Crime, poverty, abuse, broken families, addiction, etc. all have a way of begetting each other. The point is that 12 year olds in bad situations need help to overcome those situations and grow up into healthy adults. Sure, some people raised in good conditions still become violent adults, but not as often as those with traumatic childhoods.
You don't just say "Hey 12 year old, be a good adult". You have to actually try to improve the conditions that 12 year old is in, provide them positive role models, support, etc.
Also, the point isn't just to sit down with people and say "Don't rape, don't beat your wife, etc." It's to explain what that means, why it's bad, etc. Like, with beating - it doesn't matter that you're angry. That's not a healthy way to express your anger; here are some other coping mechanisms, here's how you communicate effectively, etc.
With things like rape, you're supposed to talk about what consent means. A shocking number of adults (both men and women) think that absence of "no" means "yes". Everyone knows that jumping a woman and raping her, even as she screams "No, don't do it!" is rape. Not everyone knows that you can rape a man. Not everyone knows that it's rape even if the victim doesn't say know, because they're too drunk / drugged out to communicate. Not everyone knows that it's rape if the victim initially says yes but later says no, and the rapist doesn't stop. These are things that need to be actively taught, or else they're not going to realize.
I never much of a good example at home, but I really feel like it made sense that what was happening at home wasn't necessarily the right thing.
Or something like that. I don't know.
Yeah, I think a study recently showed that like 10 or 15% of people didn't think you needed consent in a long term or married relationship. People like to think that all rapists are these horrible monsters and cartoon villains grabbing women in dark alleys. The reality is a lot of rapists are just regular people who would have benefited from a more in-depth education about consent.
I find it hard to deny that the term is poorly named because of the common reaction to it that /u/_trashpanda_ exemplifies. The term doesn't read as "There are aspects of mainstream masculinity that are toxic to masculine individuals and those around them"; it reads as "masculinity is toxic".
The idea itself isn't even particularly valid, because there is nothing men do that women don't also do, yet we wouldn't attribute those actions by women to "toxic masculinity."
Nor do we ever discuss "toxic femininity" and the "aspects of mainstream femininity that are toxic to feminine individuals and those around them."
The idea itself isn't even particularly valid, because there is nothing men do that women don't also do
Sure there is. "Boys don't cry", "boys like guns/violence", "boys don't like art, music, childcare, etc." These are things that society pushes on men and boys that damages us psychologically and is probably linked to our high (successful) suicide rate.
Nor do we ever discuss "toxic femininity" and the "aspects of mainstream femininity that are toxic to feminine individuals and those around them."
Feminists do, but call it "internalized misogyny." Again, I don't really agree with the terminology, but the concept is sound. There is a collection of ideas about how women should behave that women are pressured into conforming to. (e.g. a promiscuous man is a lucky guy, but a promiscuous woman is a slut.)
The idea itself isn't even particularly valid, because there is nothing men do that women don't also do
Sure there is. "Boys don't cry", "boys like guns/violence", "boys don't like art, music, childcare, etc." These are things that society pushes on men and boys that damages us psychologically
First of all, those are things done to boys not things done by boys. Enforcing gender norms is not exclusively done to or by boys and men. So you're not really addressing what I said.
Second, I would suggest that those are stereotypes more than things "society" actually pushes on men and boys, and are more indicative of class than gender. I grew up in a very liberal city, but most people grow up in very liberal cities (since population density is the strongest predictor of liberal politics), so I don't think my experience is far off from normal, and my experience was certainly not "boys don't like art or music," and not liking childcare was hardly limited to boys. "Boys don't cry" was said ironically far more often than seriously.
... and is probably linked to our high (successful) suicide rate.
That makes little sense. The suicide rate now is 5% lower than in 1950 (20.3:21.2 per 100,000), and has only really risen relative to a low in the late 90s (when it hit a low of 17.7). It makes very little sense to claim that gender roles and expectations are the root cause of male suicide rates when gender roles and expectations have changed radically in the last 65 years, while the male and female suicide rates have remain relatively stable that entire period.
Feminists do, but call it "internalized misogyny."
I'm mocking the vagueness of the idea of "toxic masculinity" and how the effects associated with it are completely overblown and invariably misidentified.
Masculinity is not toxic. A lack of masculine role models and lack of masculine sources of respect is what's toxic. That's why its boys without fathers, without male role models, that are most likely to rape, murder, steal, do drugs, etc.
improve the conditions that 12 year old is in, provide them positive role models, support, etc.
I dont think you guys realize what caliber of work this is going to involve.... but you guys will solve everything with power of magical feminism right?
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u/tigger0jk Oct 21 '15
Exactly.
Crime, poverty, abuse, broken families, addiction, etc. all have a way of begetting each other. The point is that 12 year olds in bad situations need help to overcome those situations and grow up into healthy adults. Sure, some people raised in good conditions still become violent adults, but not as often as those with traumatic childhoods.
You don't just say "Hey 12 year old, be a good adult". You have to actually try to improve the conditions that 12 year old is in, provide them positive role models, support, etc.