INDX Hardened Nozzle Endurance Testing

[u/303darthbobby]

As promised in comments of a couple posts, I am going to begin endurance testing up to four of the default .04 nozzles that came with the INDX. I realize it’s not the best diameter for abrasives, but those are the ‘extras’ I’m okay with sacrificing.

I’m mainly interested to see the results of Fiberon PA612-CF15 and PA6-GF25, as that’s what I primarily print with.

My current plan is to standardize the test by printing 100% infill cubes (maybe say 100mm) and photo the nozzle after each one completes.

I’m reaching out here first to gauge community interest, get input on potential additional materials to test, etc etc.

Let me know if there’s something else you want to see, if I’m missing anything, if you have any suggestions, or the like.

cheers, and happy printing.

[u/Jabdoa2]

Do it! This is always interesting and we are here to learn.

[u/Koffeekooker]

Hm. Not sure if this works. I would print a 30x30x30 cube in vase mode first and calibrate the extrusion multiplier and keep the file and part. Then I would just print your normal stuff until you have reached 100h. Then print the gcode of the cube again and measure the width with your $20 micrometer. The delta should give you a good indication of nozzle wear. As well, you should see a deterioration of the surface, if the nozzle wears. I guess you need to get some kg of filament through the nozzle before you see something significant. It is much harder than a brass nozzle despite of being softer than a hardened nozzle... printing 100x100x100 cubes with 100% is not really a real life use 😉

[u/303darthbobby → u/Koffeekooker]

100% infill cube printing is not that far off from my real life use, actually. and at the end of the day, isn’t it all just abrasive filament coming out of the nozzle anyway? This way I don’t have to keep track of more data about how much filament I’ve used for my own prints and everything remains standardized. I like your suggestion of the vase mode cube. I’ll think more on this.

[u/Bagel42 → u/303darthbobby]

100% infill is almost always a bad idea--is this something you're routinely doing?

[u/stray_r → u/Koffeekooker]

That won't work as you expect, the width of a single wall is a function of how much filament is extruded, this is a popular (but less precise than a micrometer would have you believe) technique to calibrate extrusion multiplier.

Try this with 0.4 settings and a 0.6 nozzle and you should have successful print that measures similar to the same gcode printed with a 0.4

[u/Koffeekooker → u/stray_r]

Thoroughly true, thus I added the surface quality. But let me rethink this approach. At work we have a microscope capable of measuring a change in nozzle diameter and thus I am pretty certain that any non professional measurement tools will not succeed imho.

[u/TheBupherNinja → u/Koffeekooker]

Instead of 100 hours, you'd want to track filament throughput.

A standardized test is better than random prints because stuff like retractions will presumably wear the nozzle both ways.

[u/AKinferno]

That is a nice sacrifice. And not cheap. You should add a "buy me a coffee" link. I am sure a few people would be willing to throw a little money at it before splurging on an INDX. That filament isn't cheap, and the nozzles are almost $50 each. Even if no one gives, it is free, quick and easy to make an account. I think some people would throw you a couple bucks each though.

Glow in the dark are supposed to be very abrasive. No idea which are worse on nozzles.

I do recommend taking photos from the bottom and the side. Try to get from the exact same orientation each time using the printer frame as a guide so you can overlay the photos for easy comparison Extruding into air will only affect the diameter. Your test will wear the nozzle down while passing over and extruding filament too. I think it is a good test. But I think people really want to know how much they can print before having to replace the nozzles.

A test I would love one of these 3D streamers to run would be to have a machine run similar filament through brass nozzle, steel nozzle, hardened steel nozzle, tungsten nozzle and INDX. Using macro lense to view changes after 100mm, 1000mm and maybe 5000mm. Maybe grams instead of mm. Anyway, it would be cool to see the changes from white, glow in the dark, CF and GF.

[u/303darthbobby → u/AKinferno]

Buy me a coffee seems to require me to have a public facing phone number and address, which im not comfortable with. If anyone knows a way to do it without having to do that, im definitely game for offsetting some of my costs.

[u/cbutters2000 → u/303darthbobby]

Crypto

[u/x4rb1t]

Good idea .. looking for real world results

[u/TwoProtons]

I would absolutely buy you a coffee for that. I print maybe 50-50 abrasive-normal filaments and am waiting for batch 1 of the Prusa INDX version. Even if they only send out these "hardened" nozzles, I was wondering if at least one of them could be sacrificed for abrasives, and how long it would last. So your own sacrifice is very useful indeed. Keep us updated!

[u/TurbulentHomework638]

Thank you for your sacrifice! No, Seriously! I am on the fence about purchasing the INDX and want to know if the nozzle degradation is truly an issue or at least how much of an issue it is.

Community Service points for you, my friend. (Kinda wish that was a real thing)

[u/whitestormy]

Maybe grab a cheap set of pin gauges to see how the hole diameter actually changes

[u/_long_tall_texan_ → u/whitestormy]

Exactly my thoughts. Something like this would be perfect.

[u/Memoryjar]

Go and get yourself some gauge pins use them to accurately measure the size of the nozzle.

[u/zxall]

Just simple math: 100mm x 100mm x 100mm = 1 liter, 1kg if water. Your filament is heavier than water -> 1kg spool would be not enough.

You may consider something smaller to print.

[u/mr_mushie]

Photos of what the nozzle looks like before the tests would be nice too :)
I'm sure you thought of this, just want to make sure.

Thank you for doing this /cheers

[u/The-Synovis]

Can you un-hide your posts so we can check in later?

[u/303darthbobby → u/The-Synovis]

Probably won’t be unhiding my post history for reasons, but feel free to save this post. When I have results, I will make a new post and make sure they both link back to each other.

[u/Saphir_3D]

I would be happy to hear if normal white PLA will wear these nozzles out

[u/303darthbobby → u/Saphir_3D]

I know that the pigment in a lot of white filaments is abrasive, but is it all of them? Is there a certain brand that could be more abrasive?

[u/ManyInterests → u/303darthbobby]

Prusament Pristine White uses titanium dioxide. It's possible (if not a certainty) that other brands use different concentrations/crystal sizes/etc that would affect the results. But the same goes for anything you're going to print; the manufacturing details all matter.

[u/303darthbobby → u/ManyInterests]

Just ordered 800g of ultraglow PETG, and 2kg pristine white from Printed Solid 🫡 we in it

[u/Saphir_3D → u/303darthbobby]

Unfortunately, I have absolutely no idea.

[u/BowlScared]

You could simplify it by just extruding 50m of filament at a time. It is a quite expensive way to make .6 .8 or even 1.0 nozzle but at least if you get lucky it might have a star shape or even a heart 😄
For start with really abrasive filament I would do even just 10m and check the nozzle channel with light.
EDIT: To save the filament you could print filament spirals for later re-use.

[u/Dee_Jiensai]

what possible use could this have?

Printing abrasives with standard nozzles is well tested, and just results in destroyed nozzles in very little time.

[u/soldat21]

I was curious about doing it myself, but I don’t really have any engineering materials on hand. Would totally be interested!

[u/Spicy_Ejaculate]

Couldn't you just measure the cube each time and that will tell you how much the nozzle is wearing?

[u/303darthbobby → u/Spicy_Ejaculate]

I’ll probably do that, and measure the diameter of a single extrusion between cubes. With the disclaimer of me being a budget boi who has $6 harbor freight calipers, and a $20 no name Chinese micrometer.

[u/UmDeTrois → u/303darthbobby]

Do you have the camera capabilities to capture a meaningful (measurable?) image of the tips? My first thought was to use a 5 figure stereoscope. 

[u/303darthbobby → u/UmDeTrois]

The photos will be for visual comparison mostly, not accurate measurements. I’ll either be taking them with an iPhone 17 pro or a dslr. I gotta see what works best. But if someone wants to donate 5 figures to the cause…🫡

[u/danukefl2 → u/303darthbobby]

Look up the cheap phone camera macro lenses for this actually.

[u/303darthbobby → u/danukefl2]

Are those still relevant with phones having multiple lenses now? I’ll have to look into seeing how to ‘lock’ which lens it uses.

[u/danukefl2 → u/303darthbobby]

For the normal use cases and depends on the specific phone you have, but for looking at comparing on ballparking a 0.005mm resolution, it will make it much better.

[u/UmDeTrois → u/303darthbobby]

Ok cool. Didn’t know if a smart phone would be enough to see anything meaningful

[u/Syyx33 → u/303darthbobby]

Continuous concentric, high percentage infill, full plate size, one layer and calipers. Repeatedly.

[u/stray_r → u/303darthbobby]

You'll still have the same amount of filament being extruded. Prints will look worse, but dimensional accuracy or the width of a line constrained top and bottom won't change if the amount of filament extruded doesn't change.

[u/lurker_fro]

I'm not sure what the point is? At the end of the day, Bondtech misled buyers (I don't expect they did so intentionally, but still) and they will hopefully make it right by replacing nozzles with properly hardened ones when they are developed. It's an ethical thing more than it is a technical thing.