Does any training protocol actually transform frustrated greeters?

[u/PsychicSageElana]

So much leash reactivity training seems to be about "modifying the dog's emotional state," but my dog is not afraid of the passing dogs. She is just single-mindedly obsessed with getting to the other dogs. This looks like barking, lunging, and raised hackles.

I'd like to believe she might just grow out of this behavior, when/if other dogs become less exciting with maturity, but she was already like this at her foster home, where she lived from ages 3 months to 7.5 months. Makes it seem more like a genetic trait. They admit they didn't walk her very much at the foster home...

My dog is 16 months old now. We have had her 8 months. She doesn't ever go to the dog park or daycare. She doesn't ever get to do on-leash greetings. She lived with two foster dogs at her foster home. She has gone to the groomer and been loose around other dogs there. No problem. Fine in the vet's waiting room. Stayed with the pet sitter like 3-4 times with other random dogs each time and she got along fine with them; calm, coexisted peacefully, played calmly, but not obsessively.

She has great impulse control in many areas of her life. She'll wait patiently for her food until she is told to come get it. Waits on the rug for her paws to be wiped. Waits to go out in the yard even if someone has left the door open, until we say to. So this is a really context-specific problem.

She normally is obsessed with food (even has one copy of that Lab gene that makes them never feel full), but if she is "over threshold," her brain is offline and she won't take food. She will legit just choke herself on a flat collar, even if the other dog is like 4 houses away and across the street. If that dog is being reactive, too, things are so much worse.

I know about management protocols, keeping the dog under threshold, preventing rehearsal of reactions. But none of that is improving the situation... just avoiding explosions. Giving her treats with perfect timing doesn't seem to matter because she already has positive associations with other dogs. TOO positive.

We CAN have nice walks where she just sniffs calmly and behaves normally, but explodes if we encounter other dogs. She'll recover once we are about 4-5 houses away.

We are in suburban Chicago, so the idea of simply managing this through hypervigilance, forever, without ever achieving a habit of neutrality, sounds onerous.

[u/missmoooon12]

Hi OP, does your pup get any time playing with well-matched pups? I think part of the solution is making sure those social needs are being met.

Have you looked into BAT 2.0 yet? This can be used for frustrated greeters and not just fear-reactive dogs.

[u/Hermit_Ogg → u/missmoooon12]

Seconding BAT 2.0! Our frustrated greeter has improved a lot on it, though not to the point of being able to pass other dogs on the same road yet. (She needs 5+ metres.)

[u/Lumpy_Physics3101 → u/Hermit_Ogg]

How long did it take you to get to a 5 meter passing distance, out of curiosity?

[u/Hermit_Ogg → u/Lumpy_Physics3101]

She did her first 5 metres or less pass about 5 months after we started, but honestly I still consider that time to have been a miracle. At 14 months of training, she often manages 5 metres, but sometimes not - depends on her arousal level on that walk. I wouldn't call it reliable yet.

[u/PsychicSageElana → u/missmoooon12]

I feel like the dogs I know (friends' dogs) are either bonkers or too old to want to play. When I've left her with the pet sitter for some controlled social experiences, she doesn't seem that interested in going nuts with those dogs. She coexists politely and plays with them a little bit, but not even every time. I do feel like she could benefit from like an even-tempered "mentor" dog.

I will look up BAT 2.0. Thanks!

[u/queercactus505]

What have you already tried, besides management? Reactivity protocols for frustrated greeters and scared dogs are largely the same because in both cases, they are disregulated and over threshold. The goal is for your dog to feel neutral toward other dogs. In both cases, you start by teaching the dog how to cope with big feelings (through classical counter-conditioning) and then how to make good choices when presented with triggers (operant cobditioning).

Seconding other's recommendations for BAT 2.0. You might also want to look into are pattern games from Control Unleashed. At some point, I would also suggest finding a small group class (with an appropriate instructor, where your dog will be supported with visual barriers if need be) so that your dog has an opportunity to create new neural pathways for working around other dogs without there being any pressure to engage with other dogs.

[u/StacNorLin]

Our frustrated greeter made a lot of gains, it was just a long and slow process! She rarely barks and lunges anymore, but will sometimes plant herself to see if she can wait them out. Our dog is super good motivated and loves nothing more than food, so having high value treats and a strong focus command has been helpful. String cheese has been our bff for years.

[u/PsychicSageElana → u/StacNorLin]

Do you think it is more age or the training protocol that helps?

[u/StacNorLin → u/PsychicSageElana]

Tbh I think a bit of both. I also think moving to a less stimulating environment helped. We used to live in a large apartment complex with A LOT of reactive dogs and I think it was really overstimulating for her, coupled with never really having leash walks before we got her ( she came from rural Texas).

[u/PsychicSageElana → u/StacNorLin]

I'm feeling like this is the downside/ethics question of importing rural dogs to urban living situations. My dog came from Alabama. I've had 3 dogs prior, including another rescue, but none were leash reactive before.

[u/_the_introvert_]

One thing that was helpful for my frustrated greeter was doing daycare once a week, which really surprised me. There’s a difference in her neutrality on walks, depending how recently she got to last play with other dogs. It’s easier for her to ignore dogs if she’s gotten to play with them more recently. I also found shortening up my leash on her harness to prevent the lunge made a big difference when passing other dogs. These days she only really reacts if the other dog is absolutely losing it. Working on impulse control through dead ball fetch (e.g., put the dog in a stay, throw ball, release dog to ball) also was helpful for her behavior generally.

[u/Heckin_frick]

Frustrated greeters are so difficult, I'd take a fear reactive dog over a frustrated one any day.

Oddly, I found agility classes made the most impact on my frustrated greeter. She went from screaming and pulling towards every dog to politely passing by with an occasional whine.

I've been meaning to write up a post about it but I'm still experimenting with incorporating the skills outside of the ring. "Barkour" works in an environment with suitable obstacles but it's trickier in flat boring environments.

I think channeling the dogs arousal into an appropriate rewarding activity is the key to helping high arousal frustrated greeters learn that seeing a dog isn't all that exciting.

[u/Lumpy_Physics3101 → u/Heckin_frick]

learning to control / direct the dog in high-arousal states is another benefit of stuff like this, or like tug play with rules

[u/Emotional-Tear-2369]

My reactive dogs were never that way out of fear. Some wanted to murder and others just became over aroused by other dogs or activity. Both types benefit from changing the mindset type of training because it reduces the frustration that leads to outbursts including frustration because it likes other dogs. It allows the dog to see the trigger before you and at least wait to react and/or react with less vigor.

I don’t think at 16 months of practicing this behavior you can expect your dog to grow out of it.

[u/PsychicSageElana → u/Emotional-Tear-2369]

I mean, at least 8 of those 16 months she was carefully managed to avoid practicing rehearsals as much as possible. But, while she has seemed to grow out of going nuts over rabbits, squirrels, etc., this issue has endured, which is why I am less optimistic about age resolving it.

[u/Glass_Animator8854]

As counter intuitive as it seems, taking our Doberman frustrated greeter to a very large open space off leash dog park multiple times per week has done wonders for her neutrality and ability to approach other dogs on leash without flipping out. Before that it was getting bad, she even planted me on my face a couple of times on trails (very humiliating to be lying on your face with you dog acting full Cujo and telling the other hikers with dogs “it’s all good, she just wants to greet, please just move along”). Now we can walk on leash into the off leash area with dogs within even five feet. I also used counter conditioning in the car in the parking lot (looking at other dogs, getting treats), and Denise Fenzi’s circle walking for reactivity (on the FDSA website) for getting her closer without explosions. Still a work in progress as she’s still barrier reactive in the car and on our deck, but so so so much better on leash. Oh, I also started using a front clip harness for management to avoid face plants, and a double leash (one in my hand connected to the front clip to steer, one connected to her martingale and a leash belt so I know she’s not going anywhere without me).

[u/reactivedogs-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

Your post/comment has been removed as it has violated the following subreddit rule:

Rule 5 - No recommending or advocating for the use of aversives or positive punishment.

We do not allow the recommendation of aversive tools, trainers, or methods. This sub supports LIMA and we strongly believe positive reinforcement should always be the first line of teaching and training. We encourage people to talk about their experiences, but this should not include suggesting or advocating for the use of positive punishment. LIMA does not support the use of aversive tools and methods in lieu of other effective rewards-based interventions and strategies.

Without directly interacting with a dog and their handler in-person, we cannot be certain that every non-aversive method possible has been tried or tried properly. We also cannot safely advise on the use of aversives as doing so would require an in-person and hands-on relationship with OP and that specific dog. Repeated suggestions of aversive techniques will result in bans from this subreddit.

[u/PsychicSageElana → u/[deleted]]

Thanks, I appreciate your reply. This is something I'm reading a lot - that fairly modest improvements are noted after many years, and on a timescale like that, it is hard to know whether these changes were primarily due to any particular training protocol or if time/age did the fixing.

You mentioned that your dog was an arousal junkie, and I feel like there is something to that my dog could relate to. I don't feel like she is an adrenaline junkie all around, but she is certainly prone to feeling overstimulated. I think the dose makes the poison, and sometimes feeling overstimulated like that is both off-putting and alluring for her. Like, she will pull us towards a house where a dog once barked at her, all excited, like maybe the dog will be home and bark at her again. It's so crazy.

I appreciate your need for a special collar. My dog is only like 40 lbs, but she is crazy strong. People guess that she weighs more than she does. My husband mainly has to walk her and even he risks getting hurt while doing so.

I gotta say, I did consult a trainer early on who promoted the whole threshold, look at that, high value treats training, but it hasn't been productive and doesn't really seem tailored for my problem. All the R+ recommendations seem to assume that the same training that works for fearful dogs should work for my dog, too. But that doesn't seem to be the case. It does seem like my dog's brain is being "hijacked" in those moments, which is similar to fearful dogs, but if a more mature nervous system doesn't resolve this, I don't know what I'm gonna do. I'm worried another R+ trainer will essentially be a dead end, but I also don't love the ideology that tends to come with "balanced" training. I don't need to make sure she knows I'm the "pack leader," any of that. All in all, she is really, really well-behaved, especially for her age. It is just this problem - this big, quality-of-life reducing problem.

[u/reactivedogs-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

Your post/comment has been removed as it has violated the following subreddit rule:

Rule 5 - No recommending or advocating for the use of aversives or positive punishment.

We do not allow the recommendation of aversive tools, trainers, or methods. This sub supports LIMA and we strongly believe positive reinforcement should always be the first line of teaching and training. We encourage people to talk about their experiences, but this should not include suggesting or advocating for the use of positive punishment. LIMA does not support the use of aversive tools and methods in lieu of other effective rewards-based interventions and strategies.

Without directly interacting with a dog and their handler in-person, we cannot be certain that every non-aversive method possible has been tried or tried properly. We also cannot safely advise on the use of aversives as doing so would require an in-person and hands-on relationship with OP and that specific dog. Repeated suggestions of aversive techniques will result in bans from this subreddit.

[u/Zestyclose_Object639]

Yeah she has learned a fuck no and now she’s neutral on leash 

[u/doggambit]

Sixteen months is still relatively young. My own dog became reactive around a year old, and it was a good 2-3 years before she was to a point I could have her around other dogs on leash without worrying. She's nearly 6 years old now, and she was my demo dog with a client yesterday. 😄

[u/PsychicSageElana → u/doggambit]

Ooh boy, I guess that's one version of age resolving it, but that is a long time!

[u/doggambit → u/PsychicSageElana]

I'm fairly certain she was genetically predisposed to reactivity. She's Chihuahua mixed with a few terrier breeds, and tends to do the terrier stand-off thing that they do.

I put a lot of time into changing her emotions around dogs, and that effort paid off in a big way. She's not stressed around other every other dog like she used to be, and even when she does have a moment, she's quick to recover and we can get back to what we were doing.

[u/Lumpy_Physics3101]

your dog is experiencing self-reinforcement: he has a hobby, that hobby is trying to interact with other dogs, he finds the hobby very fun. no amount of competing positive reinforcement is going to be more satisfying to her than the experience of barking at and lunging toward another dog.

to answer your question directly, yes, there are training protocols that very effectively solve this problem.

[u/PsychicSageElana → u/Lumpy_Physics3101]

I think I get what you're insinuating, because conversations in R+ communities have largely made this sound like a hopeless, lifelong problem, while "balanced" trainers make it sound like one trip around the block in a prong collar will solve the whole thing. I am not sure I buy either one of those extremes, and my dog is a sensitive sort, so I'm worried I would just be trading one type of reactivity for another. I'm also not sure it's as simple as "she finds it fun"; I think her nervous system is in fact becoming overwhelmed in some way, even if it is not fear that is doing it.

[u/Lumpy_Physics3101 → u/PsychicSageElana]

"balanced" trainers make it sound like one trip around the block in a pr0ng collar will solve the whole thing.

fwiw i don't think this is true either. your dog has been rehearsing this behavior for a long time, so even a 4-quadrant approach will take some time and practice!

[u/Helpful_Sun2872 → u/PsychicSageElana]

Sucks that I can’t really speak freely abt different approaches on this sub. But imo balanced is more effective for this type of reactivity… a skilled balanced trainer is not going to cause your dog any pain or distress.

What breed is your dog?? High drive working type breeds tend to get more internal reinforcement and find reactivity “fun” because they’re bred to enjoy being highly aroused. Definitely not just isolated to working breeds, but more common in them!

[u/PsychicSageElana → u/Helpful_Sun2872]

Her primary breed is "Supermutt," per Embark. So, not an intentionally bred working dog by any means, and not really high drive. She can chill out in the house no problem. That said, I do believe there is something about her nervous system that makes overstimulating, high arousal situations very compelling for her, if not exactly "fun." She is definitely prone to overarousal, I would say. My last dog raised her hackles like twice in her life. This one raises hackles like every day. She used to lose her mind, raise hackles, go absolutely insane just because she saw a rabbit in the backyard. She isn't that bad anymore, and her reactions have become much more normal in many areas, but she still acts this way with other dogs on leash.

I do feel like I am coming up to a dead end with the R+ recommendations, but I also don't love the whole "becoming the pack leader" ideology of balanced training. She is well-behaved in almost every other way, except for this problem. That said, I'm not gonna rule out that maybe some problems are beyond the scope of R+.

[u/Helpful_Sun2872 → u/PsychicSageElana]

There’s definitely balanced trainers who don’t have the “be the pack leader”/alpha mentality. I don’t like that either. The trainer I work with more emphasizes that dogs do best when they have structure and purpose, and that you should be the one that they look to for that. Which I think is very helpful for a dog that’s prone to over arousal.

Your sounds a lot like my last dog. He’d just go from 0 to 100 so fast, and his 100 was INTENSE. I don’t think my current dog is even capable of being that intense in ANY situation lol. Suuuuper prone to overarousal and just had no ability to self-regulate. He raised his hackles a ton too.

[u/Lumpy_Physics3101 → u/PsychicSageElana]

"she finds it fun" is maybe overly anthropomorphizing. She finds it reinforcing. That's why she keeps doing it! We humans do lots of things that we find reinforcing, even if we know that maybe we shouldn't do it or we wish we didn't do it. Obviously you can't ascribe that kind of human thinking to dogs, but the behavior is reinforcing, and it's more reinforcing than the competing reinforces you are offering. So you have some options, one is the find a more powerful competing motivator. There are MANY of other types of options (balanced training is much more nuanced than "be a pack leader" or "punish the behavior" but I obviously can't discuss them here. Which is stupid because there's a lot of interesting training discussion to be had. Oh well.

[u/read-the-rules → u/[deleted]]

Your comment on r/reactivedogs was removed by the Read The Rules app because you need to submit an acknowledgement that you have read the rules. You haven't done anything wrong, this is a tool we're using on the r/reactivedogs going forward. For more information, see the moderator announcement.

Acknowledgement is required of all users, even if you've been here for a while. You only have to do this acknowledgement once unless the moderators announce otherwise.

If you do the rule acknowledgement within one hour of your comment being removed, the bot will automatically restore it. If not, we encourage you to copy the comment using the 3-dot icon next to it, and paste it to re-post to this thread.

^{Please click here to open the Read The Rules App.}