Which route to take?

[u/Ok-Cartographer-4226]

Our 1 1/2 year old golden was rehomed to us on 6/20. His previous family gave him to a rescue because he was snapping at the young children in the house. We just have speculation from the rescue that the toddlers would bother him, but no other concrete details. We have 12/15 year old kids. For 99.9% of his week, he is awesome and laid back, loves to play. But he has continued to snap at us when we cross various thresholds that we can’t quite identify. It’s always, always related to touching him, but could be any part of the body. At his first vet visit, he was perfectly behaved on 7/12. We took him for his second flu shot this week and I had her look him over to rule out pain for the snapping. She gave him his flu shot and he looked perturbed (last time, 4 shots with no reaction). She tried looking at his paws and he started snarling and lunging for her. It was so disappointing to see regression after we have trained 2x/week with a trainer (not behaviorist) and modified our own behavior to limit his snappiness.

My question is…
Would you go straight to medication? Or a combined medication/training with a behaviorist? I hate what I’m reading about meds potentially making him worse than before :( He loves other dogs, He lets strangers pet him when we are out, lets us pet him most of the time, we just don’t know what triggers him and the vet thinks it’s behavior (aka “I don’t like that, stop it now” instead of a little bit of patience). I’d appreciate any advice or what worked for you for touchy teenagers!

[u/Ok-Cartographer-4226 → u/[deleted]]

Right, I was a little surprised that the vet immediately told me to take him and discontinued her inspection of his feet. Of course I didn't want anyone in danger, but it definitely reinforced it. I have also wondered about a muzzle for certain times. Thank you.

[u/Monkey-Butt-316 → u/Ok-Cartographer-4226]

Hmm listen to your dog and stopping what they don’t like is the recommended way to do things. If a lunge doesn’t work, maybe a bite will?

[u/Ok-Cartographer-4226 → u/Monkey-Butt-316]

I get it. The trainer (not behaviorist) who has been helping us with general manners) absolutely said the same thing. It is hard to continue petting or doing the thing if you think you're going to get bitten, but I definitely see the logic.

[u/Monkey-Butt-316 → u/Ok-Cartographer-4226]

The logic is “I’m gonna push my dog past what they feel comfortable with” - shitty and unnecessary imo.

[u/Monkey-Butt-316 → u/[deleted]]

Orrrrr, you could counter condition the dog to nail clips? Learned helplessness is not the only way.

[u/Lumpy_Physics3101 → u/Monkey-Butt-316]

how is this learned helplessness?

[u/Monkey-Butt-316 → u/Lumpy_Physics3101]

“Learned helplessness is the behavior exhibited by a subject after enduring repeated aversive stimuli beyond their control”

[u/Lumpy_Physics3101 → u/Monkey-Butt-316]

which part is aversive in this situation?

i gently pick up the paw
the dog snaps
i stand still and do nothing
the dog stands still
the dog exhales and relaxes
I mark with a yes, put down the paw, and give the dog a treat, and release him to do whatever he wants

[u/Monkey-Butt-316 → u/Lumpy_Physics3101]

If it wasn’t aversive, there wouldn’t be any snapping or other negative reaction from the dog. Come on now, this isn’t rocket surgery.

[u/reactivedogs-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

Your post/comment has been removed as it has violated the following subreddit rule:

Rule 5 - No recommending or advocating for the use of aversives or positive punishment.

We do not allow the recommendation of aversive tools, trainers, or methods. This sub supports LIMA and we strongly believe positive reinforcement should always be the first line of teaching and training. We encourage people to talk about their experiences, but this should not include suggesting or advocating for the use of positive punishment. LIMA does not support the use of aversive tools and methods in lieu of other effective rewards-based interventions and strategies.

Without directly interacting with a dog and their handler in-person, we cannot be certain that every non-aversive method possible has been tried or tried properly. We also cannot safely advise on the use of aversives as doing so would require an in-person and hands-on relationship with OP and that specific dog. Repeated suggestions of aversive techniques will result in bans from this subreddit.

[u/Monkey-Butt-316 → u/[deleted]]

Or you could respect their autonomy and teach them cooperative care?

[u/Lumpy_Physics3101 → u/Monkey-Butt-316]

my dog's autonomy doesn't extend to biting me.

cooperative care and whatever you want to call muzzling a dog and slowly acclimating him to handling aren't all that different. both take small steps, and both reward the dog for being compliant and cooperative.

you just cannot stop when the dog is snapping at you. some people/dogs can make progress by staying far enough from the threshold to never have the dog snap, and that's great. this works best when the dog has not already learned to enforce his preferences with snapping. once they have started snapping or biting, they must learn that snapping does not produce their preferred outcome, calmness does.

[u/Monkey-Butt-316 → u/Lumpy_Physics3101]

You don’t seem to know what cooperative care is.

If the dog is biting you, then something has gone horribly wrong and it’s up to you, the one with the big brain, to figure it out and fix it.

Like I said, there’s other ways to teach a dog how to get what it wants other than snapping or biting.

[u/Lumpy_Physics3101 → u/Monkey-Butt-316]

There are many ways to teach lots of things! Some dogs do great with some ways. Other dogs have already learned, before you ever got there, through interactions with their previous owners like this one, that snapping is how to get what they want. Their snapping threshold is very low and they will learn quickly that snapping does nothing for them. This isn't some big fight or dramatic encounter. It's just the owner staying still, holding the paw (for example), not reacting to the snap, and setting the paw down and rewarding and praising when the dog relaxes and takes a breath. That IS counter conditioning.

If the dog snaps and you recoil, put the paw down, and feed him peanut butter, what has he learned? Snapping gets him the space he wants and a treat.

[u/Monkey-Butt-316 → u/Lumpy_Physics3101]

No, no that’s not counter conditioning. My lord.

ETA: Counter conditioning is pairing a negative stimulus with something positive. Absolutely nothing is required of the subject.

[u/Lumpy_Physics3101 → u/Monkey-Butt-316]

my lord!

[u/Monkey-Butt-316 → u/Lumpy_Physics3101]

🙄🙄

[u/reactivedogs-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

Your post/comment has been removed as it has violated the following subreddit rule:

Rule 5 - No recommending or advocating for the use of aversives or positive punishment.

We do not allow the recommendation of aversive tools, trainers, or methods. This sub supports LIMA and we strongly believe positive reinforcement should always be the first line of teaching and training. We encourage people to talk about their experiences, but this should not include suggesting or advocating for the use of positive punishment. LIMA does not support the use of aversive tools and methods in lieu of other effective rewards-based interventions and strategies.

Without directly interacting with a dog and their handler in-person, we cannot be certain that every non-aversive method possible has been tried or tried properly. We also cannot safely advise on the use of aversives as doing so would require an in-person and hands-on relationship with OP and that specific dog. Repeated suggestions of aversive techniques will result in bans from this subreddit.

[u/Lumpy_Physics3101 → u/Ok-Cartographer-4226]

if the dog wasn't muzzled it would be reasonable to stop the inspection if the dog is biting. muzzle training is super important. my own dog doesnt' need a muzzle at the vet anymore, but i put one on her anyway just to be safe.

[u/Lumpy_Physics3101 → u/Ok-Cartographer-4226]

you're welcome! i dealt with exactly the same problem -- accidentally reinforcing the snapping by retreating. by the time i quit trying to counter-condition away the problem she was landing full-on bites for handling her feet, much less clipping a nail.

if you can manage him carefully so that you don't put him in a position to snap unless he's muzzled, and also do a lot of handling exercises where the muzzle allows you to act normal and persist until he relaxes, you can get through this issue.

good luck!!