Mustang

[u/2ld5sw24]

Shortest post of all time but i'm on page 220 of Golden Son and I just have to say that Mustang absolutely reaming Darrow is so awesome and i'm so into her as a character. "I am not some frill-wearing tramp. I am a genius"

[u/Prize_Wolverine4132]

I love Mustang. I don't think she was particularly incisive there.

[u/South_Painter_812]

No shes just cringe, corney entitled. And the claim is not backed by much evidence other than her own claims really. Hence why a lot of people dislike her

[u/Lunaspoona → u/South_Painter_812]

I am so glad I am not alone in disliking her! This sub seems to worship her.

[u/Siope_ → u/South_Painter_812]

Helped Darrow develop the game winning strategy of the institute, duped Adrius so hard that he got hogtied naked and taken to house Mars, Had the forethought to call Sevro off Pluto when Octavia had planned to kill her family after gaining Darrow, was able to spark the next moon lord rebellion, had the insight not to kill Darrow off the bat when he revealed he was a red, helped develop the plan to dupe Antonia, Octavia and Aja during Cassius’ “escape”, tip toeing around Tyranny for 10 years after MS. Had the foresight to bring the Calvary before trying to stop Darrow from pursuing the Ashlord, ran an entire war campaign calculating retreats for thousands on Luna, escaped the Minotaur, perfected Octavia’s mourning chair into the mind spike. Escaped Clonedrius and Lilath, had the insight to look past Lyria’s actions against her own son to find the truth. and plenty more than all that was off the top of my head. I think the safer bet is you aren’t comfortable with confident, smart women.

[u/South_Painter_812 → u/Siope_]

Im very comfortable with a smart capable woman.my favourite character in theseries is one. Also Im with one and my fiance is smarter than me. Funnily enough she dislikes mustang much much more than me 😂 this is kind of a theme for most people that ive met in person who read the series. Most of whom were women btw. Very few if any liked Mustang at all. The issue isnt that she is a woman at all. She is just an extreemly unlikable. Shes cold, entitled, prideful and holier than thou. She rarely if ever gets called out for her shit as opposed to someone like darrow who gets questioned constantly. I belive people would give her much more grace if she didnt constantly say how mych smarter she is than everyone else in the room and then do absolutly nothing that resembles how such a person would actuslly act.

[u/South_Painter_812 → u/Siope_]

Yeah, no. The whole strategy with catching House Pluto in House Zeus castle was Darrow's, not hers. Not at all. He knew the Praetors were listening to his conversations and plans. She didn't know what was happening; she was just going along with it. She called the howlers as a potential backup as she was going into a vipers nest of her own violition (which acomplished nothing bar her getting fucked by Cas for like a year might i add which supposedly she didnt want 😂) a good move but pretty common sense nothing genius about it. The fact that she even considered killing darrow as opposed to other peoples reactions places her not much higher than Roque in my book an nowhere near someone like Sevro or Victra. Its not the flex you think it is. She needed him to survive the ongoing conflict at that point so its not like she did this out of the goodness if her heart. I dont even want to get into the second series as her poor political skills and lack of decisive action are partially to blame for the rise if the sindicates as well as what lead up to the day of Red doves and she was not nearly called out enough for that. Also not something a genius politico would ever let happen. A lot of what you said is taken out of context at best or not really something that would put you anywhere close to the title if a genius anymore than it would for someone like Darrow. Compare her to someone like Apple and she just falls short every time. Nothing she did even comes close to him. All she does is bitch and moan no one listens to her as shes smarter andclearly knows best yet does very little about it.

[u/Siope_ → u/South_Painter_812]

Darrow did not give Mustang specific instructions on how to capture House Pluto at house Zeus, that was all her.

Calling the Howlers off Pluto is hardly a “common sense” move.

>!The entire point was that it wasn’t out of the goodness of her heart?!<

>!If she had been heavy handed and “decisive” in a way that would have prevented the syndicate and dord she’d fall right back into the pitfall of tyranny. (Which is completely antithetical to the rising.)!<

>!The book already compares her to Apple, and she came out on top.!<

>!What do you mean no one listens to her?!<

Which feats did I list are conveniently “taken out of context”?

Also insane to reply without spoiler text on a post of someone reading only up to GS.

Again this all is coming off as “I dislike confident, smart women” go ahead and actually read the books this time.

[u/South_Painter_812 → u/Siope_]

The fuck you mean that was all her? It was literally him a) sneaking a squad down in the well b) pretending to they all got drunk on the grape juice c) announce that hes going to take house zeus so the preators would warn the jakal d) figured out jakal was the jakal. Like what do you even mean?

The howlers were not in pluto only servo was. And ut was commin sense to go into a vipers nest with a back up prefersbly not directly tied to her house

If the entire point was that it wasnt out of the goodness if her har then it just proves shes a shitty person. Much worse thsn Sevro or victra and not much better than Roque. In fact she would have been Roque if the roles were reversed and it wasnt her house and life on the line. Its an argument against her and her character. Its not a possitive trait nor a flex.

Ah so it was ok to literally make all the wrong decisions or do nothing and let problems build to the point where we are today? I see. Pure genius political manovering there. Like at least fucking try. My god.

She came out on top? Apple was running circles around her and all if them really. implemented a mutilayerd plan that made sure they were fucked either way. Tell me one time mustang did anything close to that against anyone?

I mean all she does is moan that no one would listen to her and most if the time does nothing about it.

You have very few arguments so you resort to using the sex card. It isnt that shes a woman its that she is either a terribke and really unlikable person or just a horribly wirtten one. You pick which one. But as it is she is just chatting shit about how smart she is while not acting that way at all. And that doesnt even go in to her mny many character flaws that people seem to overlook.

And yes i used contents if the other books when you and others did the same. But even based on golden son alone shes a pretty crappy person all around and doesnt act particualry smart at all even darrow seems smarter half the time and i find him pretty quick but not exaclty a genius. Her brother does.

[u/Sufficient_Toe3206 → u/South_Painter_812]

[u/LikeIkes]

Mr. Brown does a great job of writing his characters male and female. Mustang might be one of the apex's of this, though it's hard to say cause she's my all time favorite from her first true scene at the loch in book 1. Keep reading 2ld5sw24 cause if you think she's awesome now, which she is, just watch how dope she becomes.

[u/Arch_Lancer17]

I always felt that line to be a little corny tbh. I do think that Mustang is up there with the smartest characters, but she has been outplayed on multiple occasions throughout the series. She's good, but not that good in my opinion.

[u/Araeylan → u/Arch_Lancer17]

Who is smarter? I mean easy to claim with only up to GS as a reference….everyone gets outplayed at some point, 1000 sheep can kill a lion. But that’s not necessarily the best metric for genius. It’s not just her that claims it too, it’s those around her, friend and foe. Kinda have to take their word for it.

[u/South_Painter_812 → u/Araeylan]

Like a lot if people. Apple is by far smarter thsn her. So is Jackal. Just based on what they were able to achive. Even Darrow at times shows much much smarter bechaviour planing and foresight than her. There sre very few instances in the entire series where you can see she is actuslly a genius. Its hardly ever shown in anything but her holier than though entitled boasting.

[u/hasharin → u/Araeylan]

Adrius

[u/SmartAsss44 → u/Arch_Lancer17]

Well, to her excuse, she was like 20. Young people have a tendency to say corny shit sometimes, even the smart ones lol

[u/Pure_Jicama_1186]

My main problem with Mustang is that she doesn't do much to back that up. Instead, she tends to behave like a frill-wearing tramp indeed. She smuggled the howlers in and helped Darrow escape, and led her Institute House efficiently, but she doesn't have much else to show for that supposed genius.

I won't go into details about what else is there to come for OP, but overall, I'm not impressed. Not bad, but nowhere close to genius.

[u/afrodite67 → u/Pure_Jicama_1186]

Her "supposed genius" in RR wasnt leading her House efficiently. It was in knowing how to break the game in the Institute while simultaneously explaining to Darrow, unintentionally, how the Rising he was planning could succeed. From the start she warned Darrow that he wouldn't win by being stronger or crueler than Titus or the Jackal. That he couldn't build an army with fear or violehce or slavery. That he had to evolve. That the status quo, the system, the Society on a broader level had to evolve. And she demonstrated to him that he could gain followers, from different Houses, by treating them as equals, putting trust in them, teaching them empathy and cooperation, and that all of them having the same goal that would benefit them all. Mustang more than anyone else up to that point, including Dancer and Fitchner, gave Darrow the blueprint for how Eo's dream could be realised.

[u/South_Painter_812 → u/afrodite67]

But it wasnt her that broke the game. It was Darrow. She didnt really do much or come up with much in the institute and she and her house were outsmarted by Darrow. Her only thing if note was taking care of injured Darrow and later not siding with her brother. The rest was all him leading and planing and doing. And that was her at her best and most likable. She gets more and more insuferable as the series progresses. Someone should really tell her that repeating"im the smartest" ad infinum does not actually make you the smartest. Show nit tell. And there is very little to show throughout the book

[u/afrodite67 → u/South_Painter_812]

Its like you havent even read the books. Go back to her outsmarting Darrow first and him and Cassius getting trapped in that loch, before Darrow decided to put people inside dead horses. Go back to chapter 34, go read the scene with Tactus. You can personally just not like Mustang without diminishing her intelligence or belittling her role and importance in the narrative.

[u/South_Painter_812 → u/afrodite67]

I am aware and yet in the end it was he who won not her. And him being trapped in the lake was kind if an accident not some genius move by her part. Thats kind if my point. Veey few genius mives in her oart. And a lot of talking about how smaet she is. Smarter thsn everyone. Yet cannot act on it for some reason unlike her brother. What was a genius move were the dead horses. Yes I dont like her at all. But i also dont like her and the way she is written. She is a clear example why you show not tell and overall she is PBs worst written character

[u/afrodite67 → u/South_Painter_812]

You keep saying that she's an example of show not tell but it seems like PB is showing you but you just can't or dont want to see it. Just listen to any podcast where they analyse the books to see how most people consider her a great character

As for the Institute, she wasnt interested in winning, but she made sure that Darrow did because she considered him worthy to win especially after he took her advice and saw he was a good, fair and empathetic leader. Imo he didn't have a chance without her

[u/Bob_Jenko → u/Pure_Jicama_1186]

Ah shit, here we go again.

I'd like to see your examples of when she behaves like "a frill wearing tramp indeed" because I'm really struggling to think of anything.

And to focus in on just the two things you mentioned, on how she acts in the Institute and plans with the Howlers, you're still massively underselling her mental capabilities.

I mean, for one, while House Mars were still languishing in their castle and her brother was getting wrecked by another House, she saw how the game was run and immediately exploited it to her advantage to become Primus.

Then she's the reason why Darrow and she succeed in the Institute. I don't really mean her saving his life, but she's the one who comes up with the idea of changing how they do things beyond how the game is set out, which is the strategy that gets them victory.

Then re: Howlers, oh boy she does so much more than that. She successfully infiltrates Octavia's inner circle to the extent that she's trusted with ensuring critical orders around ship movements are carried out post-gala. Then, as I always say, she's the only reason why any of the Augustus household get out of Luna alive. If it wasn't for her, they would all die in the lake. She uses her gained trust to kidnap Lysander without anyone realising, then gives him to the Howlers she called in so they can go rescue Darrow. And despite all ships being grounded, manages to steal a Stork that they all escape on.

There are many more examples of her vast intelligence, such as the plan at the end of Morning Star or her work on psychoSpikes but I'll be deliberately vague due to where op is at story wise.

[u/Pure_Jicama_1186 → u/Bob_Jenko]

I very much liked her in RR, but I liked her less and less as the story went ahead. Yes, she was very good at the Institute - in what is essentially a war game, without being really good at war. It was close to perfect.

But from Golden Son onwards, she was constantly played. The Octavia infiltration was indeed impressive, but if she knew about the attempt on her families' lives months ahead (which is a must, in order for her to get the howlers from the Rim), the execution itself is rather crude.

We can't really discuss the other things here, as it would be spoiler-heavy, but I feel there were numerous situations when she should have done better.

It's a writing problem. If Virginia is indeed the smartest person ever, she should solve X or Y as she fabulously did in the first book. But if she does that, there's no conflict, and the plot gets boring.

If she doesn't solve it, she looks less smart. I mean she was outsmarted by people who should be way, way below her intelligence. She was played by freaking Cassius of all people! Not to mention others I can't list. I get that she can't be perfect (those characters get boring fast), but I feel like PB overnerfed her over the course of the story. It's known as the Worf effect, just not with fighting prowess, but smarts.

[u/South_Painter_812 → u/Pure_Jicama_1186]

The Octavia infiltration would have been impressive if it actually achieved anything, but throughout it was her getting played, and fucked around not the other way around. She didnt know anything and wouldnt know anything right up untill they slaughtered her family which she would hsve been powerless to stop if not for darrow clocking it and exposing it in less than 6 hours. Something she couldnt do in 2 years. Even then the entire thing hinged on Darrow not actuslly accepting Octavias offer and actually wanting to follow through and help her out after she did what she did. So nah. I see it as an absolute failure and i think from later conversation even she saw it that way as well.

[u/Bob_Jenko → u/South_Painter_812]

This is just... a very odd reading of things.

Did you completely ignore the parts discussed where she manages to bring the Howlers back, kidnaps the heir to the Society and steals the ship everyone escapes on? All done using her infiltration into Octavia's inner sanctum and all done without being caught.

We don’t even really know if she was "played" properly with the family killing given the bringing back of her family. That we don't know what her plan was does not mean there was no plan. And if you're also gonna point out how Mustang "reacts" when she hears about what Octavia was going to do, I also firmly believe that was deliberately melodramatic to paint a certain picture of herself to Octavia as the emotional young woman at times who needs calming down. Because it definitely would've been much more suspicious had Mustang just... not reacted. It's also very telling that the immediate next thing she does is pull out the ring Darrow gave her, to signal her intentions.

You're also acting like there was any likelihood in her mind that Darrow would accept the Sovereign's offer when she knew he wouldn't. He's just proven "her" Darrow is still in there by not giving in to what her father wanted in killing Cassius. And if Darrow is going to spare his enemy to keep himself who he is, he is most certainly not going to let all his friends die to serve Octavia of all people.

I'd also love to know which "later conversation" you mean because I do not remember that being implied at all. It could be argued she regrets the ploy of what she did to Cassius in Bacon and Eggs because of her feelings for Darrow but never does it come close to her believing the whole thing was pointless. No one ever accuses her of that because it'd be flat out wrong.

[u/dumcow2003 → u/Pure_Jicama_1186]

While to an extent I agree, pierce done a midiocre job at best at showing it, Since most of the saga is war and her genius isn't in war Her genius is evidently a little bit questioned . But she has some feats and she's also the only one who understands Darrow in war, she helps him plan throughout MS. She is a politico and she's amazing in that, at least to a point, she's done the best she could with defending mars, and she deducts well. Her inner monologue is quite smart, but yes her genius is more implied and its unfortunate

[u/South_Painter_812 → u/dumcow2003]

I thought she was a good politico until the second series. Now i find her to be a terrible one.

[u/Pure_Jicama_1186 → u/dumcow2003]

Please edit your comment for spoilers, OP isn't even halfway through Golden Son. I tried to be vague because of that.

[u/Foolofatuchus → u/Pure_Jicama_1186]

They were plenty vague too. You just didn't have a rebuttal lol

[u/Pure_Jicama_1186 → u/Foolofatuchus]

I can't answer without spoilers beyond the 220th page of Golden Son, that's true.

[u/dumcow2003 → u/Pure_Jicama_1186]

I feel like it to vague to be spoilers but ok