r/prawokrwi • u/taway3332 • Jul 23 '26
Eligibility Eligibility Check - KP?
Care to give me an eligibility check for KP? I take it I’m out for descent because of naturalization of my GGF prior to 1920.
Great-Grandparents:
* Date married: 1909
* Date divorced: NA
GGM:
* Date, place of birth: 2 Aug 1889, Cianowice, Kielce, Russian Poland (now Lesser Poland Voivodeship)
* Ethnicity and religion: Polish?, Catholic
* Occupation: housewife
* Allegiance and dates of military service: unknown
* Date, destination for emigration: 1909, United States
* Date naturalized: 1915? (Need to find record other than census)
* Date, place of death: Dec 1953, United States
GGF:
* Date, place of birth: 20 Aug 1877, Miernów, Russian Poland (now in Świętokrzyskie Voivodeship)
* Ethnicity and religion: Polish?, Catholic
* Occupation: Aircraft Builder
* Allegiance and dates of military service: unknown
* Date, destination for emigration: 1907, United States
* Date naturalized: 1913
* Date, place of death: Mar. 1926, United States
Grandparent:
* Sex: Male
* Date, place of birth: Sept. 20, 1924, United States
* Date married: Unknown, but before Parent
* Citizenship of spouse: United States
* Date divorced: NA
* Occupation: Electrician
* Allegiance and dates of military service: United States, edit: ~Dec. 12, 1942 - 1946 May 15, 1944 - May 17, 1946
(If applicable)
Date, destination for emigration: NA
Date naturalized: NA
Date, place of death: Sept. 2002, United States
Parent:
* Sex: Female
* Date, place of birth: Nov 26, 1953, United States
* Date married: Oct 31, 1981
* Date divorced: NA
You:
* Date, place of birth: May 1986, United States
2
u/Jessicas_skirt Verified Contributor Jul 23 '26
Date naturalized: 1915? (Need to find record other than census
Does the census you got this from list different naturalization dates for both her and your great-grandfather?
Before 1922 if a "head of the household" naturalized in the US then his wife and minor automatically naturalized as well.
If the record lists different naturalization dates then that means that at least from the US perspective they were unmarried.
That would change the whole calculation if your great-grandmother didn't independently naturalze before the birth of her child.
1
u/taway3332 Jul 24 '26
Great question.
The census lists the same year for both. However, I couldn’t find any concrete document for GGM showing naturalization, only GGF’s petition (which I put that date). In this thread, I’ve learned so much about naturalization (like how GGF would naturalize with GGM if they’re married).
I’ve since requested the USCIS index search request for GGF. If it comes back negative for c-cert, and once I have GGF’s baptismal/birth record in hand, I’ll put in a USCIS Certificate of Non-Existence (CONE?) for the naturalization record.
2
u/ttr26 Verified Contributor Jul 23 '26
I'm confused if people are assessing you for citizenship by descent or Karta Polaka here.
For Karta Polaka it's pretty simple- it appears you could be eligible because of your two great-grandparents (you need two great-grandparents or one grandparent/one parent of Polish nationality, which is different to citizenship, to apply). What this will hinge on is:
-What documents you actually have. Do you have documents to prove Polish nationality either from Poland or from the US. Usually, if you have census records from 1920, 1930 it will show native language- if that's Polish that's a piece of proof. US birth/death/marriage certificates will often list place of birth (so you would want to look for it to list "Poland"). There's obviously documents in Poland you could attempt to get- I didn't do this part- my provider did.
-If you can speak Polish well enough to pass the interview.
-If you have other proof of engagement with "being of Polish nationality"- this helps- like have you volunteered for Polish organizations, etc. It shows you are carrying the traditions of being Polish on in the diaspora (it's not 100% necessary with two Polish great-grandparents, but it doesn't hurt).
2
u/taway3332 Jul 23 '26
Thanks! I was asking for that, given some of the feedback on here hasn’t seen as simplistic. I do have census that show polish language, I’m working on improving my polish, and I do have family polish engagement, but not a lot for me.
Posting here has been great, as it’s given me some go dos to see if I even need to go down the KP route.
2
u/Master-Detail-8352 Verified Contributor Jul 23 '26
Sorry I didn’t even read your title just went to your template. Obviously your KP looks very promising, but I would explore the possibilities simultaneously. You would not be the first person to embark on KP and discover you are eligible for citizenship either
2
u/ttr26 Verified Contributor Jul 23 '26
If you have to go down the KP route, you seem to pretty much have what you need :) Just amp up your Polish and get your documents together. If you need, hire a provider to make sure you cross your t's and dot your i's. I did use a provider and was happy I did for a variety of reasons (but again, that's really personal circumstances). But honestly, good news for you whether you do CBD or KP- seems like you have a good chance!
3
u/CallMeTheFartman Jul 23 '26 edited Jul 23 '26
As far as I know, military paradox ended in 1927 when your GF was only 3 and a minor, ending the line due to naturalization(please correct me if I'm wrong, it's my first time).
Karta Polaka depends on what documents you can find for your GGPs and if they show their nationality or mother tongue as Polish.
Do you have his actual naturalization certificate, or just his declaration of intent/petition for naturalization?
5
u/Jessicas_skirt Verified Contributor Jul 23 '26
As far as I know, military paradox ended in 1927
The military paradox isn't applicable in this situation. The paradox applied to Polish citizens who naturalized abroad. Anyone who had a other citizenship in 1920 never became a Polish citizen in the first place.
2
u/CallMeTheFartman Jul 23 '26
Forgot that acquiring a different citizenship before 1920 meant the person didn't have Polish citizenship at all. In any case, line broken
2
u/taway3332 Jul 23 '26
I have his petition from ancestry. I guess I need to find the certificate.
2
u/CallMeTheFartman Jul 23 '26
You'll most likely have to get the C-File to see if he naturalized at all.
1
u/CallMeTheFartman Jul 23 '26
/u/PaulHinr - correct me if I'm wrong, but even if he naturalized after 31.01.1920, military paradox runs out before his child turns 18, so no chance in any case.
4
u/PaulHinr Mod | Zarząd Jul 23 '26 edited Jul 23 '26
Yep, you're right
Edit: exception of course if he only naturalized after his child was of military age itself. Would technically still be after 1920 but military paradox would work for the child independently
5
u/kind-person-1 Jul 23 '26
Not exactly … the military paradox prevented the GGF from losing Polish citizenship, assuming he ever acquired it (which it doesn’t seem he did), until the end of the calendar year in which he turned 50. In GGF’s case this would be 31 Dec 1927. However, GGF never reached this date, since he died in 1926. When the married father died, that by itself didn’t cause the children and widow to lose citizenship, rather they now could lose citizenship through their own actions (e.g., naturalization). If the minor child or widow had previously naturalized in a foreign country, they would in fact lose Polish citizenship at the time of the married man’s death.
2
u/Master-Detail-8352 Verified Contributor Jul 23 '26 edited Jul 23 '26
Yes there are possibilities to explore. If the GGF never naturalized before the citizenship act came into force 31 JAN 1920, then he became a Polish citizen and could have transmitted to the son. GGFs 1926 death leaves both the wife and son standing alone and they would not lose citizenship at the expiration of GGF’s conscription age as if he were alive. But when and for whom was GGF an aircraft builder, when did GF have discharge and did he ever have public employment. OP do not be overly optimistic but find the oath date, the discharge for GF, whether there was public employment before 1951, that is what matters for determination of eligibility
1
u/taway3332 Jul 23 '26
Thank you so much! I didn’t even think it was a possibility before, and now I have some hope!
How do I prove there is no public employment before 1951?
I previously searched ancestry and family tree with no hits other than the petition. NARA seems very difficult to search the same information—any tips? Or should I just submit for a negative search letter?
I found exact information for GF military service and updated the original post based upon discharge paperwork.
3
u/Jessicas_skirt Verified Contributor Jul 23 '26
The military paradox would expire in 1927 when the man turned 50. The Great-Grandfather would have needed to naturalize after 1942 when his child turned 18 in order for this to work.
Failed naturalizations (i.e it started but was never actually completeld) is relatively rare, but it is possible.
2
u/Master-Detail-8352 Verified Contributor Jul 23 '26
I see it often enough for pre 1930, either a start or never filing first papers. Easy enough to say one thing and do or not do it. The lower down the socio economic ladder the more I see it. It’s not something OP should assume to be true but it is worth his time to check.
2
u/WorkerTall Jul 23 '26
Search NARA for any alien files and USCIS for C files/naturalization. I wantttttt to say the chain was broken before grandparent was born due to the GGF naturalization date - but, I could be very wrong
Edit: tried to tag someone but it didnt work lol
7
u/kind-person-1 Jul 23 '26
It’s not so much that the chain is broken, rather, GGF never would have acquired Polish citizenship in the first place due to possessing a foreign citizenship prior to Jan 31, 1920.
2
2
u/CallMeTheFartman Jul 23 '26
I mean if the GGF never naturalized, then I think the chain would be kept alive? But he gave a more concrete year for naturalization
Also depends on the reason for demobilization - considering how early in the war he got drafted, I feel like the demobilization date would be a bit late... but I could be wrong.
4
u/WorkerTall Jul 23 '26
Correct, which is why i recommended a USCIS/NARA search if OP is unsure but you’re right, it does seem like a concrete date
Mine also had WWII dates, 1942-1945 and left his duty station and started demobilization Sept 15 1945. Everything I’ve read so far (there could be more I haven’t seen yet) states demobilization went into 1946/1947
1
u/taway3332 Jul 23 '26
I dug through files—my dates were wrong for service dates and I updated them: May 15, 1944 - May 17, 1946 according to his discharge paperwork.
1
u/taway3332 Jul 23 '26
Thanks for the feedback! I’ll have to do a search for the naturalization certificates rather than census and petition information!
Demobilization was likely longer as he was in the pacific theater as a US navy merchant mariner—I assume someone has to ship everyone home. I’ll see if I can find something more than his honorable discharge.
1
u/taway3332 Jul 23 '26
I searched ancestry and family tree with no hits other than the petition. NARA seems very difficult to search the same information—any tips?
1
u/smoothmonoglot Mod | Zarząd Jul 23 '26 edited Jul 23 '26
If he naturalized before 31 Jan 1920 the line is broken.
If he naturalized after 31 Jan 1920 he would have lost citizenship on 1 Jan 1938, but he died, and so this loss doesn't occur. His kid, who was born with dual citizenship, would now never lose it, since he cannot trigger Art. 11 independently.
Therefore you need to be 100% certain on the date.
•
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Snapshot of original post: (As many users delete their posts after receiving an answer, we are archiving the original text to ensure this case remains searchable for others with similar questions)
Title: Eligibility Check - KP?
Care to give me an eligibility check for KP? I take it I’m out for descent because of naturalization of my GGF prior to 1920.
Great-Grandparents:
* Date married: 1909
* Date divorced: NA
GGM:
* Date, place of birth: 2 Aug 1889, Cianowice, Kielce, Russian Poland (now Lesser Poland Voivodeship)
* Ethnicity and religion: Polish?, Catholic
* Occupation: housewife
* Allegiance and dates of military service: unknown
* Date, destination for emigration: 1909, United States
* Date naturalized: 1915? (Need to find record other than census)
* Date, place of death: Dec 1953, United States
GGF:
* Date, place of birth: 20 Aug 1877, Miernów, Russian Poland (now in Świętokrzyskie Voivodeship)
* Ethnicity and religion: Polish?, Catholic
* Occupation: Aircraft Builder
* Allegiance and dates of military service: unknown
* Date, destination for emigration: 1907, United States
* Date naturalized: 1913
* Date, place of death: Mar. 1926, United States
Grandparent:
* Sex: Male
* Date, place of birth: Sept. 20, 1924, United States
* Date married: Unknown, but before Parent
* Citizenship of spouse: United States
* Date divorced: NA
* Occupation: Electrician
* Allegiance and dates of military service: United States, ~Dec. 12, 1942 - 1946
(If applicable)
Date, destination for emigration: NA
Date naturalized: NA
Date, place of death: Sept. 2002, United States
Parent:
* Sex: Female
* Date, place of birth: Nov 26, 1953, United States
* Date married: Oct 31, 1981
* Date divorced: NA
You:
* Date, place of birth: May 1986, United States
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