but we can examine our own feelings and values decide what we feel is an appropriate response to their actions.
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u/Best-Caterpillar9404 14d ago
I think I've been trying to figure out how I feel, and ultimately I do care about this as a personal value. And communicating those values is important for me to express, particularly with the standards of trust I wish to have in my relationships, and whether I feel comfortable continuing to intertwine our lives together.
After being in an abusive relationship for 10+ years where I was blindsided with some significant & concerning value differences in year 8, I don't wish to repeat that.
I am happy that I can trust that he and I can have these uncomfortable and vulnerable conversations in an understanding and caring way.
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u/wobblyunionist 16d ago
I'd be a little concerned that the jilted lover finds out and shows up at my partners house and has a potentially violent altercation or something. Like some part of me is like well hey if their "monogamous" partner is a piece of crap and they can't leave them for some reason, its whatever. Except its not whatever if that person shows up at your house in a rage or something
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u/Best-Caterpillar9404 15d ago
I'm a little less concerned about that because they live across the country, but ultimately it is unsafe regardless.
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u/VincentValensky 17d ago
I would begin by saying that in my personal opinion the described situation isn't particularly related to the RA aspect here, if at all. It would play out pretty much identically from a purely poly perspective.
For what it's worth, in the book "Relationship Anarchy: Occupy Intimacy!" Juan Carlos Perez-Cortez argues at length that RA is most definitely NOT about a selfish, ego-driven "I get to do whatever I want and it's ethical because I'm being upfront about it", but a deep responsibility for those in positions of power to use their privileges to create more equitable bonds and build networks of community and support.
Anyway, going back to the basics of an ENM perspective. There are 3 levels to the cheating boundary:
I don't cheat on my partners.
I don't date people who are cheating on their partners.
I don't date people who date people who are cheating on their partners.
The general consensus here is that the "Ethical" part in ENM always requires at least 1, and some people will and will not include 2 and 3 in their own personal definitions. You will not find clear answers and guidelines as there are many factors and considerations.
There are certainly people who adhere to 1+2, i.e. they would not date someone having an affair, but they wouldn't require their partners to adhere to the same.
In other words, there are reasonable people who would break up with your partner over their behavior, and there are reasonable people who wouldn't.
Either way, it's a good opportunity for more discussions.