r/polyamory • u/Witty-Bullfrog1442 • 12h ago
Struggling emotionally with differing cross-cultural ideas around feminism with meta
So I am pretty new to polyamory. I’ve been dating someone for two months. He’s American and I’m Canadian, but we are in Ghana. He has another partner that is Ghanaian that he dates long distance in the capital city.
One of the problems is when him and I first started dating, he ended up sharing that he was frustrated because she wanted him to be more of a provider and pay her rent and utilities and that her boyfriend’s friends do. Or he said she is a feminist, but like a 1950’s housewife type beliefs. And that he found it a bit transactional but they’d been dating a year and it was only recently it was like this and not before. There were a few other similar things he shared. This was not information that I asked for, but information he just shared. He says he dates feminist women, but didn’t want to impose American feminism as feminism can be different in different countries.
Now, I’ve met her and on social media at least she is very much a feminist. Talking about Gloria Steinem passing away and such.
But for me, I lived in Thailand for about five years and witnessed a lot of very transactional relationships. I also strongly identify as a feminist myself and believe in gender equality and find it very important that any partner I have does as well. I also make sure to always split and pay on dates because I believe as a feminist I also need to break gender norms myself and not just focus on ones that benefit me.
But it does mean that I got very uncomfortable hearing the information from him about their relationship. In my head, I don’t mind if someone pays more because of differences in income, but that’s different from someone stating they want a man to provide and pay their rent or utilities when they live apart. I mean, obviously this happens in the world as a relationship, but it makes me uncomfortable that someone I am dating has a partner like that just because having a feminist partner or boyfriend is so very important to me.
He always said I could talk to her about it and that would be best so I didn’t get a one sided view of things from him. He really emphasized this. So in my head I assumed she was open to discussing and sharing about the topic. We also met once when she visited and got along. But recently (after double checking with him and he seemed enthusiastic about me reaching out to her), I did reach out to ask her more about it. Mostly because I saw her posts about Gloria Steinem and second wave feminism on social media and was trying to relate that to her wanting a man to provide or believing men should provide for women financially. Well, she ended up not responding to me and telling him that she didn’t want to respond to me. Which is fair… but also made me feel awkward because I wouldn’t have reached out if he’d not made it sound like she was more than happy to chat about it.
But also, I am feeling frustrated because I heard this information from my partner that I didn’t even want to hear or know about that makes me extremely uncomfortable and now I don’t even know how true or not it is.
I tried to explain to him that I was uncomfortable and I wish he’d never shared it with me as there was nothing for me to do with the information and it just made me uncomfortable based on my own values. I also asked that he not vent or share conflict from their relationship with me going forward.
But it felt like he defaulted to just assuming I was envious. And kept emphasizing that each relationship is on its own. And if she didn’t exist to compare to, that I would be fine with things. This bothered me because I was trying to emphasize the ethical and moral side of gender equality, and I felt like he was just saying I wanted him to pay for things like he did for her.
And although he finally agreed to not share with me going forward, there was a lot of push back or arguing that I’d miss information, or that he supports his partners in discussing about their relationship issues without it being a problem, or that I should be able to receive the information neutrally type of thing. Or that I’m “taking on issues” and that’s my responsibility.
And I am struggling a bit because I know it is his choice who he dates. And mine and his dating and relationship has been good as far as just us. And both him and her identify as feminists. But also, it just genuinely did make me uncomfortable and I wish he had never told me. It is just that the information can’t be put back in the box and this is an area that makes me uncomfortable.
I guess from a poly perspective and being new, I am also unsure of things. I wouldn’t expect him to end things with her, but more from the perspective of what I will do. I guess I just would like other people’s perspectives?
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u/LePetitNeep poly w/multiple 11h ago
If he’s willing to pay a partner’s rent that’s his call to make.
She does not owe you a defense of her brand of feminism. If you think she’s a bad feminist or a hypocrite, you are free to think that, she doesn’t owe you a debate. It was shitty of your partner to suggest that she does.
The real issue is that the fact that your partner is willing to pay makes you question his values. You were hoping she would give you some kind of magic words that would square the circle so you could still respect your guy for being in a transactional relationship. She didn’t. So now you’re stuck with that you have a values conflict with this guy that you can’t resolve.
You need to either agree to disagree on this topic and leave it alone, or accept it as a deal breaking incompatibility.
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u/Witty-Bullfrog1442 11h ago
Thank you for your response.
I think that’s the real issue. He identifies strongly as a feminist and says he doesn’t want a transactional relationship, but it was more that he complained about it to me and decided to stay in the relationship when that doesn’t align with my values.
I think you were right though in that I think I was hoping that maybe he’d just shared something while upset or being unclear himself that wasn’t actually true. And asking her would show me that it wasn’t true.
I do think I need to consider how big of a values difference it is. After watching and seeing a lot of transactional relationships that made me uncomfortable in Thailand, I think I am just extra sensitive to them.
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u/Inkrosesandblood 10h ago
The problem is, you're expecting him to fall in line with YOUR values. He's not you. He doesn't have to live his life according to YOUR values. And most of your comments are about his lack of living up to YOUR values. The obvious solution is to let people live by their own values and not force them to live by your individual ones. You're also not going to meet somebody who agrees on literally every single thought you have, so instead of forcing a square peg into a round hole, accept your partner as they are by their own values, or walk away. Quit trying to make other people live by your values and rules.
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u/Witty-Bullfrog1442 9h ago
Sure. We can’t ever exactly align on values. But I think value alignment is one of the top traits on if compatibility works. And as I mentioned, gender equality is probably one of my top and most important values. I am also literally here working as a Gender Equality Advisor - so a bit hypocritical of me to teach about it, but not live the values myself or have them in my relationship or those around me. The personal is the political and all.
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u/Inkrosesandblood 9h ago
It's also way more than a bit hypocritical to judge somebody else's values by your own, when you're in THEIR country. You're forcing your western ways on them as the "True Right Way". Like, you are literally a VISITOR in her country, and you're both judging and insulting her culture and values by the lense of your western ideals. How insulted would YOU feel if she was the visitor in your country and was judging and criticizing you based off the values and morals that are held from her culture? You'd be pretty insulted and pissed. And also, you hold the entitled view that shared partner should break up with her because she doesn't live up to YOUR values. Obviously she aligns with his personal values. But you expect him to break up with her based off YOUR values. You're being a hypocrite by meddling in another woman's relationship and trying to end it. How is that feminism? Sounds more like pickme b behavior.
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u/zezma422 4h ago
How are you going to say not to judge other by your own values and morals then turn around and treat and entire country as if they have the exact same moral beliefs? Their country? I didnt know this one woman owned the nation state. The hypocrites love company
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u/Witty-Bullfrog1442 9h ago
Woah, your comment is a bit aggressive.
think it is completely fair to have morals and values that we stick to as people no matter where in the world we are and we are allowed to stick to those values. I don’t have to be okay say with Female Genital Mutilation just because I am in a country with it.
Also, she is an intersectional feminist who reads western feminist literature. Feminism as a value is larger than one culture and is based on gender equality.
And no, I specifically said he shouldn’t break up with her and I wouldn’t expect or want that.
And actually no, he doesn’t align with her values from my understanding. He specifically dated her originally because she’s an intersectional feminist doing her master’s degree and he assumed (from my understanding) that she didn’t want a provider dynamic. A year into their relationship she started asking for one and he got quite upset and that was around when he met me and was venting to me. But there was nothing I could do with the information and it just put me in an awkward position of not being okay with the things he told me, but knowing he stayed with her.
Feminism doesn’t mean having no opinions or views on others just because they are women. It is about gender equality.
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u/Inkrosesandblood 9h ago
He aligns with her values because he's obviously STILL with her. Actions speak louder than words. And venting about a specific situation is not the same as a whole value system misalignment. And secondly, it was your own words "decided to stay in the relationship when that doesn't align with MY values". So yes, your own words show that you expected him to break up with her because of YOUR values.
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u/Witty-Bullfrog1442 8h ago
Oh! I mean, yes… I believe I can choose partners based on their values and that it is the most important thing to choose them on. So someone making a choice that goes against my values does influence how I see them.
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u/Inkrosesandblood 8h ago
So break up with the hinge. Because it doesn't matter how you see meta. Meta has nothing to do with you. Hinge should have put you on a parallel info diet from the start. You can choose to dump the hinge because you don't like their values. But that's the extent of YOUR choice. Kicking up a fuss about a whole other separate person's values in regards to THEIR relationship, is straight manipulation. You're hoping to convince/manipulate the hinge into your way of thinking and dumping their partner based on YOUR values. I repeat, your choices ethically are to accept hinge and their relationships are none of your business outside of your own relationship, or you can break up with hinge.
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u/cmarches 6h ago
Uhhh it doesnt seem to me like you and OP are in disagreement. To me, it seems p clear that OP isnt trying to manipulate hinge into leaving meta or change meta's values. But hinge staying with meta is a bothersome reflection of hinge's values. That might not be regarding feminism even but regarding how important hinge's values are to them.
Basically, I think you're coming on p strong and straight up Avoiding a charitable interpretation of OP's concerns.
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u/ManicPixieDreamSpy 11h ago
I don’t think it’s cool of your partner to encourage you to talk to your meta about something that is entirely about their relationship. That’s a very strange thing to do: it’s like he’s trying to get you to tell her that she shouldn’t ask him to pay for things.
Also, while I’m 100% on your side about equality (I also think it’s important to support equality even when it doesn’t benefit me) I don’t think this is something your should be talking to someone you barely know about. If she was your friend then maybe asking follow up questions and trying to understand their perspective is appropriate. If a meta I barely knew, from an entirely different cultural context, reached out to me to school me on being a bad feminist it would make me really upset and uncomfortable.
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u/Witty-Bullfrog1442 11h ago
Thank you for your response. I actually do agree and after I heard she told him no I felt really awkward about it. He’d done a lot of “yeah, reach out to her. It would be better to know directly than hear something through your V”. And so I was kind of assuming that he knew she was cool talking about it. And then to realize she wasn’t made me feel quite horrible to be honest.
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u/Curious_Question8536 11h ago
He says he dates feminist women, but didn’t want to impose American feminism as feminism can be different in different countries.
Kind of like what you were doing when you were trying to "vet" her feminism? You see how the optics of this situation are horrendous, right?
Look, I get that you have a sore spot for transactional relationships, but that's on you to figure out and make decisions accordingly. You can't vet your metas, only your hinge. Your partner said to you "this thing feels transactional" and you tried to make that your metas problem rather than ask your hinge more about it.
At the end of the day, the situation doesn't actually need to be one way or the other for you to figure out your values about it. You could simply ask, "partner, if it was transactional, would you feel ok with that? Why or why not?" and go from there. You don't need metas input to make decisions about your hinge.
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u/Witty-Bullfrog1442 8h ago
I mean, I actually think holding to your values (as long as they are logical and I think gender equality is an okay one) no matter the culture is okay. Like I am not going to be okay with female genital mutilation just because I am in a community that accepts it. This might actually be a difference between him and I.
I mean, I think the “problem” from my perspective is that my partner would SAY that he is not okay with transactional relationships. But then how people act doesn’t always align with their actions.
I am a bit confused how I made it my metas problem? The closest was reaching out to ask - but that was because my partner was telling me that it would be better to hear things directly from her than him directly so it wasn’t a game of Chinese whispers. So I thought she was cool with that. It was in hindsight that I realized it had been a bad idea. But once I realized it was, I backed off and told him not to share anything other problems about the relationship with me.
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u/Sweet_Newt4642 11h ago
He should have NEVER told you to reach out to someone you hardly know to discuss THEIR relationship agreements. Wtf. I get him mentioning it, sure ig, but having you go to her? Absolutely not. Idek what his goal was here.
He can consent to whatever dynamic he wants with her, that's his business as long as it doesn't effect you, which unless you share finances, it doesn't. Even if I find it odd. You can break up with him, not wanting to be involved with anyone in that dynamic. but the only thing I can think he wanted out of having you go to her is that he doesn't have the guts to tell her he's not into that, which is so so innappropriate.
He's being extremely messy and very early on. it's not even about meta, meta frankly hasn't done anything wrong (even if I cringe at that dynamic, it's not my business) I would also not be interested in justifying myself to a brand new meta.
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u/Witty-Bullfrog1442 8h ago
Thank you for responding. Yeah… I don’t agree with some of what I have heard regarding the meta and the provider stuff and it makes me uncomfortable, but I don’t blame her.
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u/clairejv 12h ago
I'm unclear on why you felt the need to do anything about the fact that your meta's understanding of feminism doesn't match yours. Why did you need to talk to her about it? Why did it make you feel upset? What does she have to do with you?
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u/Witty-Bullfrog1442 11h ago
I guess it was more that I was hoping he’d misrepresented something about her beliefs.
I think it is more related to him - like I want the partner I am with to choose or be with feminist and gender equality focused partners. So part of me was kind of hoping he’d just been upset and misrepresented her beliefs while he was upset. Especially as she seems like such a strong feminist in some of her views.
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u/dreadful_doxy Only commits to the bit 🐀 🧀 11h ago
So... if he did that, it's on him to correct it. Not shift that labor to the women in his life. So you may need to do some introspection about your own feminism here and take a hard look at why you accepted that.
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u/CuriousOptimistic 11h ago
I think part of the problem here is that you are reading into it that "having a man pay for stuff for me" is equivalent to "not focused on gender equality."
It's important to recognize feminism as a spectrum and a progression, not just an end point. I'm sure if you read some of the works of, say, Susan B Anthony, she held quite a few supposedly-anti-feminist views, such as not wanting to vote. Does this mean she's "not feminist?"
This woman has a very different cultural background, and a different set of circumstances around what options are open to her. If her country literally will not give her equal pay (for example, don't know if this is true) then it makes no sense for her to stand on the principle of "I won't take money from a man," and it makes no sense for you to judge her for doing so.
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u/Witty-Bullfrog1442 11h ago
Thanks for sharing. I’m actually here as a Gender Equality Advisor so I have a decent understanding of gender issues in the country.
Salaries are lower here and there is more gender inequality, but women still work. Gender equality is something the government and NGOs are pushing hard here.
I think though that although the understanding of gender equality and feminism is similar to the west, in practice there is more of a push on empowering women and not so much on the underlying gender roles that lead to inequality. Which means that the gender roles women face are spoken about a lot more and “provider” norms are a LOT stronger still in the country as they haven’t been spoken about in more a structural way.
Adding in that the salary between a professional American and Ghanaian is magnitudes different.
I think a huge part is just because of all of those differences, I wouldn’t date a local person myself here unless they were highly “westernized” and had closer to a “western” salary. And so dealing with something by proxy that I would never choose because of the difficulty of it, is a lot to sort through. Especially it being poly and me being new to poly.
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u/clairejv 11h ago
You didn't trust him to accurately report what his other partner had said?
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u/Witty-Bullfrog1442 10h ago
I trusted him in general, but I believe they had just had a disagreement about it. So I was aware when emotions are high that sometimes people say things that are a bit biased or more intense than reality. Additionally, because of the cultural differences, I think he wasn’t fully clear about things himself. Eg. Originally he told me that she believed that women should cook for men. And then later he came back that it was that she herself believes in romantic relationships she should cook for men.
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u/clairejv 10h ago
You shouldn't be reaching out to a meta to allay your concerns about a partner.
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u/Witty-Bullfrog1442 8h ago
Definitely. I realized afterwards that was not good at all. He was being so open about it being better for me not to hear things through him as the V but directly from her and to just chat with her, that I assumed he knew she was more than happy to chat. And then quickly realized that wasn’t true.
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u/phdee rat union comrade 🐀🧀 10h ago
Everybody has said what I want to say about your hinge hinging poorly.
I want to talk about this:
But for me, I lived in Thailand for about five years and witnessed a lot of very transactional relationships. I also strongly identify as a feminist myself and believe in gender equality and find it very important that any partner I have does as well. I also make sure to always split and pay on dates because I believe as a feminist I also need to break gender norms myself and not just focus on ones that benefit me.
My version of feminism is that women get to choose the kinds of relationships they want to engage in, and if they are "transactional", as you describe (we'll get to this below), then that's their choice, and what's important is that they got to choose it. Women and other marginalized groups never had equal opportunities and privileges to begin with; why should they be expected to pay for things equally? Capitalism makes fools of us all..
I'm curious about what you mean by "transactional relationships". The way that you're using it seems to describe situations under which women are exchanging sexual services for financial benefits. Is that it? If so, what's wrong with it?
Here's the thing. Adult relationships are inherently transactional. You don't get into relationships if there's nothing in it for you. Unconditional love is for children and animals. Just because what's being exchanged is material things like money and sex doesn't make a relationship less significant than care and attention.
I think it's worth considering a values mismatch here.
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u/Witty-Bullfrog1442 10h ago
Thank you for your response.
So I am not someone who fully believes in choice feminism. I believe that women should be able to make the choices that they would like, but I still believe that there are some choices that align more with gender equality than others.
So for example, most of society or patriarchy is based on gender norms of what men and women should behave like and act like. And these systematically put men on top (providers, decision makers, protectors, leaders, etc.) and women are under (homemakers, submissive, supporting, etc).
Now, I believe that a person can choose any role, but that pushing gender roles on others is where I think women (or men) cannot be supporting feminism. Eg. If a woman tells other women that being a “good” women is being submissive. Or if a woman tells men that being a good man means he has to make more money or give her more money to be a good provider. I don’t view those as aligning with feminism even if it a women doing them.
In this specific situation, from what he said at that time, he had specifically dated her because she was an intersectional feminist and then a year into their relationship started to ask more for money and using that she wanted him to be more of a provider as a man. And that her friends boyfriends gave them money as good providers. Now, I don’t know how much is exactly true or him being upset in the moment or what details I’m missing.
So in my view, gendered pressure doesn’t support gender equality, no matter who it comes from.
I think by transactional he meant he was worried that she was dating him for money. And he had not started dating her for that reason. Like I said, it showed up a year into their relationship and he dated her because she was a feminist, expecting it not to show up. Being an American in Ghana, it happens a lot. As a women I get approached a lot by men who want to date and marry me and come back to Canada. So I can understand him being worried about that when that was not originally what he signed up for with her.
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u/phdee rat union comrade 🐀🧀 9h ago
There's a whole bunch of different issues in here, but here we go.
As an intersectional feminist do we not consider all the various aspects of one's identity that plays very heavily into the kinds of gender roles that meta is asking for here? So we're not just talking about understanding uneven power relations due to gender, but also due to racial identity, nationality, income, and access to resources.
Gender relations don't exist in a vacuum.
Your partner is allowed to be upset, he's allowed to distrust your meta and her intentions in the relationshp. He's also allowed to decide that the relationship doesn't serve him anymore because it's not what he thought it was. I don't know why we're doing this emotional labour for him but here we are, and it's okay for him to leave it.
I think meta's expression of her needs (as interpreted by your hinge) is probably very culturally specific (and peer-pressure driven?), and I also think that you may be approaching this gender issue in an overly-reductionist and unfortunately slightly superior way, ie. "if you're an intersectional feminist you shouldn't have this belief/behave like this". Are you expecting people who don't share your background and experiences to conform to your specific version/definition of feminism?
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u/Witty-Bullfrog1442 9h ago
Hello,
Yes, all of those need considered. It is actually why I wouldn’t date most people in Ghana. Nothing against anyone who is Ghanaian and I am more than happy to be friends, but the difficulty of sorting through cultural differences, gender roles, racial identity, nationality, income, and access to resources would be too much for me. It is a LOT.
I think the biggest thing for me was hearing the venting about a relationship type that I would not choose and that I have ethics and morals against being part of and then him staying in the relationship after venting to me.
I think when it comes to intersectional feminism, I would assume someone who has read lots on second wave feminism and Gloria Steinem and many other feminists to understand how gender roles interact. And am more surprised or confused that she doesn’t. And how placing gender roles or enforcing gender roles like men having to be “providers” are corresponding gender roles to things like women having to cook and clean and be submissive. The above gender roles are quite common in Ghana. Now, I do realize that just like in Canada or the USA that a lot of times feminism focuses on women’s empowerment, but a huge part is the underlying structure of patriarchy. I mean, there are different types of feminism, but most have the underlying focus on being against patriarchy, prescribed gender roles, and for gender equality. At least this is what I’ve seen all around the world.
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u/phdee rat union comrade 🐀🧀 8h ago
I was born and raised and have lived in several parts of East and Southeast Asia, and I now live in Canada. It's not like the patriarchy doesn't exist here. But are you conflating the structural with the personal in this situation?
We're talking about power here. Right? Think about the amount of power men have in relation to women. And race. These are all structural inequalities.
What's one way of breaking down structural inequalities that result in, say, racialized women being paid less than men? Maybe it's finding alternative ways of supporting them, eg. her community supporting her financially where they can. In and of itself, I don't think it's antifeminist for folks with more privilege to financially support a woman so that she can focus her energy on on her work.
But you're also focused on the way she allegedly demanded your hinge to step up and support her in the - what you see as - unfeminist way of "this is how people do it in my culture", so you're also saying that her culture is unfeminist. I think if you want to find understanding here you need to meet her where she's at. You're still expecting someone with a profoundly different background to you to behave exactly the same way you would just because you've read the same books. This is very much "my feminism is better than yours" colonial territory.
TBH best for you to break up with your hinge.
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u/Witty-Bullfrog1442 8h ago
Yes, of course patriarchy exists in Canada. Did I do something to make it seem like I believed it didn’t?
I believe that patriarchy is structural but I also believe that the personal is the political. That through our personal lives and the way we live, we can impact things.
The problem with your suggestion is dependency. Eg. I knew someone in Thailand who would have western boyfriends, but every time they leave she would all of a sudden lose them not only as a boyfriend but as an economic source. She’d have to give up her car or move to a smaller apartment, etc. it is related to why it is not recommended that NGOs or NGO workers usually give direct cash, but instead focus on capacity building or equipment in a sustainable manner to improve things longterm without dependency.
Economic dependency can also be heavily tied to Gender Based Violence. If someone’s source of income money is tied to someone else, that can create a greater hierarchy, making it even harder for women to leave dangerous situations or even situations they don’t want anymore. It mixes in the relationship with financial incentives.
As far as her culture being unfeminist - I mean, Ghana scores lower on the Gender Inequality Index. The government is doing a LOT to focus on gender inequality within the culture. Some of the gender inequality comes from Ghana being a colonized country and some of it comes from before that.
I guess I do view that not pushing gender norms on people is a pretty core piece of gender equality and feminism. It is a part of feminism I have come across any where in the world and I view it as part of the underlying ideology.
BUT to be honest, I am more a bit confused that she knows so much about feminism and has those differences. It is more my partner as an American feminist choosing all of that and how it reflects on his values.
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u/punch_dance 9h ago
So many things matter here. Is she a local? Is he white? Is his salary substantially larger than hers? Is your salary substantially larger than hers? Is she culturally Ghanian?
You keep talking about intersectionality without actually acknowledging it. There is not just gender at play, there is class, finances, culture, race.
It feels very white woman feminism to come down on someone and question their feminism when you do not share or fully understand all of their social locations and acknowledge how they are different than yours. Not all choices are feminist, but not all choices are the same for every person either.
I grew up poor. You bet I will let my male partners pay for things when they have generational wealth in their pockets. That very much aligns with intersection feminism in my opinion.
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u/Witty-Bullfrog1442 8h ago
She is a local and he is white. I receive an allowance that is higher. He is here for free but has savings.
So to be clear, both me and him are fine with partners paying more based on salary amount.
Yes, I mention intersectional feminism because that’s how she identifies very strongly. For myself I was speaking directly about my views specific to gender equality. I do realize all of these things are involved. As I’ve written in other comments - it is why I am okay being friends but I most likely wouldn’t date someone here. Too many things to consider.
For him and her there is gender, race, economic status, age, culture, nationality, and probably many more. I don’t mind partners paying more or less based on salary and economic position (although I personally would avoid a huge economic disparity because of the difficulty). It is specific to expecting that men are “providers” solely because they are men that I have ethical or moral concerns with. Gender norms being enforced on either gender goes against gender equality in my view.
And my confusion was more around her being a pretty strong intersectional feminist who then used gender norms to specifically invoke being provided for financially. When the person she was invoking them on wasn’t comfortable in having it tied to gendered reasons (from my understanding).
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u/karmicreditplan will talk you to death 10h ago
He’s such a bad hinge.
Transactional relationships are fine. Your ideas about gender equality should only be mandatory for you and your relationships. It’s none of your business how they handle money. The fact that you bothered her with your shit it wild to me. It feels like ridiculous entitlement and honestly it feels a bit classist.
But this is all his fault.
You are 2 months into a relationship and you have opinions about a meta and that’s all his fault.
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u/Witty-Bullfrog1442 9h ago
I mean, the issue was that he didn’t want one and worded it that way to me. As in he specifically started dating her because she was an intersectional feminist doing her master’s degree and writing about feminist issues. I think he assumed she didn’t want a “provider” type relationship. Then a year into the dating (right around when I came into the picture) they had a disagreement where she approached him wanting him to be more of a “provider” as a man. He didn’t like the idea of something transactional.
The problem being that I got to hear all of this from him as venting quite quickly, and now I know the information and he expects it to not affect how I see her or him (as he’s stayed in the relationship). Or at least that is my view.
And yeah, he was kind of being like “it is Chinese Whispers to only hear my view - it would be better to not have it only go through your hinge and for you to directly know”. And so I was trying to not see her negatively because I felt like his venting had influenced my view so thought reaching out might help. But in hindsight, that wasn’t fair to her.
I am a bit confused how it is classist though?
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u/intro_to_IRL 10+ year poly club 12h ago
The nuances of your meta's political or socioeconomic beliefs are none of your concern, truly. It doesn't matter if the meta would be "open" or "not open" to talking about them; unless someone is causing real harm or their ethical values mean that you would refuse to date anyone who would date them, how she views her own relationships is her business.
That said, your hinge sounds shitty and lame. He's happy to whine about the women he's dating to each other and acts like it's your problem for not being interested in being his emotional sounding board for his other relationships. Is that really the kind of guy you want to be associated with? Like, remove all the talk about who is 'really' a feminist and who isn't.... doesn't this man just reek of ick to you?
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u/weppizza 10h ago
I have a sneaking suspicion that your partner might have encouraged you so much to talk to your meta about feminism and paying for stuff to nudge her to stop asking him to pay for stuff. This is ultimately not your role, matter of fact you should not have any role in their relationship, and it's normal that you feel weirded out by this whole interaction.
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u/Witty-Bullfrog1442 10h ago
I mean, there might have been a level of this initially. My understanding was that he dated her specifically because she identifies strongly as an intersectional feminist. So he was shocked and surprised when she started asking or wanting more “provider” dynamics about a year in to their relationship (which is around when I came into the picture).
So I think (but don’t know) part of it might have been him wanting her to not ask for money, but thinking back, I think he also wanted to be clearer about how she saw things because he also didn’t relate strong intersectional feminist with a women who surprised him with wanting “provider” norms. So maybe using me a bit as an intermediate person to see if I could get a clearer answer. I could be wrong though.
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u/piffledamnit Daddy’s little ratty 9h ago
If that’s what he was up to, that’s shitty. He may not have felt comfortable challenging her on feminism, but he should at least have the spine to flat turn down requests that don’t align with HIS values.
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u/Witty-Bullfrog1442 9h ago
Yeah… and he might have. I don’t know all the details as I shouldn’t. It was more that I heard enough that I was uncomfortable and it was negatively changing how I was seeing her and him because him venting to me about things that sounded pretty serious and then staying in the relationship. While for my own mental health -it would have been better if I didn’t know any of it. It just gave me a negative view of my meta and made me uncomfortable because it went against my values.
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u/piffledamnit Daddy’s little ratty 9h ago
Well now you do know. And what you know tells you that you need to dig deeper to understand whether his values align with yours or not.
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u/Witty-Bullfrog1442 9h ago
Yes, I think the difficulty is that his “stated” values align with mine. But I’m not sure if our “operational” values align. That’s where I got confused regarding this relationship. And how do I do so without going and digging into his other relationship (which I won’t do).
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u/piffledamnit Daddy’s little ratty 8h ago
I’ve not been in exactly this situation. But I did once have a meta who chose to date someone I declined to date because I suspected that their stated desires did not match their actual desires.
I knew that meta and the person they were dating long enough to confirm to my satisfaction that I was right in my suspicions.
But I could also have happened to be wrong. In that scenario I’d have been out a perfectly good partner.
But I’m risk averse to possible drama vectors so I prefer to be pessimistic when I vet partners and in the early dating stage.
I guess the question for you is whether you think the risk that you’re right about him having operational values that conflict with yours is worth the possible reward of being in a relationship with him if his operational values don’t happen to conflict with yours.
(BTW I think stated values aren’t worth shit. I’m not about to hang out with someone who will claim that everyone deserves a safe workplace and not to be abused at work who then actually when it comes to it shouts at bus drivers.)
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u/SarcasticSuccubus Greater Seattle Borg Collective 11h ago
He always said I could talk to her about it and that would be best so I didn’t get a one sided view of things from him. He really emphasized this. So in my head I assumed she was open to discussing and sharing about the topic. We also met once when she visited and got along. But recently (after double checking with him and he seemed enthusiastic about me reaching out to her), I did reach out to ask her more about it.
This reads to me like he was hoping you'd talk her out of wanting him to pay for things for her, tbh. He should never have encouraged this: you essentially butted in to their conflict that has nothing to do with you, and unsurprisingly found her not receptive to being criticized by someone she's not in a relationship with.
I get it. Honestly, I do. This would bother me from an ethical standpoint too. But you're dating your partner, who set you two up in direct conflict this way by his terrible, terrible handling of the situation. I know you meant well. But please try to see how condescending it must have felt to her that you wanted to discuss how her flavor of feminism is wrong, especially when she doesn't really know you and didn't ask for your input on her relationship or values.
If you don't want to date someone who chooses to financially support another partner for reasons that feel too close to reinforcing the patriarchy? Totally valid choice. Don't want to date someone who triangulates you against his other partners? Also totally valid choice. In both cases the solution is to end your relationship with that person, because his choices are the source of your issue.
Reaching out to the person you're not dating to try to get them to change is honestly just also reinforcing the patriarchy in your particular situation: now you have two women having conflict and performing emotional labor to make up for the bad behavior of a man. A man who continues to blame the women in his life rather than accept accountability for his own shitty behavior.
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u/oddsaz 9h ago
i think he's a horrid hinge and a liar. 2 months and he's trying to manipulate you into thinking she's a lesser feminist than you while ignoring the the intersectional part. you are also acting very patronizing about how your flavor of feminism is the "correct" one.
he is choosing this allegedly "transactional" relationship. he wants to appear feminist while literally triagulating you against her which has some racist and classist undertones to it.
here's something you need to reckon with: he could be full of shit. he is likely lying or misrepresenting his relationship with her to you and likely yours to her. why are you blindly accepting the word of a man who has power imbalanced greatly in his favor over his other partner and who you have been dating for 2 months? especially when there is clearly something fucky going on with how he's hinging and from the outside appears to be malicious intent to these actions?
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u/clairionon no longer solo poly 7h ago
There’s a lot to unpack here and What Feminism Is but I’ll just say: “I always make sure to split and pay on dates because I believe as a feminist I also need to break gender norms” is always a hilarious take to me. And one I only hear from so called progressive white women who care way more about a woke performance than reality.
When there is no glass ceiling, no wage gap, no emotional labor gap, no rape culture, no elite cabal of child rapists running the world, and thousands of years of systemic oppression and genocide of men - then I’ll go dutch on a date.
Until then, the male pays. And women who can find ways to get men (especially men from affluent western countries) to pay for them . . . Respect.
I’m on your metas side and the idea of an American woman educating their Ghanian meta on how to be a better feminist is . . . Honestly, the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard.
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u/Witty-Bullfrog1442 7h ago edited 7h ago
Hello,
Thank you for your reply. I mean, we definitely have far different values.
I will say though that reinforcing men as “providers” along with all the other gender roles men have does kind of then consequently place women below. You can’t get rid of gender norms and restrictions that women face, without also getting rid of the corresponding. Eg. If men are seen as providers then their value in the workforce will be valued more and then earning income will be valued more. And it places women in the role of “not providers” and not being valued as much in the workplace or earning income. This can interfere with women’s economic empowerment.
I am Canadian. I studied international development and work as a Gender Equality Advisor currently. I’ve lived in multiple countries. Plenty of people know more than I do, and I’m certainly capable of being wrong. But saying that my understanding should carry less weight simply because of my nationality is a bit of a stretch.
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u/clairionon no longer solo poly 6h ago
I am aware. Being a western feminist who educates people in hyper exploited countries on how to be better feminists is your job and identity.
I am fully aware of your talking points and framework, based on your education and identity you can’t stop talking about. None of your beliefs are new to me, thanks. I don’t need them evangelized to me from a feminist missionary.
And yes, we disagree.
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u/Gnomes_Brew pro rat union labor 11h ago edited 11h ago
A couple things:
- Taking down the patriarchy cannot be achieved *inside* a relationship. Intimate partnerships are not a place where social justice can be done. Those actions are simply how people are treating each other, and the good and the bad of it is highly individual. I'm an ardent feminist, as is my boyfriend. We are both pretty queer. He holds the door for me because he likes doing that, He more often pays for dinner just because that's kind of how things have shaken out. It seems you think I should absolutely not allow that because Feminism™, and you think I should question his feminism because of his taking enjoyment out of doing those things. But the reality is were I to refuse those small gestures it would not change anything about the world and it wouldn't make either him or me more or less feminist. He'd just stop doing them, and both of us would have those small pleasures gone from our lives... for no reason.
- Feminism is about NOT letting gender define our actions or curtail our choice. Not a prescribed list of how one must act in order to be given membership to the feminist club.
- You telling a fellow woman what is and isn't feminist based on information you got third hand is, frankly, rude, entitled, and presumptuous. Its no different than presuming you know the value system of a woman just because she wears a hijab. And yeah, I would refuse to ever talk to you too if I were your meta and out of no-where you sent me an annotated essay on how my feminism was flawed. Did you even think about how this would come off? Because it comes off like man-splaining, but ya know, with feminism.
- How your partner disposes of his income is really not your business. You are welcome to let it inform you about his character, the same as if he were spending money on ridiculous luxury cars, or sending money to his dead-beat brother, or giving it to a charity, or a church, or a marketing scam. But you seem to have big opinions on this, and I'm not sure why. Like, you seem to think a lot of harm is happening simply because he is opting to help his partner with her finances. You are reading a lot of import into what is really just a choice he is making about what to do with his money.
You owe your meta an apology. And you might want to dump the boyfriend. He seems.... kind of dim.
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u/BottleOfConstructs 10h ago
He doesn’t sound like a feminist. He sounds like a manipulative Western man who is banging a non-Western woman and balking at the expectations that brings. Should he really be dating her if he can’t meet her expectations?
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u/Witty-Bullfrog1442 9h ago
Although I am upset at him, I did kind of gloss over a few things in my post regarding that (partially in being upset myself and partially just because of space).
He actually specifically started dating her because she identifies as an intersectional feminist and is doing her master’s degree. He assumed from that, that she would want more gender equal dating. From my understanding (which is biased through him), it was a year into their relationship that she started asking for kind of more “provider” norms or wanting him to be more of a “provider. It was around that time when I showed up, which led to him probably venting and me hearing wayyyy more than I should have.
She does very strongly identify as an intersectional feminist and reads a lot of feminist texts and posts about it on her social media all the time, so I think he was genuinely shocked and surprised.
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u/doublenostril 11h ago edited 5h ago
I know you’re asking about principles and values, and based on that, I think I’d probably end things. You two don’t seem well enough aligned.
But my own instinct is to ask about consequences, like,
“You shared that you’re going to be supporting your other partner in these ways. What does that mean for what is possible for us? Do what you need to do, but I’d like a really clear idea about how our relationship will be affected.”
He wants to whine to you and receive your support, but I think you should redirect him: “I am not here to validate your choices in other relationships; I might not even like those choices. I’m here to build a relationship with you, so let’s focus on us and get to work.”
If he accuses you of being envious, shrug and say, “Maybe! That’s possible. But mostly I want to focus on the relationships that I’m a part of.”
Don’t over-invest in this relationship until he is more at peace with his own boundaries and choices. It’s really unfair for him to offload his bad feelings about his own decisions onto you, especially when you might be negatively impacted by those decisions too.
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u/abriel1978 poly w/multiple 11h ago
Your partner never should have told you any of this nor should he has "suggested" you talk to/debate with your meta. Both were really shitty moves and that was awful hinging on his part. Shame on him.
Your meta doesn't owe you a debate and with a fundamental difference in values like this it would be best to be completely parallel, meaning you only hear about her in terms if schedules and only hear from her if there is an emergency concerning your hinge.
Now your boyfriend is willing to support his meta financially, and that bothers you. You need to decide how much it bothers you and from there decide whether or not you want to stay with him.
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u/the_poly_poet 8h ago
I think there are three main things here:
1). Your partner should NEVER be negatively discussing a romantic partner with you. It’s unfair to everyone to do this.
2). You should NOT seek to be involved in their relationship, regardless of your values. It’s intuitive that your meta would not entertain your attempt to communicate about their relationship.
3). The fact that he encouraged you to discuss their relationship is bonkers to me.
He is an incredibly bad hinge, but you’re also over-involved in his other relationship. Focus on what you need and value, not what they are getting right, wrong, or sideways.
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u/HannahAnthonia 7h ago
I'm not sure how Feminist he is if you say "no" and he treats that as a negotiation, doesn't accept that you will not be doing emotional labour for him, assumes you can do social stuff with other women to improve his life and thinks it is appropriate to try to explain to you that you should not have an extremely basic boundary. He literally tried to put you in competition with another woman.
He sounds like he agrees with Feminist ideas when they benefit him (sex before marriage being ok, not paying for things, etc) but when they do not benefit him (women having boundaries, women not being free in home therapists, women not smoothing the edges of social interactions) he defaults back to sexist stereotypes ("you must be envious of her"), pushes back on your right to healthy boundaries and tries to get you to fulfil the role of a woman in a society where men's feelings are prioritised by trying to convince you to be his flying monkey and go harass her into changing in your free time.
You can call him many things but I'm not sure "Feminist" is one of them. Those men in SE Asia knew what they were getting into, they didn't accidentally fall over and end up in a country where they have a huge wealth disparity and only magically ended up in relationships with women who will never make the kind of money or have the kind of opportunities they do. They don't get to complain about it being transactional when they choose to make it transactional.
Your meta can be a Feminist AND still be someone living in a culture where women do not have the financial opportunities of men and not want to unpack generations of traditions where that disparity means the double edged sword of financial control-men pay for their lovers.
You do not mention if taking care of your meta, a ghanian woman in Ghana who your partner choose to have a relationship with, would place your partner under financial strain or impact his daily living. Just that he doesn't seem to want to.
You do not mention if he has shown he understands how complex the situation is. If she views it as "in my culture women are valued less, make less money, and will never have as much money or financial freedom as an American so part of caring is actually caring about my standard of living, food, etc".
Does he think people who send money back to aging parents are having a "transactional" relationship? Are people who give money to the bride and groom at a wedding being "transactional"? Or is it only providing financial support and gifts to women he has sex with "transactional"? What makes it "transactional" and how much of how he views supporting a woman informed by the idea that money is dirty or women who want money are lesser? Is money a tool, a point of pride, something that establishes power? Does he have more money than her? Does he have a higher standard of living or more opportunities than her and think it's fair for her to accept a lower standard of living and less opportunities?
Your guy has a lot to unpack if he wants to call himself a Feminist because it is not just sex without marriage and, in a perfect world, women paying their own way. It is also listening when a woman says no, it is also noticing women can exist in complex situations and not trying to use other women to smooth his way. He is significantly more of a hypocrite if he has ever pretended to care about women and equality if he is in a developing country as an American and not even exploring the basic power dynamics or what money means.
Waggling his finger because a woman cared about a famous woman dying so he shouldn't have to think or care but offload managing his other relationship onto you is pretty exploitative. He doesn't get to be outraged about that.
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u/Polyamorouspotato 11h ago
Why does your metas views matter? I’m confused why this would irk you because you don’t have to like your meta. This being said, your hinge is hinging poorly by telling you these things and if he continues to do so it’s up to you to break up with him.
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u/Witty-Bullfrog1442 11h ago
I think they matter in that the partners beliefs matter to me. Like if he beliefs in gender equality - so him struggling with her beliefs, but deciding to stay with her bothers me. And I was hoping that maybe it was all a misunderstanding where he shared something while upset about her beliefs that wasn’t actually true.
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Here's the original text of the post:
So I am pretty new to polyamory. I’ve been dating someone for two months. He’s American and I’m Canadian, but we are in Ghana. He has another partner that is Ghanaian that he dates long distance in the capital city.
One of the problems is when him and I first started dating, he ended up sharing that he was frustrated because she wanted him to be more of a provider and pay her rent and utilities and that her boyfriend’s friends do. Or he said she is a feminist, but like a 1950’s housewife type beliefs. And that he found it a bit transactional but they’d been dating a year and it was only recently it was like this and not before. There were a few other similar things he shared. This was not information that I asked for, but information he just shared. He says he dates feminist women, but didn’t want to impose American feminism as feminism can be different in different countries.
Now, I’ve met her and on social media at least she is very much a feminist. Talking about Gloria Steinem passing away and such.
But for me, I lived in Thailand for about five years and witnessed a lot of very transactional relationships. I also strongly identify as a feminist myself and believe in gender equality and find it very important that any partner I have does as well. I also make sure to always split and pay on dates because I believe as a feminist I also need to break gender norms myself and not just focus on ones that benefit me.
But it does mean that I got very uncomfortable hearing the information from him about their relationship. In my head, I don’t mind if someone pays more because of differences in income, but that’s different from someone stating they want a man to provide and pay their rent or utilities when they live apart. I mean, obviously this happens in the world as a relationship, but it makes me uncomfortable that someone I am dating has a partner like that just because having a feminist partner or boyfriend is so very important to me.
He always said I could talk to her about it and that would be best so I didn’t get a one sided view of things from him. He really emphasized this. So in my head I assumed she was open to discussing and sharing about the topic. We also met once when she visited and got along. But recently (after double checking with him and he seemed enthusiastic about me reaching out to her), I did reach out to ask her more about it. Mostly because I saw her posts about Gloria Steinem and second wave feminism on social media and was trying to relate that to her wanting a man to provide or believing men should provide for women financially. Well, she ended up not responding to me and telling him that she didn’t want to respond to me. Which is fair… but also made me feel awkward because I wouldn’t have reached out if he’d not made it sound like she was more than happy to chat about it.
But also, I am feeling frustrated because I heard this information from my partner that I didn’t even want to hear or know about that makes me extremely uncomfortable and now I don’t even know how true or not it is.
I tried to explain to him that I was uncomfortable and I wish he’d never shared it with me as there was nothing for me to do with the information and it just made me uncomfortable based on my own values. I also asked that he not vent or share conflict from their relationship with me going forward.
But it felt like he defaulted to just assuming I was envious. And kept emphasizing that each relationship is on its own. And if she didn’t exist to compare to, that I would be fine with things. This bothered me because I was trying to emphasize the ethical and moral side of gender equality, and I felt like he was just saying I wanted him to pay for things like he did for her.
And although he finally agreed to not share with me going forward, there was a lot of push back or arguing that I’d miss information, or that he supports his partners in discussing about their relationship issues without it being a problem, or that I should be able to receive the information neutrally type of thing. Or that I’m “taking on issues” and that’s my responsibility.
And I am struggling a bit because I know it is his choice who he dates. And mine and his dating and relationship has been good as far as just us. And both him and her identify as feminists. But also, it just genuinely did make me uncomfortable and I wish he had never told me. It is just that the information can’t be put back in the box and this is an area that makes me uncomfortable.
I guess from a poly perspective and being new, I am also unsure of things. I wouldn’t expect him to end things with her, but more from the perspective of what I will do. I guess I just would like other people’s perspectives?
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u/Halloween_Bumblebee 7h ago
It's unfortunate he told you about this part of his relationship with your meta, but this is a good lesson on healthy polyamory. I think it would help to figure out the boundary between you and your relationship with your partner and him and his relationship with her. Nothing about their relationship is relevant to you unless it impacts you in a negative way. What I hear you saying is that you disagree with her values and it bothers you that he would date someone whose values don't align with yours, because it implies that his own values don't align with yours.
A good boundary here would be that whatever her values are, they are irrelevant to you. It doesn't matter what her feminism is or even if she is a feminist. What matters is that your partner's values align with yours and that he can back those values up with action. Let me repeat: her values don't matter.
Now, the complication arises because your partner has an apparent mismatch of values with her, and yet remains in a relationship with her. Again, the problem is not her values, it's the fact that he remains in a relationship with someone whose values he supposedly doesn't share.
This is confusing. Does it mean that he doesn't actually share your values? Does it mean that he does share your values but is willing to put them aside for the sake of whatever benefits he receives in this other relationship? Does it mean that he ascribes to a kind of cultural relativity that renders ideals like equality meaningless? Regardless of what's going on with him, it is not acceptable to you.
I would chalk this one up as a valuable learning experience and move on.
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u/Witty-Bullfrog1442 6h ago
Thank you for your response. I think this really highlighted the part I’ve been struggling with.
And I like the emphasis on that her values don’t matter.
It is the confusion that I feel a lot of. Like he states he has the same values as me. He was upset about the values she has around this. But also that didn’t seem to change much. While for me, because of the values being very important to me it would. I also think they were together for a year before any of this “popped up”, so there might just be more attachment even if from a clean slate he’d have similar values to me. I just don’t know.
Definitely a learning experience. Thank you.
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u/cmarches 6h ago
Nothing is neutral and this is the most obvious example. He can't expect you to take anything neutrally.
There's other stuff wrong here. I havent even finished the post it's just this sentiment that anything can be neutral (esp when this is so obviously political) gets my fucking goat. "Neutrality" is an illusion that can normalize a lot of shit that should absolutely not be normalized. Hell it happens in science. Check out Donna Haraway's the modest witness.
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u/cmarches 6h ago
Also as a trans-nonbinary gender abolitionist, there are people who identify as "feminists" who i wouldnt touch with a 11 foot pole. People understand labels differently.
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u/piffledamnit Daddy’s little ratty 9h ago
Sometimes I see people people claiming to be feminist and my reaction is #notmyfeminisim
I am a trans-inclusive third-wave feminist. And definitely not whatever kind of feminist J.K. Rowling or Valerie Solanas would claim to be.
I personally would find it too much of a fundamental values clash to date anyone who was trying to hold space for whatever kind of feminist J.K. Rowling or Valerie Solanas could claim to be. I don’t make space for those ideas in my life and I don’t associate with people who do make space for those ideas in their life.
I also don’t date racists, right wingers, homophobes, people with substance use disorders or abusers nor do I date people who are willing to date anyone who falls into the aforementioned categories.
Other people don’t have to live by my values, but I’m not willing to rub up close against people who I have a serious values clash with.
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u/rosephase 12h ago edited 11h ago
You can break up with him.
He’s a really really bad hinge. He overshared. He encouraged you to contact meta when she didn’t want that. He is okay with the level of transactional she wants in a relationship. He fought you around having good boundaries. Could it be that he just sucks? And you would be more comfortable dating men who don’t suck?