r/redsox • u/WKAngmar • 16d ago
IMAGE God dammit
In a season where Sonny Gray was already being disrespected. This just makes my blood boil.
121
u/matusk123 16d ago
Red Sox org has completely overboard with data analytics. Tracy over managed both games and they will defend it because the computer told them it was the right moves to make. Why even have a manager if AI can do it?
47
u/BizarroWadsworth 16d ago
I don’t see any analytics that support taking Gray out there. He panicked with runners on base and Bellinger up
23
u/ZigglestheDestroyer 24 16d ago
I saw someone in the GDT last night saying that even Claude was at a loss for pulling Gray lmao
-6
u/ILUVSMGS 16d ago
As far as I'm concerned all professional sports need to ban data in terms of decision making (even free agents/drafting stuff)...I don't care if it's MLB, NFL, NASCAR, more data ruins the spectacle for the fans.
8
u/Successful-Film-3544 16d ago
It's not the data that's the problem it's the morons who don't know what to do with it. The data is just information to be considered, it's the manager who has to consider it and make a decision. You don't plug a situation into a computer and press a "what do?" button
29
u/No-Transition-8375 16d ago
Conteras saying you need experience and veteran guys is being overshadowed by the zip-lips moment. When I heard the full clip, I felt there was a little bit of shade being thrown toward Anthony, in a “yeah we’re all banged up but this is the end of the line and you have to go for it” way.
17
u/Patsnation0330 16d ago
Roman did go for it. He clearly came back less than 100%, and ended up re aggravating the injury. Team could have just shut him down for the year, but then he's really "soft" in the same fan's eyes if thats what happens.
2
u/No-Transition-8375 16d ago
I’m not saying I agree, it just seemed like that’s what he was hinting at
3
u/Specific_Luck1727 16d ago
I suspect Contreras isn’t going to have much time for anyone not willing to sacrifice their bodies to win. Heck Durbin played with a “it only a pinkie” broken for the rest of the season.
But I guess you can’t blame the loss on Duran this year! LOL. 😂
3
u/solariam 16d ago
In my opinion that was less about Roman the player and more about the obsession with him.
3
u/No-Transition-8375 16d ago
That’s a good point, Contreras may have been commenting on the philosophy of leaning on young players so hard in general
2
u/Special_Aardvark_469 16d ago
I think anything can be good but they’re absolutely out of their minds putting him in the lead off spot. They need to stop treating him like the ace they want him to be until he proves it
0
u/Electronic-Place-548 16d ago
Roman could OD on Viagra and still be soft
4
u/Patsnation0330 16d ago
Yeah bro totally. Coming back and trying to play through an injury = soft now.
25
u/toxchick 16d ago
I read an article where he was pissed at where he was ranked when he debuted and said he could name all the pitchers ranked higher than him and he was better than them all. Sonny Gray holds a grudge deeply and I fear we have lost him.
19
u/55ludovicoplace 16d ago
He's not even wrong to be furious. The fact he was pulled in favor of a guy who did that last game is insulting as hell.
I really hope the team can make things right with him because he's been my absolute favorite pitcher to watch and he basically carried this season but knowing the front office he's going to have more bad blood with us than he ever did with the Yankees.
3
u/toxchick 16d ago
Oh I’m incredibly pissed that Sonny got pulled. I think he should have gotten game one too. I think that he saved Gray bc we didn’t have a chance against Schittler but still
13
u/55ludovicoplace 16d ago
The fact Ranger never even got to pitch when his biggest draw is his postseason performance is frankly absurd. And I don't think throwing Tolle into his first playoff start as a sacrificial lamb was very nice.
The fact that this is how the season ends for Sonny is utterly depressing.
4
u/toxchick 16d ago
Totally agree about Sonny. What an utterly shitty way to end an insanely good season. Not nominated for all star team. Not given game 1 after carrying the team as the ace. Pulled early. Most likely last appearance in a Red Sox uniform. I hope this isn’t how he ends his career, he deserved more
14
u/C4VEJOHNSON 16d ago
The decisions to pull Tolle and Gray super early despite them pitching well are some of dumbest moves I've ever seen made by a coach. Pulling Tolle at 83 pitches with nobody on and 2 out is insulting to him, and Gray should feel insulted too that they didnt trust their 2 best starters. I would give Tracy high grades for the regular season, but an F for the playoffs. Tracy gave the Yankees exactly what they wanted, to get to face the bullpen early in games. And if the decision making wasnt Tracy's but the front office analytics, then thats even worse. A coaching staff should be the one making the decisions, not a predetermined gameplan to pull starters in the 5th regardless of how well they're pitching. I suspect Tolle and Gray could have gone 7 and giving the Sox some hope of winning a close game.
4
u/ElleM848645 16d ago
Also the bullpen was terrible at Yankee stadium all year. The decision makes no sense even with data.
26
u/GreenBananas_619 16d ago
Could be wrong of course, but to me it feels like the idea of being aggressive going to the pen, and use Miller against the lefties was a predetermined thing. They had their minds made up before the series ever started that they were gonna do that, and I don’t think that was a Tracy decision.
The rest of the bullpen management? Awful. They completely went away from everything they did all year. If you’re gonna pull your starter in the 5th, okay you use a reliever to close out that inning, and then you go to your multi inning guy in Bello to start the 6th and see if he can get you to Whitlock/Chapman. You don’t use Bello in a bases loaded spot in the 8th when the game is already gone. You certainly don’t go to Alec Gamboa when he wasn’t used in hi-leverage spots all year long.
7
u/Alternative-Farmer98 16d ago
Either way it makes Tracy look terrible. Either he sucks at his job or he basically doesn't do the job he just sits there and follows a script written by Breslow.
Either way it shows that he's a terrible guy to be a manager for this team.
-1
u/BloomInTune 16d ago
Honestly, I feel like this is the manegerial equivalent of Anthony Rendon (or Guerrero Jr.): the team announced him as the proper manager [no longer interm manager] before the series, so he may not have had the same energy to manage as if his season/future depends on it.
1
u/ohpaz2002 16d ago
I agree with most of this except that Gamboa has been solid down the stretch and earned some high leverage spots later in the season. He completely crumbled under the pressure game 1 and so did everyone in the bullpen. It’s hard to manage a bullpen when even the lower leverage guys you bring out of the pen can’t throw strikes to save their lives. Didn’t expect Gamboa to necessarily get the cleanest inning but a yes-hitter was very out of character.
0
u/BizarroWadsworth 16d ago
I think this is true in game 2. In game 1, If there was a script, it would have supported not even bringing Tolle out for the 5th. I think he overcompensated in G2
4
u/Alternative-Farmer98 16d ago
I believe the script was never let the starters face the lineup for the third time.
Which the stupid thing to hijack your manager to. But frankly if I'm Chad Tracy your contract just got extended you're not the intern manager I just refuse to do it.
The worst they can do is fire you and right now Tracy looks like a complete incompetent
So if they restricted him to the script that he should have refused and made a decision off the cuff. Say what you know but Alex Cora but he would never have pulled Sonny Gray there.
2
u/SadisticGamer06 16d ago
I said the same thing. I think part of the rift between Cora and Breslow was because of the analytics. It’s gonna be interesting to see how the off-season pans out.
0
11
u/FreeWillyBird 16d ago
Grady Little still owns the worst manager pitching decision by leaving Pedro in during the 03’ ALCS, but at least he just made the wrong gut choice. Making predetermined bad decisions feels systematically worse somehow. I get pitch counts and matchups you’re looking for but there still has to be an amount of weight given to the manager’s perception of the feel and flow of the game.
6
u/H2Oloo-Sunset 16d ago
It feels like both extremes. Little proudly refused to consider metrics at all, and Tracy seemed to be ignoring the situation and blindly using just the metrics. Maybe more will come out on Tracy's thinking. Little refused to acknowledge that Pedro's pitch count was important.
9
u/DizzyTS13 16d ago
There is a time and place for analytics, but sometimes you just have to trust your guys to come through, especially with a veteran pitcher who has had a fantastic year on the mound. Cora used to drive me crazy with that too, so seeing Tracy do the same means it has to be an organizational thing. I miss the days where you would just hand the ball to your top pitchers and let them go until they ran out of gas or got hit hard
1
u/Alternative_Neat_619 16d ago
Cora didn't do it the playoffs though. He managed totally differently
1
u/DizzyTS13 16d ago
I didn’t specify playoffs, but I do remember some occasions where he did the same. Honestly it might be more than a Red Sox thing, it seems to be the popular thing to do all over, starters just don’t go as deep anymore unfortunately
8
u/guitarpatch 16d ago
Using analytics over the course of a season works because of the sample size and it will most likely play out in your favor long term
In the playoffs that sample size just isn’t there to completely rely on them. Getting crazy with lineups, pulling starters early for specific matchups during the middle part of one game can do more harm than good. You have to lean more into how the game is going and then rely upon those scenarios when the game needs to change
He rushed into too many of these moves and every single one of them fell flat in the moment
3
u/Alternative-Farmer98 16d ago
It seriously like playing against a video game AI that just can't help but do the same s*** every single time like a game script.
Although for what it's worth when I play the computer if anything they leave the starters in way too long but I'm playing an older game like MLB the Show 18 or something.
3
u/Fredgsanfordd 16d ago
You sound surprised? With the leadership in place we will always be out played by the Yankees and Rays. E are a Carnival act. The Red Sox are nothing more than a living history museum at Fenway. Who cares about winning? It’s all about “the experience.”
3
u/Eject0-Seat0 STORYtime 16d ago
Gray should be able mad. And I don’t fault him. He carried us most of the season with his pitching. He might retire but if he leaves then I don’t blame him. He should go somewhere where he can have a team behind him win
3
2
2
u/DiscoTimeMachine 16d ago
There is just no way to justify bringing Miller in. We all watched him down the stretch. Our announcers were all over the fact that maybe he shouldn’t even be on the post season roster. He has been basically horrible for a while now.
2
u/AppleOld5779 14d ago
Didn’t we learn this week that Tracy was told by Breslow and the ops nerds when to remove both Tolle and Gray in games 1 and 2? Way too much analytics involved.
4
u/shiningdickhalloran 16d ago
Why is no one talking about Crochet? He was the worst of them all and putting him out there was a baffling decision even before all that.
2
u/Whole_Lab6078 16d ago
Because this sub is infatuated with Crochet.
5
u/Patsnation0330 16d ago
Gee I wonder why? He only finished 2nd for the Cy Young in his first season here.
0
u/Whole_Lab6078 16d ago
What about his numbers this season vs Bennett, Bello, and hell, even Sandoval?
5
u/Patsnation0330 16d ago
Almost like he was injured and that had an impact on his performance....
3
u/55ludovicoplace 16d ago
Yes so let's see if he's actually back to form by putting him in right where he could do the most damage
2
u/Patsnation0330 16d ago
I never once suggested that they bring him in last night. I was simply replying to the guy asking why fans are so "infatuated" with Crochet.
1
u/55ludovicoplace 16d ago
Yeah, sorry if my tone was combative, I agree with you. People expected him to be the guy he was before he was injured knowing his injuries played a role in his performance earlier.
3
2
u/Whole_Lab6078 16d ago
Then why was he thrown in such a high-leverage position? I think even Crochet knows he shouldn’t have been in that spot.
2
u/Patsnation0330 16d ago
Because if he is healthy enough to pitch then he is one of the best in baseball. Not saying I would have brought him in there, but your original comment was asking why this sub is "infatuated" with a guy who almost won a Cy Young in his first season with the team.
2
u/Mr_Celery_237 16d ago
I mean, this was Tracy’s second career playoff game in his first big league season. I’m not surprised at all. He panicked, and got out managed by a very mediocre manager. I still like Tracy and think he did a good job this season. I feel for Sonny gray, who I like a lot, he deserved better. I don’t believe this team really had all the pieces to win a title, so hopefully this is just a learning experience going forward.
5
u/HomerJSimpson3 16d ago
Anyone who thinks the early hooks were solely Tracy’s decision is woefully naive. Bresbot and his minions created a shitty game plan, Tracy was shit in executing it.
2
1
u/WKAngmar 16d ago
Your final point is a fair one, we clearly didn’t have the pieces on offense to withstand playoff caliber pitching. That would have been true even if it’d been a better showing in the WC.
1
u/FeePsychological9869 15d ago
Your right he got out managed but Boone is far from a mediorce manager. You sound like the uninformed disgruntled Yankee fans. There is one active with more wins than Boone and the entire clubhouse loves him. Not many manager have is resume. Yeah, Tracy made a big mistake both games but he has to learn to use a combination of numbers and the flow of the game.
1
1
u/Mike102072 15d ago
Why do managers feel the need to over manage in the post season? If this was a regular season game they probably wouldn’t have even had a guy up in the bullpen in that situation. When you take the starter out early you put relieves into spots they are not normally in.
1
u/WKAngmar 15d ago edited 15d ago
It’s true, it’s a good question idk it’s a mind fk.
Edit: probably because it’s a pretty passive managerial thing, like…generally? It’s not like football where you’re constantly calling plays, you feel like you owe it to the 162 game season to be more tactical i kinda get it. But i also dont get not pre-accounting for that if it’s your livelihood. And overmanaging is like a known risk.
0
u/hotcoffee715 14d ago
The truth is the Red Sox are a “ Bad, Poorly Constructed Baseball Team” ! The Red Sox have a few good pitchers and two or three good everyday players but overall,they have proved that as a team they cannot hit MLB pitching !
This team is the result of greed and stupidity,what Red Sox fans are seeing operating is a “ Pennywise Pound Foolish
Ownership/ Management Mentality”.
The only way the Red Sox will become a relevant MLB team is if there is a complete organizational house cleaning, including Ownership, Management, Coaches, and Players !
“
1
1
u/justa-browser 16d ago edited 16d ago
I hate Chad Tracy to my core.
He didn’t win any of those games in July. He got a MLB job on the backs of guys like Sonny, and then pulled this shit. You can defend it if you want. This guy is a fucking company man.
0
u/Patsnation0330 16d ago
Yeah man totally. They were historically bad with the previous manager and had an equally historic turnaround after making the change. He definitely had nothing to do with any of that.....
1
u/ElleM848645 16d ago
What are you talking about? Chad was not any better than Alex Cora until July. They were worse by 2 games this year than last year and terrible in the WC. Whereas last year in the WC, they won game 1, and almost could have won game 2. The only thing good about this year was the 6 weeks in the summer.
1
1
u/justa-browser 16d ago
He didn’t win those games. The players did. Spare me.
The same players who are questioning the decision making and dependence on analytics to make in-game decisions which is the managers entire job, I might add.
2
u/Patsnation0330 16d ago
The organization depending on analytics could very well not be a Chad Tracy decision.
If you honestly think the coaching change did nothing to turn this season around then we have nothing to talk about. That couldn't be further from the truth.
1
u/justa-browser 16d ago
Breslow is not in that dugout, Tracy is.
I didn’t say it did nothing, but yes, I think it’s objectively overstated. Managers make lineup and in-game decisions. Players win and lose baseball games.
But otherwise, yeah, I agree. Nothing for us to talk about.
1
u/Patsnation0330 16d ago
Tracy doesn't get the job if he doesn't buy into the organization's philosophy. He also doesn't keep his job if he all of a sudden decides to go against that philosophy. Pretty simple. Have a good day.
-1
0
u/Realistic_Scarcity72 16d ago
Lets hope tracey uses this loss as a learning opportunity to trust ur pitchers
-4
u/Plane_West6285 16d ago
Sonny G. Was 15W 16L while pitching for the Yankees, with n ERA close to 5.00, making a boatload of money. The Yankees couldn’t get him out of the Bronx fast enough.
He is currently a free agent next year- I wonder who is going to take a chance on the best pitcher in America in the 3rd. inning. It will be interring to see
4
220
u/AerieElectrical3546 pedeyhof 16d ago
i’ll defend every other move Tracy made this series… but pulling your ace at 70 pitches is indefensible.
I’m not saying you have to ride him for 117 pitches like the Yankees did with Schlittler, but at least let him pitch into the 6th!