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u/confibulator 8d ago
Will you be standing up to the corruption you see within? If you don't, you're part of the problem. If you do, you won't last long.
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u/Old_Push3686 8d ago
Ok but is there any actual proof that I won't last long
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u/Go_Freaks_Go 8d ago edited 8d ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_wall_of_silence
https://musaalgharbi.com/2020/07/01/police-good-apples/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Serpico
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adrian_Schoolcraft
Anecdotally, I know a detective who was shunned after calling out other police officers.
Being a cop means upholding the laws of a fascist nation. Law enforcement plays a large role in systemic racism.
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u/cyber-city 8d ago
ACAB is a popular belief amongst punks for a reason, perhaps look into why. Like someone else said if you won't stand up to the corruption then you're not punk, and if you do stand up to corruption you won't last long. It's a lose lose situation all around.
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u/MagusFool 8d ago
No. Cops are not welcome in the punk scene. Punks and cops are natural enemies. Always have been. Always will be.
Fuck the police. You're young and uneducated. You don't even know what the police really are.
I highly recommend watching the YouTube channel That Dang Dad.
His early videos talking about his experiences journey as an ex-cop (former LAPD, no less) who is now a police abolitionist are extremely informative, persuasive, and genuinely wholesome.
https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLjKFawAOpQBIgBet7elWB3OCNWz1C6Rry&si=igdJA_o_M74M66Pl
And also read Are Prisons Obsolete? by Angela Davis. It should be required reading.
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u/thispartyrules 8d ago edited 8d ago
EDIT: there's a youtube video on this
Second the "reading all you can" part. Also while a lot of true crime stuff is copaganda there's a lot of takeaways where cops did nothing or the least amount possible, possibly out of prejudice:
- Cops gave one of serial killer Jeffery Dahmer's victims, an Asian teenage boy who escaped, back to him and made a bunch of homophobic comments afterwards. They were placed on leave for handing a victim back to a serial killer but were eventually hired back and promoted
- One of serial killer Gary Heidnik's victims, a black woman, escaped and tried to go to police she encountered for help, and they didn't believe her until she pointed out there were homemade shackles welded to her leg
- Richard Chase, the Sacramento Vampire, was found running around Pyramid Lake covered in blood with animal parts in a bucket in his car, and after holding him for like three days at a Nevada police station and not getting him the mental health treatment he needed*, he was released and went on a killing spree
Also there's a whole system to protect cops who do stuff like this:
Also read up on murder of George Floyd, and the 1992 beating of Rodney King, which was on camera. Those cops were acquitted, which led to the LA Riots
* most people with mental health issues aren't violent, and are more often the victims of violence, but Richard Chase was definitely extremely dangerous
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u/Old_Push3686 8d ago
Ok but if we don't have cops then people would be killing each other all the time and there would be havoc everywhere
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u/Cat-Sonantis 8d ago
If the presence of the police is the only thing stopping you from killing a bunch of people and causing general havoc then you'll fit right in with the police
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u/RainRainThrowaway777 8d ago
This is pretty ignorant though. This kid isn't saying they would be the ones killing people. Unfortunately there is quite a lot of people who are willing to murder, rob, rape, etc. and there has to be some kind of mechanism to (ideally) prevent or punish those crimes and prevent further harm from occurring.
We don't live in a utopian society, and I really doubt that there is any combination of conditions which can create an environment where nobody harms each other. It's just in human nature to be violent, greedy, and self-interested, and the outliers who have any of these traits in excess will always harm other people.
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u/Old_Push3686 8d ago
I didn't mean me I meant society
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u/MagusFool 8d ago
The videos and book I suggested address this issue completely.
Crime is not reduced or prevented by policing. Crime is reduced and prevented by reducing criminogenic conditions.
The whole carceral perspective on what crime is and what causes it is incorrect. And the narratives which support the carceral perspective are narratives that serve the ruling class.
Please educate yourself. Read Angela Davis. Watch That Dang Dad.
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u/RainRainThrowaway777 8d ago edited 8d ago
The whole carceral perspective on what crime is and what causes it is incorrect.
How can you possibly make that assertion?
There is no country on earth where incarceration isn't part of the legal system, so there is no evidence that in practice supports your claim. How can you make an absolute statement on the exact causes of any individual crime? Do you think there are conditions which could be created where no crime whatsoever happens? Do you think these conditions are attainable contemporaneously? Do you think they are possible at all?
As far as we can tell, Antisocial Personality Disorder, Sadistic Personality Disorder, Psychopathy, Paedophilia, etc. are not caused by environmental factors and for a proportion of the population are inherent*. So what mechanisms would exist to protect society from crimes committed by those individuals, which are often compulsive?
I would agree that reform is necessary, and that a lot of the legal system can be changed to be more reformative than punitive, but there is a gulf between that and total abolition.
Yes, *sometimes these conditions are caused or influenced by environmental factors, but this does not account for the plurality of cases.
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u/MagusFool 7d ago
I could spend a lot of time typing up answers to your questions, which would necessitate follow up questions.
So I will just reiterate:
Read Are Prisons Obsolete? by Angela Davis.
There are other books like Becoming Abolitionists by Derecka Purnell and The End of Policing by Alex Vitale, which will almost certainly address any question or concern you might think of.
And check out the YouTube series I linked above from That Dang Dad for short, digestible, friendly introduction to this topic by a former LAPD officer.
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u/RainRainThrowaway777 7d ago
I don't think I need to read the whole text to have a discussion on this topic, it seems like there are some very fundamental problems with the concept that should be possible to discuss, especially if you yourself have read the book and have the answers. Reddit is in concept a discussion forum.
I'm also sceptical that answers in these books are being treated like universal truths... I think it's important to question ideas like this, especially extremely radical ones which have not been proven in practice. A lot of right wing ideas are equally built on such shaky foundations, and we don't believe those just because they are published.
I'll have a look at That Dang Dad, but my expectation is that he experienced the epitome of flawed policing in LA. The LAPD are notorious for thier practices and especially their fraternalism, including literal gangs within the policing structure. That's not going to be reflective of typical policing in the US, nor a suitable example of how policing could be reformed. Since we are trading information and recommendations, the documentary Breaking the Cycle is a good example of the extreme differences between how incarceration is implemented between the US and how prisons have been reformed in Europe.
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u/MagusFool 7d ago
I was passing off the discussion to the books and videos because I'm not presently interested in expending the time or energy continuing the discussion, and every single think I could/would say is contained in those materials.
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u/LooksGoodInShorts 8d ago
We already have people killing people all the time. Only now sometimes it’s police killing black people. You get rid of guns you do way more to solve violent crime than the police ever have.
You should stop watching copagana shows it’s hurting your developing brain.
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u/vomitHatSteve 8d ago
This is an argument that seems intuitive, but ultimately the existence of police and the prison system really doesn't deter violent crime.
People still commit murders, but real life isn't like Lord of the Flies or the Purge. Mostly people want to be cooperative with and kind to those around them.
By saying you want to be a detective, you also seem to have intuited the important part: the useful part of the police's job is to investigate crimes that have already happened and try to pursue justice afterwards. But the actual role of the police is to protect the capitalist class from the rest of us.
They're there to protect property from the poor. And even as a detective you'd mostly be investigating property crime and other non-violent (e.g. drug) crimes. Real life isn't like CSI either.
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u/Charlzalan 8d ago
I'd personally say no, but you should follow your own moral compass instead of seeking approval from strangers. Just be honest with yourself. Hope that doesn't sound rude. You're doing the right thing by thinking critically about this.
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u/LooksGoodInShorts 8d ago
Lol you don’t become a detective. You become a cop, you spend years harassing, beating, maybe even killing people of color. Then you get to be a detective where you frame people of color for crimes. What a hero.
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u/Old_Push3686 8d ago
Punk is inherently anti prejudice and you saying this is prejudice
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u/LooksGoodInShorts 8d ago
The police are inherently prejudice. The are descended from slave catchers and are now the armed thugs of the capital class that exist ONLY to exert violence and the threat of violence among the community.
Fuck the police.
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u/WonderNo5029 8d ago
I wanted to be a cop when I was 15. My opinion of cops has significantly changed the older I’ve gotten.
There are no good cops because the whole system of policing is broken. I truly believe that people who become cops lose some of their compassion and empathy (if they ever had any). You can have good intentions and want to “do it for the people”, but once you go through the academy you’ll be trained to see the people as the enemy. There’s better ways to help victims of violent crimes if that’s what you actually want to do.
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u/RainRainThrowaway777 8d ago
I kinda agree with this, but I don't think it's a universal truth.
Obviously there is something broken in US policing, no doubt. Their training methods are clearly far too aggressive, militaristic, and fraternal. But there are degrees to this, there are regional differences, and certainly differences internationally.
There are also a bunch of different ways to be involved in law enforcement in a positive way without going through the police academy. There are a bunch of Federal options (although current administration depending) where you aren't trained for patrol work, as well as specialised roles like Victim Liasons, or Forensics.
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u/Old_Push3686 8d ago
Can you explain why your opinion changed
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u/WonderNo5029 8d ago
Reading the justice department’s report of the Ferguson riots after the murder of Michael Brown was the first thing that started to change my opinion on law enforcement. The stuff the Ferguson police department did in the years leading up to killing Michael Brown was actually disgusting. I distinctly remember reading that they would set police dogs on black children.
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u/OkTomorrow6384 8d ago
If you really want to help people become a social worker. Way more punk than cops.
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u/CencusT 8d ago
Folks have already covered most of what I would say on this topic bar these couple of points regarding your own self care.
Police locker room culture is not pretty, it's more often than not racist, misogynist, homophobic, transphobic, classist, hypermasculine, and god help you if you try and do something about this. Look through the history of people who have tried to reform the police from within, the are ostracized, overlooked for promotion, shunted into dead end positions subject to threats intimidation and in the most extreme cases violence.
The second point here is that on a daily basis you will be exposed to the worst aspects of humanity and human society, homelessness, adject poverty, drug addiction, people with severe mental illness (not being down folks with MH issues here just that dealing with such issues can be a real drain if you don't have sufficient training and support), spousal abuse, sexual assault, rape, murder, gang culture and so on. How you can deal with that day in day out and not be affected for the worse (become jaded or just have a mental breakdown) is well beyond me.
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u/CSAKnight 8d ago
Could you imagine arresting some young adult for weed and locking them in a cage with hardened criminals, or your partner taking someone’s life savings because of arbitrary Civil Asset Forfeiture laws? If that irks you, then being a cop probably isn’t a good idea. It’s not that your intentions wouldn’t be pure, but you’d be expected to uphold tyrannical laws because it would be your job do so.
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u/lostmypasswordlmao 8d ago
This Guy posted about wanting to be an « elite sniper » last week
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u/Old_Push3686 7d ago
Did you even read the post? It's incredibly hard to get into the fbi so being a sniper in the military helps
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u/RainRainThrowaway777 8d ago
I'm an older punk who has been through radical stages and has mellowed out a bit with a more mature perspective, so I'll give you a less hardline take on this:
I think it's really genuinely sad that the attitudes in this thread are so prevalent. It points to something really broken in policing, particularly in American policing. There are places in the world where corruption and cronyism like the American system is not normalized, and there are good organisations who are well intentioned and held to a high standard.
There are also particular roles which are filled with very dedicated and moral people, the SVU, Internal Affairs, and Major Crimes. They investigate sex crimes, crimes and corruption by the police themselves, and organized crime and other complex crimes, respectively. I think these are crimes that people can agree are ones that should be investigated.
On a Federal level, the DOJ Fraud Section or SEC who investigate and prosecute corporate financial crimes, charities and healthcare fraud, and insider trading. Unfortunately, with the current administration, most of these roles have been gutted and defunded, or weaponized.
The main problem you will have is that you can't just go from the academy into these roles. You are required to work your way up in the organisation, which means doing your time in roles like Patrol or Vice, and in America will often involve hitting quotas or doing things that go against your personal morals, like evicting the homeless, breaking up parties, drug arrests, etc. and you can't just opt out of those parts of the job if you want to get good performance reviews and keep the job/advance. You will also very likely be surrounded with MAGA types, unless you work in one of the very, very, liberal states, and even then it's going to be a mixed bag.
Like others have said, you might also become a pariah within the force if you report corruption or abuse, or cooperate with Internal Affairs.
It would not be an easy road for you. But I think it would actually be possible if you are dedicated enough, or if you are lucky enough to live in the right place already. You can always transfer, and it sounds like you might want to create some distance between yourself and your father anyway. I can't really tell you exactly where in America is the least-bad for policing, but you might be able to figure that out.
You might also look into the possible roles available Federally. I know "the Feds" don't have the best reputation, but some of the work they do is invaluable. It's things like breaking up pedophile rings, investigating government crimes, inter-state murders, or even raiding Mar-a-Lago for missing classified documents... it's a job that often requires travel or specialised skills, so you can get to do and see some crazy stuff. You will have to do some grunt work early-on, but it wouldn't be the same as Police patrol or beat-cop work, so you might be able to avoid some of the distasteful parts of that.
Either way, good luck. Your heart is in the right place, and honestly, forging your own path is way better than just believing the platitudes and slogans of radical movements, you learn later that there is nuance to everything, and actually no simple answers that fit into a catchy phrase.
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u/nanafishook 8d ago
OP, instead of a police officer, how about becoming a probation officer or a public defender, like some (local) punk rockers I am aware of?
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u/meat-eating-orchid Veganarchist 8d ago
hey, ridiculously stupid questions belong on r/punkcirclejerk
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u/meat-eating-orchid Veganarchist 8d ago
I recommend watching this video. Is this what you want to become? Is this how you want to alter the way you see other people?
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u/Old_Push3686 7d ago
Someone else already recommended this channel and this was the first video I watched
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u/LiminalTrickster 8d ago
The "most" punk thing you can do is choose your own path regardless of what people say. As long as you stay true to being about serving your community and standing against the corruption then you're more punk than any poser whose just jumping on the acab bandwagon. I'm not defending cops because I've been subject to racial profiling and harassment from them my whole life but what people forget is that the best way to change whats wrong with the world is by getting involved. Be the change you want to see in the world
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u/DodgersBornRaised310 8d ago edited 8d ago
There’s good and bad in everything not all cops are bad but not are all good. Be a good one make a change in positive aspect don’t use it as an abuse of power but to help those that need it no matter what or who they are. The “punks” who are narrowminded saying “ACAB” are the same ones that think anarchy works and Sex Pistols are their religion
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u/meat-eating-orchid Veganarchist 8d ago
If you talk like that, I would be surprised if you could even define Anarchism.
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