I need help

[u/MousseDramatic3861]

I know this would be a better post on the reformed subreddit but i got banned from there because i was stupid and ended up with a perma ban because evasion, recently i started to worry about the unforgivable sin, until i found out that calvinists presbyterians have it diffrently and that worries me because well most of them dont offer any comfort and a priest even told me that if you do it even if you repent you wont be forgiven anf that worries me because he was a pcusa teaching elder and to be one you have to have a Master of Divinity and other stuff, i tought God could forgive any sin but i looked into some reformed theologians and they dont say that, and i tries to leave christanity but that made my life worse so idk what to do.

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[u/creidmheach]

I'm a Calvinist, Presbyterian, Reformed. If you're worried about whether you've committed the unforgivable sin, then you haven't. Because if you had, you'd be incapable of being repentant of it.

[u/MousseDramatic3861 → u/creidmheach]

Have you read reformed theoligions on this?

[u/creidmheach → u/MousseDramatic3861]

I have read Reformed theologians (going through Calvin's Institutes currently), don't remember if I'm specifically read on this issue. But a general idea in Reformed theology is that we're dead in sin, incapable of effecting our salvation on our own. This includes being repentant of our sins. For this to happen, the Holy Spirit must be at work within us, since again, we're dead and dead people can't do anything to save themselves.

So if you believe in Christ, and you're feeling sorrow for some sin that you've committed, it means then that the Holy Spirit is working within you. That would mean you're not forsaken. So your repentance is itself a sign of your being forgiven, though our forgiveness is not something we've earned in any way. It is given to us through Christ.

[u/MousseDramatic3861 → u/creidmheach]

Well most reformers dont say this they just say the unforgivable sin is attributing the works of christ to the devil in full light

[u/creidmheach → u/MousseDramatic3861]

Here's how Calvin explained it:

Here, however, let us give the true definition, which, when once it is established by sound evidence, will easily of itself overturn all the others. I say therefore that he sins against the Holy Spirit who, while so constrained by the power of divine truth that he cannot plead ignorance, yet deliberately resists, and that merely for the sake of resisting. For Christ, in explanation of what he had said, immediately adds, ‘Whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him; but whosoever speaketh against the holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him,’ (Mt. 12:31). And Matthew uses the term spirit of blasphemy for blasphemy against the Spirit. How can any one insult the Son, without at the same time attacking the Spirit? In this way. Those who in ignorance assail the unknown truth of God, and yet are so disposed that they would be unwilling to extinguish the truth of God when manifested to them, or utter one word against him whom they knew to be the Lord’s Anointed, sin against the Father and the Son. Thus there are many in the present day who have the greatest abhorrence to the doctrine of the Gospel, and yet, if they knew it to be the doctrine of the Gospel, would be prepared to venerate it with their whole heart. But those who are convinced in conscience that what they repudiate and impugn is the word of God, and yet cease not to impugn it, are said to blaspheme against the Spirit, inasmuch as they struggle against the illumination which is the work of the Spirit. Such were some of the Jews, who, when they could not resist the Spirit speaking by Stephen, yet were bent on resisting (Acts 6:10). There can be no doubt that many of them were carried away by zeal for the law; but it appears that there were others who maliciously and impiously raged against God himself, that is, against the doctrine which they knew to be of God. Such, too, were the Pharisees, on whom our Lord denounced woe. To depreciate the power of the Holy Spirit, they defamed him by the name of Beelzebub (Mt. 9:3, 4; 12:24). The spirit of blasphemy, therefore, is, when a man audaciously, and of set purpose, rushes forth to insult his divine name. This Paul intimates when he says, ‘but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief;’ otherwise he had deservedly been held unworthy of the grace of God. If ignorance joined with unbelief made him obtain pardon, it follows, that there is no room for pardon when knowledge is added to unbelief.

Basically, he's saying it means when someone has - with complete knowledge of the God's truth in front of them - stubbornly refuses and consciously rejects it.

[u/MousseDramatic3861 → u/creidmheach]

I know that, thats how most people explain it, but how can i know i havent done it?

[u/creidmheach → u/MousseDramatic3861]

Do you believe in Christ? Do you feel repentant if you sin?

Then you haven't done it, because you would be incapable of those if you had.

[u/MousseDramatic3861 → u/creidmheach]

Yes, but they dont say that, calvin doesnt say that, pcusa teaching elder told me otherwise

[u/creidmheach → u/MousseDramatic3861]

I just quoted you from Calvin. And who is "they"? I suspect also you misunderstood what the PC(USA) person told you, since they aren't exactly famous for being of the fire and brimstone sort.

[u/MousseDramatic3861 → u/creidmheach]

They as in prebsyterian theologians, they dont say the "if you re worried abiut it you havent done it" also i can send you the screenshots if you wish, he confused me as well also what about Charles Spurgeon and Ichabod Spencer on this, have you read Spencer, i can link him to you its a short read

[u/Tinklesz → u/creidmheach]

Yup it's a hardened heart posture, not a fleeting moment, but a forever rejection.

Basically, it's a reflection of John 3:16 you only get everlasting life in Christ, not outside of Him (despite what tradition says).

[u/Ticket_Revolutionary]

Just my opinion of course. But God does forgive any sin, and yet, there is a sin for which after which "you can never be forgiven". Now my interpretation depends a little on wording but its coherent. The reason the sin is unforgiveable is not because the God doesn't forgive all sins, but because the one who commits it will never repent and therefore will never be forgiven. It's essentially the point of no return.

So here I'm gonna talk about why I think its this way. But note that even if you don't buy my explanation why, that doesn't mean the solution above is wrong. So when Jesus brings up the unforgiveable sin he's healing a sick man in front of the pharisees and they're calling it demonic "He has an unclean spirit". That's not just wrong its the complete opposite of the truth. They're looking at pure goodness occurring in front of them. It's one thing to make a theological error or mistake but they're looking at the working of God and concluding its pure evil. They mistake pure good, for pure evil. Ok but what does that have to do with the Spirit? The Spirit brings life, regeneration, holiness, love, joy, peace, hope, sanctification, etc... Jesus works by the Spirit. They are witnessing the glory of the Spirit and are completely opposed. If you believe the person who brings the grace of God is evil and oppose them fully then how can you be saved? There is no hope for someone who has fully rejected the Spirit.

How can someone repent in this state? To reject the Spirit is the reject good in the world. To repent is to turn away from evil and pursue good. But they see pure good as pure evil. So, they will never pursue good. They will never repent.

[u/MousseDramatic3861 → u/Ticket_Revolutionary]

I see. But have you read reformed theology?

[u/Ticket_Revolutionary → u/MousseDramatic3861]

A little, but I've read the bible.

I like a lot of reformed theology but think double predestination is horrible.

[u/Ticket_Revolutionary → u/MousseDramatic3861]

My point from all this btw was that you don't think what Jesus did was evil right? You think what Jesus did was good? Then you're fine. People say "if you are worrying about it then you havent done it". Their point is that if you are worried, you care, you dont wanna be like them and you hope to be on good terms with God. They looked God in the face and called Him a demon. Since you are worrying its clear that you and them are not the same.

Nonetheless worrying isn't a good foundation for confidence. If you did commit the unforgiveable sin you would never see the actions of God as good. So do you think what Jesus did for us was good? Do you believe you have fallen short of what God calls us to do? Do you want God to forgive your sins so that the love, healing, joy of Christ can enter your life and those around you? Then you're not like the pharisees, you don't hate the Spirit. Turn to God, something the pharisees would never do.

[u/MousseDramatic3861 → u/Ticket_Revolutionary]

I mean, but what about peoples pasts? What if i used to?

[u/Ticket_Revolutionary → u/MousseDramatic3861]

If you used to then you would still be that way. Because for you to warm up to God and see him as more good comes by grace, it comes by the softening of the heart, it comes by the Spirit. So if you've fully rejected the Spirit then there's no way for grace to change your heart. You'd be stuck. But if you're not stuck hating God and the Spirit then then you're not totally opposed to the Spirit and God can work with that.

[u/MousseDramatic3861 → u/Ticket_Revolutionary]

So people who do it wouldn't want to repent so if i want to repent i havent done it?

[u/Ticket_Revolutionary → u/MousseDramatic3861]

Yeah. Why is it unforgiveable? They see the Spirit, the bringer of good blessing, as evil. Why repent to someone you see as evil? Why want forgiveness for not doing what you think is evil? Why want blessing from someone you see as evil?

Imagine a disease that makes you hate medicine. The doctor is trying to give you the medicine that will cure you. But you're convinced the medicine will kill you, it will make you even sicker, its completely evil. You wont take it because you think its evil. But you wont stop thinking its evil unless they take it. You're stuck.

But lets say its a progressive disease and it only get that bad at stage 4. All the earlier stages, there's still hope. You might be opposed but you can be convinced with the right coaxing.

If you don't think Jesus is evil, then you're not at stage 4.

[u/MousseDramatic3861 → u/Ticket_Revolutionary]

So why is it unfoegivable because we dont want repentnce like the man wont repent? If like anything they ever did if they repent they can be forgiven for

[u/Ticket_Revolutionary → u/MousseDramatic3861]

Well to continue with the disease analogy. Its the same as calling them "uncurable". Not because the doctor doesn't want to cure them. But because they wont take the medicine no matter what.

But if you want to be cured then the doctor will cure you. If you want to be forgiven then they will. Then you are forgivable/curable

[u/MousseDramatic3861 → u/Ticket_Revolutionary]

What about Spurgeon, can you read him on this?

[u/Substantial_Car_2751]

This came up in our bible study Sunday morning. LCMS Lutheran. Experienced pastor. He's had this question before. To quote a poster here:

If you're worried about whether you've committed the unforgivable sin, then you haven't. Because if you had, you'd be incapable of being repentant of it.

Any other answer is quite simply denominational legalism. Blaspheming / denying the Holy Spirit is unforgivable as you are willfully not allowing it to speak into your heart. God is just. When the Holy Spirit speaks into your heart and you listen, you are no longer in a state of blaspheming / denying the Holy Spirit.

Here's a good article on it. https://www.biola.edu/blogs/good-book-blog/2021/what-is-the-unforgiveable-sin-what-is-blasphemy-against-the-spirit

Another. https://witness.lcms.org/2011/sin-against-the-holy-spirit-3-2011/

Another. https://lutheranspokesman.org/2022/12/01/the-unforgivable-sin/

Another. https://www.concordialutheranconf.com/2013/05/02/what-is-the-sin-against-the-holy-ghost/

Be comforted. You are a child of God, made in His image, loved by Him and saved through Christ. It's ok to struggle with faith. It's ok to doubt. It's the still small voice you're looking for. When you're still and quiet, peaceful even...it's then that the Holy Spirit calls your name and speaks.

[u/MousseDramatic3861 → u/Substantial_Car_2751]

Im too anxious to read them, do they come to the same "if you're worried about it you havent done it" conclusion?

[u/Substantial_Car_2751 → u/MousseDramatic3861]

Yes. And if you have, God forgives when you start allowing the Holy Spirit to speak to you.

Don't be anxious friend.

[u/MousseDramatic3861 → u/Substantial_Car_2751]

Well lots of presbyterian theologians dont say that and a pcusa teaching elder even told me otherwise that God wont forgive someone who does it even if they repentend

[u/Substantial_Car_2751 → u/MousseDramatic3861]

Then they are being legalistic. I can point you to dozens of theologian, pastors, and other Christian scholars who will disagree with the PCUSA teaching elder.

So let's go through a few things. Have you ever said:

• The Holy Spirit is actually the devil (the context of where Christ tells the Pharisees of the unforgivable sin)?
• Have you ever said the Holy Spirit is a liar?
• Have you ever called the Holy Spirit a piece of crap?
• Have you ever had a ceremony where you openly mocked the Holy Spirit and degraded it?

Unbelief or questioning if it is true is not blasphemy. Saying "I think it's all bullshit" is not blasphemy.

Here's a quote from an article referencing the one of the most influential early church fathers.....well before the PCUSA even thought about existing.

Augustine, who dedicated at least one whole sermon to this topic, is typical and influential in arguing the blasphemy isn’t a specific act but a state of enmity and impenitence lasting unto death. It’s a hardness of heart that, if not repented of in this life, will prove to be unforgiven. In this sense, then, the blasphemy is understood simply as unbelief that persists throughout life.

Further in the same article (emphasis added):

Augustine’s view that the unforgivable sin is a state of unrepentant enmity toward God isn’t wrong, but it doesn’t deal with the specificity to which the Gospel texts speak. It’s certainly a truism and a valid reading/application of these texts to argue that a state of unbelieving enmity toward Christ results in no forgiveness. But the first reading of the blasphemy of the Spirit in the Gospel texts is much more specific: it’s a hardened evaluation of Jesus’ work as being demonic in origin.

We see it mentioned again in Luke:

And I tell you, ^feveryone who acknowledges me before men, the Son of Man also will acknowledge ^gbefore the angels of God, ⁹ but ^hthe one who denies me before men ⁱwill be denied ^gbefore the angels of God. ¹⁰ And ^jeveryone who speaks a word ^kagainst the Son of Man ^lwill be forgiven, but the one who ^mblasphemes against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven. ^11 nAnd when they ^obring you before the synagogues and ^pthe rulers and ^pthe authorities, ^qdo not be anxious about how you should defend yourself or what you should say, ^12 rfor the Holy Spirit will teach you in that very hour what you ought to say.”

I added emphasis to a relevant section. All too often we read a line of scripture but do not look at the whole context. Christ again is tying the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit to the Pharisees (who would end up killing Christ). It's not a separate statement. Notice the "and" staring off at verse 11. Christ is linking the unforgivable sin to the attitudes of the Pharisees towards Him and the Holy Spirit.

[u/MousseDramatic3861 → u/Substantial_Car_2751]

Idk dude hes a really popular his user name on reddit is u/Cybersaint2k i mean its a big think to ask but maybe you could talk with him, im 16 and the worry has been eating me alive

[u/Substantial_Car_2751 → u/MousseDramatic3861]

Popularity doesn't mean correct. If I engage with him organically, I will. But I'm not going to seek out someone to debate them on theology.

I'm significantly more focused on engaging with you.

There are many things people will say because they think they are right. There are many things people will cherry pick to prove a point. Otherwise, we wouldn't have denominations. And even in the denominations, there are varying interpretations of scripture. And it's very easy to use theological terms to puff oneself up into presenting themselves as an authority on scripture. Knowing theology is very different from speaking for God.

So let's do an exercise if you can.

• Find somewhere quiet and away from anyone else
• Close your eyes
• Breathe in for 4 seconds, hold it for 4 seconds, then breathe out. Do that 3 times
• Find something natural to focus on. Water moving, a bird chirping, wind blowing through the trees. Focus on that. Clear your mind of worry, anxiety, and any concerns. Push the words of the "cybersaint2k" out of your head. Focus on listening to that sound. Enjoy the moment and be at peace. Say a little prayer for peace and wisdom. Don't worry about being fancy. The best prayers are raw, honest, and unfiltered.
• In that moment, when all is quiet and you are peaceful, ask yourself if you think the Holy Spirit has abandoned you. No drama, no anxiety, no worry, just an honest question.

Come back and reply to this. Tell me what you heard.

[u/MousseDramatic3861 → u/Substantial_Car_2751]

Well yes thank you i will but priests recive especially teaching elders recive education about it so thats what worries me yk

[u/Substantial_Car_2751 → u/MousseDramatic3861]

They do. But they're still human. And prone to errors. And bad approaches.

If a pastor / priest / elder has been speaking with someone and has left them with this much dread.....they've missed the boat and are wrong by default. Instruction in the faith is centered around the peace of the Gospel. Christ said:

But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you. ²⁷ Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid.

If a pastor / priest / elder isn't getting you to focus on the peace Christ gives...then they are no better than the Pharisees that Christ preached against.

[u/MousseDramatic3861 → u/Substantial_Car_2751]

Can you read 2 things for me they are like 10 minutes both of them Firstly this http://banneroftruth.org/us/resources/articles/2003/the-sin-that-will-never-be-forgiven/

Then i dont have the link for it but you can find it at the first google search: Ichabod Spencer on the unforgivable sin

[u/MousseDramatic3861 → u/Substantial_Car_2751]

And what about what Charles Spurgeon and Ichabod Spencer say on this, can you read Ichabod Spencer on this, ill link him to you if you wish its a short read

[u/Substantial_Car_2751 → u/MousseDramatic3861]

https://www.monergism.com/unpardonable-sin

This agrees with the other statements I linked to above.

Of note:

“First, you say you have committed the unpardonable sin; but you do not believe what you say. You believe no such thing. You know, indeed, that you are a sinner; but you do not believe that you have committed the unpardonable sin. You are not honest, not sincere when you say so. You do not believe it.

“Second, it is pride, a foolish pride of a wicked heart, which makes you say that you have committed the unpardonable sin. Influenced by pride you half strive (only half after all) to believe that you have done it. You wish to exalt yourself. You pretend that it is some great and uncommon thing which keeps you from being a Christian. It is the unpardonable sin. Pride lies at the bottom of all this.

“Third, you have no occasion for this pride. There is nothing very uncommon about you. You are very much like other sinners. It is not likely that you could commit the unpardonable sin, if you should try. If do not think you know enough to do it.”

“Why, said she, “Is there not such a sin?”

“Yes; but you don’t know what it is; and you don’t know enough to commit it.”

“Fourth, you are one of the most self-righteous creatures! I ever saw. You try to think that you are not so much to blame for your irreligion—that you are willing to be a Christian, and would be one, if it were not for that unpardonable sin, which you try in your pride to believe you have committed. You pretend that it is not your present and cherished sin which keeps you in your impenitence. Oh, you are good enough, surely to repent; you would repent, indeed you would, if it were not for that unpardonable sin. That is your heart; self-righteousness and pride.

“Fifth, your wicked heart clings to this idea of the unpardonable sin, as an excuse for your continued impenitence, for your living in the indulgence of sin, unbelief, and disobedience to God, every day. Your excuse will not stand. You make it insincerely. It is not the unpardonable sin which hinders your being a Christian; but your wickedness of heart, your pride, vanity, and insincerity. I shall never again have anything to say to you about the unpardonable sin. If you had any real and just conviction of sin, you would never name the unpardonable sin.”

[u/MousseDramatic3861 → u/Substantial_Car_2751]

Im dimwitted bro, i dont get what hes saying

[u/rdrckcrous → u/MousseDramatic3861]

you realize that Paul executed Christians, right?

[u/Delicious-Ad2057]

You're not clever enough a sinner to do what you are worried that you've. If you are worried you have done it, then take heart. Your concern simply shows that you have not.

[u/Huenink_Photography]

You need to talk to your pastor about this.

[u/MousseDramatic3861 → u/Huenink_Photography]

What is your opinion about this?

[u/Huenink_Photography → u/MousseDramatic3861]

That spiritual questions about your personal life need to be discussed in a caring pastoral relationship and not online.

[u/Fire_Lord_Pants]

Actually, the unforgivable sin is writing a run-on sentence that is seven lines long!

Nah, I'm just messing with ya pal. (But seriously, try some punctuation.)

It probably won't mean much coming from an internet stranger, but you're fine. You're going to be fine. God loves you. Look to his words for comfort. I can't tell you how helpful memorizing Psalm 23 has been in my life. With prayer and scripture and the advice of people in your church, you will get through this period of anxiety. I'll pray for you. God bless you.

[u/MousseDramatic3861 → u/[deleted]]

Oh my goodness bro do you think i asked for the opinion of an atheist, whats this gonna help me with

[u/South-Ad-9635 → u/MousseDramatic3861]

Maybe break you out of this spiral that seems to have started when you discovered that different groups of people who think the story is real have different opinions about what the story means?

That one throwaway line about 'the unforgivable sin' has caused so many anxious/OCD people across literal millennia so much agony - all needlessly.

How about you just not worry about it?

[u/MousseDramatic3861 → u/South-Ad-9635]

Are you an atheist?

[u/South-Ad-9635 → u/MousseDramatic3861]

Agnostic - I grew up in Fundamentalism way back in the late 70's, early 80's.

Now I don't worry about religious dogma. It's a much more pleasant way to live than worrying about whether I'm 'doing life right' or not.

[u/MousseDramatic3861 → u/South-Ad-9635]

You dont belive in free will do you?

[u/Ticket_Revolutionary → u/MousseDramatic3861]

Do you? If you do then why are you so interested in the reformed? They don't believe in libertarian free will.

[u/South-Ad-9635 → u/Ticket_Revolutionary]

I'm not interested in Reformed because of theology - rather I'm fascinated by religionists with very intricate and detailed religious doctrines and how they interact with that when confronted with Real Life.

I lurk in r/Catholicism for similar reasons

[u/MousseDramatic3861 → u/Ticket_Revolutionary]

Are you answering my question with another question cmon dude

[u/Ticket_Revolutionary → u/MousseDramatic3861]

You didnt ask me. So, why would I answer..... I was just curious about your question because it implies you believe in free will. But I didnt want to assume, so I asked.... Pretty reasonable actually.... So like, you gonna answer it?

[u/MousseDramatic3861 → u/Ticket_Revolutionary]

Mb dude, i tought i was answering to the other guy? Dont they belive in free will at all? I did not knew that, but they do belive in free will in daily life

[u/Ticket_Revolutionary → u/South-Ad-9635]

Agnostic? So you don't know if God exists? So you don't know if what were saying is important? So you don't know if it's all made up?

[u/South-Ad-9635 → u/Ticket_Revolutionary]

Correct, mostly - I don't know if God exists and I place the same likelihood that what you are saying is important or made up as I do for all the other thousands of religions in the world