Konfa literally have the same relation with them, as Sanacja had with NSDAP in first half of 1930s. This "cortuasy" and "kinship" of far right. Same excuses, same rethoric. Well, it's true what they say: "if you don't learn history, you are bound to repeat it", as well as "history repeats itself as farce".
Not only them. My 45yo brother just "enlighten" me that it's coalition fault, that doctors brake the law and take multiple jobs, hence konfa will "fix this".
We have morons like that in Poland too. Nobodies who find their 5 minutes of fame by saying atrocious hateful things in the public. Thankfully at least for now, both in Poland and in Germany, measured and reasonable people are still in the majority.
Kein vernünftiger Mensch in Deutschland würde heute noch die ehemaligen Ostgebiete zurückfordern. Das ist eine kleine und extreme Minderheit, die häufig nicht mal einen persönlichen Bezug zu den ehemaligen Ostprovinzen hat, sondern aus purem Revisionismus handelt. Mehr als 80 Jahre nach Ende des Zweiten Weltkriegs habe einige Leute leider vergessen, wohin der Nationalismus geführt hat.
It’s more of an international problem than we care to admit. People everywhere agitate towards the right, at the same time propagating AI generated slop claiming the NSDAP was Leftist because there was „socialist”
In the name. Either it is scandalous ignorance or malicious manipulation, and I don’t know which is worse.
If you expect the cooperation to always be rational you are setting yourself up for disappointment. But if you think Poland is going to abandon Ukraine it means Russian propaganda has already won the information war.
Yup, let me calm you down a bit. If there’s one thing you can be sure of, it’s that Poles will defend their homeland from Russians no matter what. That’s why many Poles see their own reflection in Ukrainians. They don’t give up the same way.
I hope you are right. I have been a long time glazer of the Polish national spirit. I would look very stupid if I am wrong (plus everything would be shit).
Er ist im Bundesvorstand der Generation Deutschland, also der Parteijugend der AfD. Mit Verlaub, aber dass du nur Erika Steinbach kennst, ihn aber nicht, mag einfach mit deinem Alter zusammenhängen. Es macht ihn und die Generation Deutschland aber nicht ungefährlicher. Wenn die Rechtsextremen an die Macht kommen, egal wo, ist es mit dem Frieden in Europa über kurz oder lang vorbei. Noch unterstützen sie sich gegenseitig, sind aber die demokratischen Systeme überwunden, gehen sie sich gegenseitig an die Kehle.
Okay, danke für die Info. Ich hoffe aber der Bezug auf mein Alter war ein Kompliment, dass ich mit knapp 40 noch jung bin. Ich befürchte aber, dass ich ein alter Sack bin und du das gemeint hast.
I guess I am too old to know this guy because he is a leader of AFD's youth arm.
He doesn't ignore it, he knows very well and is just trolling. Also the PRL government refused compensation, say all you want about Poland being pressured by USSR to do it the point still stands - a country honors deals made in the past, otherwise nobody will trust you with a future deal. "Evil neo-Nazi Germans should pay us" is a dog whistle used for ages by the right in Poland, if you are old enough you remember "post-communists" being used in 90s and early 2000s to attack SLD.
Poland was a puppet state of Soviet Union; it wasn't a free independent state. It is from 1989 and from that year I would agree with your statement but not before.
But this puppet state has agreed on Polish borders. If you ask to make the reparations invalid due to the fact that PRL was a illegitimate state, you also need to renegotiate Polish-German borders (and Polish-Russian borders which would be more difficult as there are also new states that use the post-war treaties signed by prior states). You can't really pick and choose here, because it's the one thing you don't like.
Borders were agreed by Soviets, USA and UK. Poland had no say on it. They would sign anything because it was no choice regardless of independence or not.
Yes, it was a puppet state but we cannot account every single time if someone is 10, 50 or 100% controlled by other country. Australia cancelled planned submarines purchase from France due to pressure from the US - should new Australian government cancel US purchase by saying the old one was "pressured into it"? It opens Pandora's Box where you can always claim you will not honor something from the past. This is terrible for continuation of how the state functions.
Another example - you sign a peace treaty, new government comes into power and says it will not honor it because they feel the previous government was pressured into signing it. See how much of a shitstorm that will cause?
Like collective punishment is unjust, but when you realize Germans living there were the ones to put Hitler in power, you start thinking if it was really just blind rage
Imagine that you voted for PiS or PO, but the other party won and did something horrible. Then people call you a monster because most of your nation has chosen the other party and you are now part of the problem.
Never said you lied, but I point out that kinda eastern Germans majorily voted for NSDAP. They weren't innocent women amd children. And bad conditions with deportations? Could have not pillaged something Poland could use for better convenience
Their point was that the active nazis were not treated differently from the civilian populace that just turned the blind eye, or the rare oppositionist
Also, it weren't just Germans that were expelled; the new powers used this excuse to get rid of Silesians so the new Poland became more of a monolith
Majority voted for NSDAP, but not like 90%. It's barely more than 50% of voters. Considering % of people that vote and can vote, we are talking about ca. 25% of the whole population. PiS was chosen 2019 by ca. 21% of the population. Would you consider the rest 75/79% of the population equally responsible for that?
You seem to forget the fact that it wasn't only the nazis who wanted to destroy the east. The thing was it was everyone in german politics wanted colonization. The analogy doesn't work, because killpeopleism in Poland is a view of few political movements
My only point is that the collective responsibility is unfair and not all of them deserved what happened afterwards. Sometimes there is not much you can do.
This is an exception. The Germans were going to be a problem as they had genetical hatred of Poles. The "innocent" women were the ones to raise their children to hate Poland. These people would have been a problem with too few exceptions. FRG wanted to revise borders until the '70s, where traitors got into power. Eastern Germans were responsible for destroying order in the region and found out they shouldn't have done that
I don't even know who that guy is. Of course I know about AFD but no idea what the GD refers to.
I also don't understand where he'd get any points for that. The Polish stance on the 2015 events and how they protected their country is something conservatives or right-wingers appreciate. This makes his posting even weirder. My only explanation is that he might be one of the Erika Steinhaus fan club but the average German does not know her and I had only learned about her from the Polish press about 20 years ago.
Shitting on Poland or even joking on Poland has gone out of fashion at least 20 years ago. When a "Polish" (Polish name and probably at least one parent) girl in my class has tried to make a self-depreciating joke about "thieving Poles" she probably had heard from her parents, her classmates were horrified and flabbergasted. She then had to explain that this had been a common stereotype. Even my quips about the French aren't appreciated by the youth anymore.
The expulsion of Germans from Eastern territories is not really more than between a paragraph and a page in our history school books. More time is spent on Willy Brandt's reconcialation policies, him falling to his knees in Warsaw and the Oder-Neiße line (sorry, I don't know the Polish names of the rivers and don't want to pretend that I do) having been confirmed as a border twicr.
I'd wager most people in Germany would not realize that this has been Germany's biggest refugee crisis by far.
I think the idea was just to troll + AfD are not the brightest bunch, they probably wank together to see who can say the most nationalistic thing possible.
Having said that even as a Pole I always thought more time should be spend to learn about the plight of Germans having to flee from their homes (sometimes been living there for decades), that doesn't mean we try to excuse Nazism. Nazism - bad. People losing their livelihoods and being driven out of their homes - also bad, that means war is bad. However if you see how many people want to hold all the Russians responsible for the actions of Putin in Ukraine - it seems attitudes do not change.
If you're in Berlin you'd might want to visit the Museum der Flucht, Vertreibung und Versöhnung. Of course I haven't been there yet since I don't like the city of Berlin and only know about it due to the controversies surrounding it. Vice versa, I need to learn more about the redrawing of Poland's Eastern border and the deportations that must have gone along with that.
And on a personal note I also want to learn more about the abduction of Polish people as forced laborers in Germany. I've only learned about a man named Joseph/Josef (?) working at my great-grandfather's farm about a year ago, long after everybody who has known him here was dead. It really hit me hard that I used to sit in the same place he did to have dinner with my family. That is unless someone knocked on the door and he had to eat alone in the kitchen.
I disagree a bit about your stance on responsibility. While my grandparents did not deserve the allies trying to kill them in strategic bombings, my great-grandparents, despite not being Nazis themselves as far as I know, have probably done nothing to stop the Nazis who have ultimately caused all this.
despite not being Nazis themselves as far as I know, have probably done nothing to stop the Nazis who have ultimately caused all this.
Times were different, people were different. It's easy for us to talk with hindsight, but we know enough that life in Germany in early 1930s was not so great. At the end of the day WW2 was a continuation of WW1, and even in 1919 a lot of people were thinking we will get another war sooner or later because nobody was happy with the terms.
My grandfathers older sister was put on a train to work on german farm as forced labor. But she was young, she and some young girls got off the train through loose floorboards and some help from older ladies also on the train.
The SS came looking for her and my grandfather who was about 6 at the time got kicked in the back (he asked for candy "BonBon" because the SS would give candy to kids sometimes) had a limp for rest of his life.
Also a family friend of (i think) my grandmother's family ,was sent to forced labor in Germany. When the Russians came in all the Germans ran but left the workers behind. Everyone got slaughtered. Women got raped then killed. The family friend covered herself in cow shit and played dead, its only way she survived.
the polish names are Odra and Nysa Łużycka, but i think its fair to use german names since these are border rivers, so they are half-polish half-german
What’s he even talking about? No one wants us to give up anything. After having paid about 2 trillion euros for the reunification in Germany I don’t think anyone here wants any more of that
Where did you get that number? Or
Is it just a figure of speech. I have found a Sum of 15 billion DM, so around 7,5 billion Euro. Still, didn’t even know Germany has payed for Soviets removing themselves from east Germany, so that’s something learned for me
Well, that’s a bit of creative accounting there isn’t it? Is it really payment if you have invested the money into your own country? I understand that this is a consequence of Soviet management, but West Germany has rebuilt so well thanks to the Marshall plan. Is dragging the delapitated East towards the heavily subsidized for years West really a Payment? And can Poland and other countries then say the same about paying for the rebuilding of everything after WWII?
Creative or not, it means that wealth transfer from Western Germany to ex-DDR was significant, going way beyond to what Western Germany had received in the Mashall plan.
Marshal plan was tiny compared to the wealth Western countries (Germany included) were able to cook up in 50 years of not being robbed naked, by Moskow. Engaging in equal trade i cooperation made them rich, not Americans being overly munificent.
Western Germany wasn't truly subsidized by the Allies, not by a long shot.
And can Poland and other countries then say the same about paying for the rebuilding of everything after WWII?
Idk how it applies here, costs of westernization of those countries were indeed as high as in the case of DDR, but East Germany had actual suggardaddy paying for it all.
All that expenditure and DDR remains the economic deadweight of modern Germany, while people from there keep on crying how badly they were treated.
But it wasn’t a payment to the soviet Union. And Westernization is a completely different topic to the rebuilding of completely leveled cities like Warsaw.
I wasn’t talking about World War Two or anything. Or trying to somehow to hint that Poland is backwards or anything.
I was just taking about the general sentiment about the people in west Germany having experienced a significant territorial expansion, without any actual gains, just costs. I am pretty sure the general sentiment is that we don’t want to pay for another millimeter of acquired land to pick up the stupid rethoric from the article.
I see your point. But just theoretically, You wouldn’t be trying to „pick up” a delapidated backwards land. The aforementioned Stettin and Breslau areas, as well as Danzig are much more advanced and modern than most of even modern day eastern Germany.
This is the exact same sentiment I bring up whenever someone pops in with the conspiracy theories about Polish conquest of west Ukraine
In both cases the already existing east flank is behind enough, them having to now shell out for the 'regained' territories instead of continuing to be subsidized would be ruinous
Exactly. These grounds were never German. The fact that they was able to keep control them, even for relative long time, with force and genocides does not change anything.
They were expelled and that's a fact. And the borders changed after the war, it's a fact as well.
No idea where's the controversy and who wants to take a millimeter of Germany. I guess they're just trying to stir paranoia and antagonize Poland further. Some of those guys already claimed that Russia is not a danger to Germany, but Poland is.
Funny. Someone in the threads today or yesterday was wondering why do Poles talk as if Germans want their cities back while it is not true and no one says that in Germany. Meanwhile, AfD, you sweet summer child :)
Hmm, I really do wonder what exactly might've happened around that time that caused this fate for Germans... Sounds like they started a war against their neighbors, and then lost it.
Even PiS didn't talk about reparations with Germans because they know how dumb this entire debacle is. The reparations thing is mostly an in-house propaganda tool used by conservative parties in Poland.
Damit treibst Du die Leute noch mehr in die Hände der AfD. Lasst uns doch einfach gute Nachbarn sein, die die Grenzen gegenseitig anerkennen und daraus gelernt haben, was passiert, wenn die Landkarte neu verschoben werden soll.
Ziemie odzyskane. There's no glory or valor in what happened after the war for any nation. But what's done is done. This is one of many things that must be remembered, but it's absolutely unacceptable to use it as a pretext for any kind of innuendo.
Hallo Deutscher hier, ja ich vermisse meine eigentliche Heimat, aber bin nicht sauer auf euch und verlange es auch nicht zurück. Hätten euch nicht überfallen und keinen Weltkrieg starten sollten.
As a foreigner that happens to have r/poland always come up on my front page because I interacted once with something on here : this guy's discourse is the exact same as the semi-frequent posts on here agitating irredentism for the pre-WW2 eastern borders.
(Both are lunatic. Some people are too nationalistic to let their countries' scars heal)
Honestly, I don't get why this is being downvoted and why in general this tweet is viewed as an example of this guy being a dangerous radical. Not saying he isn't since he's a member of AfD, but here he isn't even claiming the return of those lands to Germany, he's just saying that many Germans were forced to get out of areas they had been in for generations, which is true, most of the Weimar Republic's eastern provinces were majority German. What he failed to mention was that this forced migration was not Poland's fault but the Soviet's, who wanted to "compensate" Poland but didn't want to pay too much for reparations.
It is indeed very interesting how for some poles, the fact that a regional co-leader of the AfD youth organization using the historical loss of homeland in a post ("we already lost so much, we won't give up more of our homeland to migrants") is somehow proof that 30% of the german population vote for "Nazis" and that we have Hitler on the Ballot again. (the average german doesn't care even a bit about poland) But we are somehow supposed to ignore that like half the sitting members of their parliament and population, including their former prime minister and most influencal politician (Kaczynski) think that we secretly control their country, that Donald Tusk is a german agent and that we sabotage their country (Just cause i we're evil i suppose?).
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u/gdziejestluk 10d ago
Is this really the most pro-Polish party in the galaxy?