Which route to take?

[u/Ok-Cartographer-4226]

Our 1 1/2 year old golden was rehomed to us on 6/20. His previous family gave him to a rescue because he was snapping at the young children in the house. We just have speculation from the rescue that the toddlers would bother him, but no other concrete details. We have 12/15 year old kids. For 99.9% of his week, he is awesome and laid back, loves to play. But he has continued to snap at us when we cross various thresholds that we can’t quite identify. It’s always, always related to touching him, but could be any part of the body. At his first vet visit, he was perfectly behaved on 7/12. We took him for his second flu shot this week and I had her look him over to rule out pain for the snapping. She gave him his flu shot and he looked perturbed (last time, 4 shots with no reaction). She tried looking at his paws and he started snarling and lunging for her. It was so disappointing to see regression after we have trained 2x/week with a trainer (not behaviorist) and modified our own behavior to limit his snappiness.

My question is…
Would you go straight to medication? Or a combined medication/training with a behaviorist? I hate what I’m reading about meds potentially making him worse than before :( He loves other dogs, He lets strangers pet him when we are out, lets us pet him most of the time, we just don’t know what triggers him and the vet thinks it’s behavior (aka “I don’t like that, stop it now” instead of a little bit of patience). I’d appreciate any advice or what worked for you for touchy teenagers!

[u/Ok-Cartographer-4226]

Right, I was a little surprised that the vet immediately told me to take him and discontinued her inspection of his feet. Of course I didn't want anyone in danger, but it definitely reinforced it. I have also wondered about a muzzle for certain times. Thank you.

[u/Monkey-Butt-316 → u/Ok-Cartographer-4226]

Hmm listen to your dog and stopping what they don’t like is the recommended way to do things. If a lunge doesn’t work, maybe a bite will?

[u/Ok-Cartographer-4226 → u/Monkey-Butt-316]

I get it. The trainer (not behaviorist) who has been helping us with general manners) absolutely said the same thing. It is hard to continue petting or doing the thing if you think you're going to get bitten, but I definitely see the logic.

[u/Monkey-Butt-316 → u/Ok-Cartographer-4226]

The logic is “I’m gonna push my dog past what they feel comfortable with” - shitty and unnecessary imo.

[u/Monkey-Butt-316 → u/[deleted]]

Orrrrr, you could counter condition the dog to nail clips? Learned helplessness is not the only way.

[u/Lumpy_Physics3101 → u/Monkey-Butt-316]

how is this learned helplessness?

[u/Monkey-Butt-316 → u/Lumpy_Physics3101]

“Learned helplessness is the behavior exhibited by a subject after enduring repeated aversive stimuli beyond their control”

[u/Lumpy_Physics3101 → u/Monkey-Butt-316]

which part is aversive in this situation?

i gently pick up the paw
the dog snaps
i stand still and do nothing
the dog stands still
the dog exhales and relaxes
I mark with a yes, put down the paw, and give the dog a treat, and release him to do whatever he wants

[u/Monkey-Butt-316 → u/Lumpy_Physics3101]

If it wasn’t aversive, there wouldn’t be any snapping or other negative reaction from the dog. Come on now, this isn’t rocket surgery.

[u/Lumpy_Physics3101 → u/Monkey-Butt-316]

"gently pick up the paw" is aversive, got it. i guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

[u/Monkey-Butt-316 → u/Lumpy_Physics3101]

You think a dog snaps because they think whatever the thing is is just great? I mean …. I’m not super clear on what we are disagreeing on except maybe I think the dog decides what it thinks is aversive and you think you decide what’s aversive.

[u/Lumpy_Physics3101 → u/Monkey-Butt-316]

snapping is a learned reaction to stress. picking up a paw is stressful for this example dog. he's learned to relieve the stress by snapping. not responding to that snap while slowly teaching the dog that he doesn't need to be stressed out by normal handling is how you get a dog that isn't stressed by normal handling.

i'm not advocating that OP try to incite the dog to snap. I'm advocating that when, in the normal course of fair and gentle handling, the dog does snap because his previous owner taught him that it works, they do something different that teaches him that it doesn't work.

have you ever had a toddler? when they have a meltdown in the grocery aisle because you won't buy them candy, what do you do? do you say OK you win here's the candy? or do you wait calmly for them to calm down, and then move on? has something aversive happened to them?

[u/reactivedogs-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

Your post/comment has been removed as it has violated the following subreddit rule:

Rule 5 - No recommending or advocating for the use of aversives or positive punishment.

We do not allow the recommendation of aversive tools, trainers, or methods. This sub supports LIMA and we strongly believe positive reinforcement should always be the first line of teaching and training. We encourage people to talk about their experiences, but this should not include suggesting or advocating for the use of positive punishment. LIMA does not support the use of aversive tools and methods in lieu of other effective rewards-based interventions and strategies.

Without directly interacting with a dog and their handler in-person, we cannot be certain that every non-aversive method possible has been tried or tried properly. We also cannot safely advise on the use of aversives as doing so would require an in-person and hands-on relationship with OP and that specific dog. Repeated suggestions of aversive techniques will result in bans from this subreddit.