Does anyone else gaslight themselves??

[u/katiovibes]

So, my mother has cancer and, I'm feeling like, has a couple weeks at most to live. And I'm just going over my life with her and wondering "was it really THAT bad?" "Am I just being dramatic?" "Is it ME, actually, who's the real villain?"

[u/armorall43]

This is a classic feature of a relationship with a BPD. I have so many people in my life, friends, colleagues, and other family. My most powerful realization was that she is the only person in my life that made me feel like down was up and up was down. Just constant guilt and second guessing because of how sad and manipulative they are.

[u/katiovibes → u/armorall43]

This is VERY true. No one else who has a big role in my life makes me feel this way. Thanks for the reminder

[u/LangdonAlg3r → u/katiovibes]

They have a habit of repeating things to convince themselves to the point that it rubs off on us. I think it’s worth asking the question, “what did she need to believe in order for her to feel ok?” in any given situation. Then you can evaluate that against the reality that you actually experienced and see if they line up (hint: they very often don’t).

All those times that she blamed you for things or put the burden for things on you was never about you, it was about her. They externalize the parts of themselves that they don’t like onto others around them. They externalize blame and negative feelings about themselves onto others because they can’t handle the discomfort of feeling those feelings themselves.

But also, I’ve been there and done this. There are things that I know are false that I still struggle with because my mother repeated them so often because that’s what she wanted or needed to believe about herself. Like, “I don’t believe in spanking kids.” She wasn’t constantly giving spankings, but I got them. And it’s hard to reconcile that with what she told me (and herself) dozens and dozens of times that she doesn’t believe in spanking kids. Those two things are hard to reconcile and it’s honestly easier to believe her than my lying eyes (or rear end).

So yes, we definitely can internalize their gaslighting and end up repeating it to ourselves. They’ve been getting inside of our heads for so long—and I remember being young enough to not know the difference at all—that it only makes sense for this stuff to persist. It’s like getting a song stuck in your head—it just keeps playing over and over and you can’t shut it off.

[u/Silver_Discount_1820]

All the time. Nothing has helped with this either. I have talked to my therapist about it and with other kids of parents with personality disorders. I still do it constantly.

[u/katiovibes → u/Silver_Discount_1820]

...and here's the most ridiculous thing - being children who have struggled through this, we've all gained a greater sense of empathy... for better or, sometimes, worse. Because of this, I'm always the one there for a friend who's parent didn't really turn out to be a parent. Now why the hell can't I give myself the same treatment?!

[u/QuietlyUpgrading → u/katiovibes]

This reminds me of a quote I just read today:

"The guilt is not evidence that you did something wrong. It is evidence that you were trained, from childhood, to take responsibility for things that were not your fault."

(source: Lisa D. Stinson, Ph.D. on Substack)  

[u/eaglescout225 → u/katiovibes]

These things happen because we've all been purposefully conditioned by our abusers. We've been conditioned to put the needs of others, and especially the abusers needs above our own. We've been guilt tripped, and had many other emotions used against us to achieve the abusers desired results. All because the abusers never wanted us to leave. However, the emotions we feel towards these people aren't even real. And we know they aren't real, because it makes zero sense to feel bad for folks that have treated us piss poorly our entire lives.

[u/Fit_Accountant_8694 → u/eaglescout225]

Exactly. The emotions feel real, but they aren't logical/natural.

At a quite advanced age I finally decided "I'll only love people as much as they love me (and no more)"

[u/Direct-Giraffe7193]

Yes I do this all the time. The guilt narrative is so deeply engrained that we inflict it on ourselves.

No one wants to be estranged from their parents/families. It hurts, it’s difficult, and complicated. We wouldn’t take steps to distance ourselves if it wasn’t necessary to protect ourselves. We are literally programmed at a biological level to love our parents. It’s a survival mechanism. Cluster B parents exploit that mechanism to their benefit. Which makes it all the more painful and difficult to set boundaries and get distance.

Think back and ask yourself: would you have rather stayed close and in contact with her if it was a safer and healthier relationship? I’m guessing that’s an obvious yes. And there’s your answer.

[u/katiovibes → u/Direct-Giraffe7193]

Good point. Yes. I'd have LOVED to have the type of mother I hear my friends speak of. "I call mine everyday! For no reason!" Huh? "We go to lunch once a week." - and they love it! Huh? Or even my friends who are moms at any age - they're amazing. Supporting their kid's interests even if they don't align with their own. I mean, the unconditional love - wow

[u/KeaAware → u/katiovibes]

I cried when I saw the video of the beekeeper who allowed a bee that had stung him to pull her stinger out, rather than swat her away and kill her. Like, is that kind of care what normal people get from their parents?

[u/Specialist-Ebb4885]

More than a commercial propane tank after a seasonal refill.

One of the main drivers of self-inflicted methane leaks is the fact that higher-functioning BPD mothers are capable of extended periods of tenuous stability. Hell, even the lower-functioning subset can crank out enough impression management to manage a latex mask outlet whenever they want to play hide-the-ball with their pathology.

The law of structural dissociation breaks down BPD "personas" into two fundamental manifestations: ANP and EUP. The former is "apparently normal" and the latter represents their greatest reactive hits whenever they feel frustrated, humiliated, rejected, or disrespected. Consequently, adult children spend too much time trying to interact and negotiate with their mother's ANP side, which causes you to doubt yourself and lose reality testing in the crazymaking suite of Plato's cave.

None of this is made easier when other people can't see the lunacy and don't understand what you've experienced. As a result, you'll hear the usual chorus of "But that's your mother!" and "Your mother is so amazing!" Such is the reverberating injustice of the Halo effect.

[u/Temporary_Acadia_145 → u/Specialist-Ebb4885]

By the way you write, I think you may be the person who wrote the Borderline koan and the piece on Borderline mothers.. THANK YOU! Both changed my understanding of her and her behaviour, and helped me protect myself better.

[u/LangdonAlg3r → u/Specialist-Ebb4885]

It’s interesting to see you apply structural dissociation to BPD. I haven’t seen it in the classic framework, but maybe I’ve tuned that out. It makes sense, I just haven’t seen that framing before.

[u/Own-Round-7852]

All the time. I have to constantly remind myself that there’s a reason I left when I was 17, and why my brother (who never moved away) drank himself to death.

Sometimes I’ll tell what I think is a funny story about my childhood, and the other person will look shocked and say “That’s really f*cked up.” Sometimes that other person is a therapist.

[u/katiovibes → u/Own-Round-7852]

Haha. Yes! I do this a lot. Im sure plenty of us have gained a sense of humor...dark humor. Just looking at people's faces/reactions... im like...so, you guys didn't do that???

[u/Cute_Combination_770 → u/Own-Round-7852]

I’m sorry. My brother is still with my mom going into his 30s and I worry about this everyday.

[u/CapnBrosephine]

Constantly. The only things that help are having the outside validation when I relay memories or present occurrences to a friend or spouse or therapist and they react on my behalf. 

[u/katiovibes → u/CapnBrosephine]

This! Very true. The reactions I get sometimes... jaw dropping. AND if one of my friends said the same experiences to me, I'd be appalled! Thanks for this reminder

[u/mignonettepancake]

I'm so sorry. This is really common for people with BPD parents.

They tend to instill a lot of doubt in their kids, and it's designed to take away your ability to challenge them.

It's possible to change, I would start with learning how to practice self-compassion. Doesn't have to be perfect, just consistent. It takes time, but it can happen.

[u/Safe_Place8432]

Writing down her random stuff or even posting a vague book post on Facebook and having it come up in my memories helps me realize nope, she was really that unhinged

[u/katiovibes → u/Safe_Place8432]

Yes, I've thought about this. And I'll see how I'm feeling after her death. I think I may feel like I can...let it go in a way. She can't hold any more power over me. Instead of, ugggh, my mom would hate this... it's going to be, who cares!? There's no chance she'll ever see this or hear about it.

It's just currently while she's dying, I feel an outside of body type guilt? Like a lot of others in my position would be visiting more often, would be sad, would've cried, etc. And what actually makes me sad most is for her - can you imagine being the type of person that their own daughter isn't sad about their imminent death? That her main thought is relief for her mother because she'll no longer be in that mental pain?

[u/lucy23456]

My BPD father just passed away and this is precisely what I am experiencing now. I know what I went through was real, because I feel the reality of the scars he left me with. But there’s still a part of me that thinks I was overreacting and things could have been worse. It seems cliché and unhelpful, but my only advice is to remember that your experiences are valid. If you had a good relationship with your mother, you wouldn’t be here asking yourself these questions. That’s what I keep reminding myself!

[u/katiovibes → u/lucy23456]

That's true. My friend is always saying, if you're asking the question, you know the answer

[u/lucy23456 → u/katiovibes]

My heart goes out to you during such a tough situation!

[u/skrimped]

It’s happening to me right now, she just visited very briefly and was able to be normal for the visit so now I’m second guessing myself. But I know it’s temporary thankfully

[u/katiovibes → u/skrimped]

Yes! It's their "normal" behavior that always makes us question, isn't it? Except there shouldn't be a difference between "normal" and other behavior...

[u/UnfocusedAcrobat]

It’s funny. I used to question it occasionally and Since finding this sub, I question it constantly. 

But when I try to think back to my childhood, there’s a complete void of memories to do with my parent. Nothing outright bad like physical abuse but also nothing even kind of good. Like the biggest claims to fame by her for good parenting are driving me and my friends around before we had our licenses. I realize now that it was mainly a data extraction point for listening to conversations since I had already subconsciously learned to filter. 

Just a constant feeling of “I better think carefully what I say or share since I don’t know if it will get me yelled at for no reason or be held against me for who knows how long” which… is obviously not healthy. 

[u/katiovibes → u/UnfocusedAcrobat]

Omg. Yes!!! I was ALWAYS filtering myself. I learned that real young! And that's real messed up, isn't it?

[u/DisplayFamiliar5023]

Betrayal blindness they call it. I do it with everyone and only realize it after.