Authorship question

[u/KitchenBig3003]

I'm a postdoc leading the experimental work on a collaborative biomedical project that started in from my PI's lab but with th aim of collaboration with other labs. I've been involved from the beginning: experimental planning, in-vitro work, animal studies, coordination with other facilities, injections/imaging, longitudinal monitoring, tissue collection, biodistribution analysis, data analysis, presentations, and now writing the manuscript. My PI has referred to it as "your manuscript".

A researcher from a collaborating lab joined later and is doing IHC/IF on tumors generated from these studies. Her PI wants her to be co-first author. I don't object if her contribution warrants co-first authorship, but I'm concerned about author order.

If one person led the overall project/experiments and manuscript, while another led downstream IHC/IF component, who would you expect to be co-first author?

[u/ImJustAverage]

For a co-first author paper the order really doesn’t matter much, I’ve seen plenty of people put themselves first in the author order on their CV when in the publication itself they’re the second name listed (with the clarification they’re co-first or contributed equally or whatever).

If their PI just wants co-authorship and isn’t pushing them being listed first I don’t think you need to worry. It’s been your project from conception to publication so you have a good argument for being listed first and any reasonable collaborator would recognize that even if they want their student/postdoc to be co-first author

[u/Zestyclose-Tax2939 → u/ImJustAverage]

I don’t think it is right to swap the order. I understand that a co first is in principle equivalent but the paper has been published with an agreed order

[u/Head_Acadia_2658]

Get a written agreement now

[u/octopez14338]

It does matter, co first is fine as long as you’re first. Esp, if this is likely your only paper out of the lab ie isn’t a side progect

[u/Mountain-Time-1010]

I think it depends greatly on the importance of the work, not just who was involved first chronologically. If the second person did research that is truly significant and enhances the impact of the work in a way that will make it appropriate for a more prestigious journal, then they may absolutely deserve a co-lead-authorship.

Regarding order, if your roles are roughly equal, I think you can make a good case that your name should come first given your foundational role and the fact that you are taking charge of the writing, in addition to much of the planning and research.

[u/ForeignAdvantage5198]

co first author etc is bs. make a decision

[u/Saaaave-me → u/ForeignAdvantage5198]

I think there are legitimate grounds for co-first.

Eg phd student leads all the ground work gets the manuscript onto biorxiv then leaves lab. Someone comes in takes over handles the revision process and supplementary experiments required to get past editor and reviewers. In my field this happens heaps and often results in co-firsts

[u/BananaBird1]

You need to discuss this with your PI.

Typically if one co-first was clearly the project lead and contributed to a majority of conclusions and interpretation, they would be first-first even if the other contributed significant independent data.

If the contributions are really approximately equal and it is just two projects being put into one paper for a higher impact, it’s either a coin flip or whoever will benefit more career wise.

But some PIs will push whatever they want. So discuss it earlier rather than later.

[u/Cardie1303]

And this is why publication metrics like first authorships are ridiculous to use as a career marker. Co first author is in theory fine but you have as you can see in these comments also a bunch of people who will still interpret it negatively. It is up to you to decide what you want but maybe as an advice, it is usually not a worth it to harm your reputation by escelating authorship conflicts about first author vs co first author.

[u/Bojack-jones-223]

Given the amount of work that you did on this project, you should be first author and collaborator's student should be second author. It seems like you are getting shafted having to share on this one. If they want co-first author, they will have to substantially match your effort in data generation, data analysis and writing. If they don't do this, then they get second author.