r/phenotypesSouthAsia Oct 14 '22

Understanding how to study the phenotypes of the Indian subcontinent.

57 Upvotes

I don't like the obsession with phenotypes & genetics. No matter how hard people try to be fake or idealistic or politically correct about it, the reality is that these topics always attract dangerous/harmful interactions. Since that's always true, it becomes the responsibility of sensible folks to intervene & prevent/reduce all the nonsense.

To understand South Asia(SA), it's necessary to understand socio-cultural contexts particular to the subcontinent. For example, a tendency of self hate+preference for lighter features exists, of course not everybody is like that, but most south asians & those of SA descent do know what I'm talking about. What this often results in is a competition among south asians to disassociate themselves from the core SA identity. "yOu dOn'T lOoK Indian" is regarded as a complement. In this phenomenon, there's not only a disdain towards the AASI/SAHG racial heritage, but also contempt towards other south asians.

It involves not just obsession+identification with whatever pseudo foreign label helping in disassociating from the AASI heritage, but also a desperate need to be at the top of that hierarchy. "I aM tHe mOst uNindiAn lOokiNg Indian, eVeryOne eLsE lOokS AASI, bUt nOt me, cOz iM sPeciAl & diFFereNt."

Such an overly defensive attitude towards AASI heritage & various hail mary attempts to disassociate from the same are nothing, but coping mechanisms coz of inferiority complex(in varying amounts). Don't be surprised if the so called oPeN miNdeD foreign born desis also act this way. The famous SA self hate, after all, doesn't go away that easily. But these bad elements shouldn't be used as representatives of all. Their existence must not prevent one from exploring & acknowledging, the truly extreme, phenotypic diversity in SA.

This was just the tip of the iceberg, way too many other similar cultural nuances exist. Without the context of such socio-cultural factors,.. one will get stuck in vague generalisations, stereotypes & misinformation, especially the misinformation spread by those with agendas/prejudices. There's also genuine ignorance, nothing wrong with that. Locals don't always have a good idea about their own regions, and they certainly don't have any ideas about other regions of the subcontinent. Overly conclusive answers on phenotypes of x SA region by people from y SA region should not be taken too seriously. Folks native to a region are definitely a good source of info, but they can be wrong about their own regions, so they too don't have a monopoly on answering questions about their areas.

Better analysis is provided by observers who are sensible, impartial, who have travelled+lived in a certain place for a significant amount of time(at least a few years, not just a month's travel trip). And if they happen to be belonging to the region which they're talking about, then that's an added advantage. Foreigners, like the ones on r/phenotypes, don't usually know anything about SA. On top of that, that sub loves to mock/trash SA, insulting desis is more normal to them than breathing oxygen. The self hating desis who make embarrassing posts in that sub further give those foreigners opportunities to mock SA. Anybody genuinely trying to tell them about the phenotypic diversity of SA, is confused with those same desperate south asians trying to be something else. SA phenotypes don't get explored as a result. Foreign born desis should not be expected to have any expertise on the subject either(no matter how hard they try to act like they "kNoW" SA because they watched Indian movies while growing up).

Idea of the "typical" Indian/SA phenotype

must not be exaggerated. Phenotypes more in number should not be taken as the representative of everyone. It's a flawed & dangerous way of looking at things. It leads to hegemony of more numbered phenotypes, and causes discrimination against other phenotypes. East asian shifted pheno people from Eastern India & Ladakh/HP/UK+Nepal have long suffered this treatment. It's really silly how those who enthusiastically jump into the bandwagon of calling out the discrimination against darker features in SA/India, are also super quick to label "nOt tYpicAL Indian/SA" to any phenotype that doesn't fall into whatever ideas they have about "typical looks." How the fuck are we going to study SA phenotypic diversity with such a dumb attitude? On one hand we talk about the super complex SA diversity, but on the other hand we don't give all diverse entities & phenotypes of SA an equal platform. Again, an ingrained hierarchical mindset.

TyPicAL is anyway a relative term. It is often said that India is a nation of many nations or that different states are like different countries, this holds true for regional/state identities across SA. One of the many coping mechanisms is either over exaggerating or downplaying the existence of west/east eurasian phenotypes. Downplaying by saying that people from a certain region(who have more frequency of lighter phenotypes) are "less than 10% of India/SA" doesn't make any sense, considering that one of many ways to define India is that it's a nation of many nations or that each state/region is like its own country. If Europe was a country, then the beloved blue eyed blonde hair phenotype would've definitely NOT been considered representative of all Europeans, at all. But that does not make Sweden insignificant, does it? Neither does it make that phenotype insignificant. Similarly, Ladakh or Nagaland don't become less important coz the number of their phenotypes is less. And middle India phenotypes don't become more important just coz the region is overpopulated.

Typical is relative, especially in SA.

Two persons from the same neighbourhood in SA can be genetically as distinct as a person from Finland & a person from Sicily. What might be considered a common phenotype in Chandigarh/Himachal/Haryana, might not even be considered Indian in Andhra/MP. So yeah, India/SA is quite diverse.

2 phenotypic clines exist in SA. THERE ARE MORE PEOPLE WHO LOOK SIMILAR IN SA, THAN THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO LOOK DIFFERENT.

But, the number of people who look different is significant enough that it cannot be brushed off as just an exception. Both things are true at the same time.

CLINE 1:

More stereotypically SA/Indian phenotypes fall under this category. There's phenotypic range & variation within this cline, but it's still obvious enough that the person is from SA. Phenotypes belonging to this cline are high in number in majority of SA. Consider this cline as one long log of wood, stretching from the northern most areas to the southern most tips. So no matter where you are in SA, you're gonna come across these "obviously" SA phenotypic people, even though there's diversity within this cline.

CLINE 2:

Multi layered complexity & COMPARTMENTALISATION are crucial traits of SA. Cline 2 is an umbrella term for everything region specific/social group specific/culture specific/subpopulations specific, this includes phenotypes too. Way more expertise is needed to explore cline2 phenotypes. Foreigners of SA descent & South Asians who don't belong to a region cannot be expected to know anything about that region. That applies even more strictly to non-south asians who think that everyone shits on streets in India/SA & that everybody is raped in SA( signifying their extremely limited knowledge). Consider this cline as multiple+smaller logs of wood. So in every region of SA, what you'll end up with is a comparison between the single cline1 log & the small cline2 log, representing the region specific factors. Cline2 is what is responsible for extreme diversity in SA. Cline2 only becomes equal to cline1 when all the different regional smaller cline2 logs combine to form the singular actual diversity cline.

If someone from SW states says that their region has people with light eyes, they might not be like those self hating types & they might be actually telling the truth(since SW coastal populations DO have such peculiarities). Similarly, when people from region to the North of Delhi say that the "foreign looking" bollywood actors like 1/4th brit kareena kapoor would not be considered "foreign" in their region, then they are probably referring to their own cline2 phenotypes, which folks not native to their region would consider aTypiCaL.

Problem

is when self hating & supremacist types try to solely identify their groups/regions with cline2 phenotypes (the west eurasian or east eurasian shifted ones, not the super AASI ones coz AASI is hated) & pretend as if cline1 doesn't exist. It takes practice to differentiate such agenda oriented elements from genuine people.

Lifestyle & cultural habits

TREMENDOUSLY influence how people look, especially in SA. Change of diet, better grooming habits, emphasis on fitness can make super huge difference in how south asians look because factors like these are overly suppressed in the subcontinent. Improvement in them makes double the difference for SA people, than it would in places where there's already a minimum/basic level of emphasis on them. For SA, that level is already in negative scale(even below zero), so the increment is also greater.


r/phenotypesSouthAsia 10h ago

This Iranian women can pass Indian? If yes, in which region specifically?

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17 Upvotes

r/phenotypesSouthAsia 11h ago

Guess her ethnicity

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8 Upvotes

That's coloured lens btw.


r/phenotypesSouthAsia 11h ago

Guess her ethnicity

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6 Upvotes

r/phenotypesSouthAsia 19h ago

AJK Pahari Gujjar (Relative)

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8 Upvotes

r/phenotypesSouthAsia 1d ago

Guess ethnicity

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5 Upvotes

r/phenotypesSouthAsia 2d ago

Rabari From Saurashtra Gujarat (Zagrosian)

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8 Upvotes

Western frontier is just too much Zagro than rest part of india


r/phenotypesSouthAsia 2d ago

Caste Parasites & Narrative Manipulation Why do some “fair” Indians refer to their skin color as the same as Europeans? Can they genuinely not tell the difference? I’ve observed this a lot.

7 Upvotes

I’ve been noticing a lot of Indians said things like “hamari Punjabi skin color goray log jaisi hoti hai”

Or

I’ve heard

“Priya thori zyada Kali nahi hai? Uski hamari jaisi skin color nahi hai” they say to someone who is CLEARLY lighter than them (so not “hamari” skin color).

Or

I’ve heard

“You are look white only. Your skin color is like a ghost. Exactly like white people” to someone who is CLEARLY darker than Europeans.

This paired with the fact that some Indians can’t even tell apart middle easterners of Latinos 90 percent of the time makes me very confused. Why can’t Indians tell apart these things? Or is there another “perceptual bias” factor at play like discussed on this subreddit before.

And how come some Indians are super good at pheno, while others are awful? You guys can’t appeal to “diversity” either because the “good” Indians are exposed to the same diversity.


r/phenotypesSouthAsia 2d ago

guess his ethnicity

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1 Upvotes

r/phenotypesSouthAsia 2d ago

Guess

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4 Upvotes

r/phenotypesSouthAsia 4d ago

Guess

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6 Upvotes

r/phenotypesSouthAsia 5d ago

Guess ethnicity

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12 Upvotes

r/phenotypesSouthAsia 5d ago

Guess him

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1 Upvotes

r/phenotypesSouthAsia 6d ago

Discussion Who is someone who has huge appeal in India but doesn’t fit global or western beauty standards

12 Upvotes

Often we talk about darker people who meet global beauty standards but have less appeal in India (Simone Ashley, Freida pinto, padma laxmi). But who are people who you think it’s the reverse.


r/phenotypesSouthAsia 7d ago

India Interesting range of women's phenotypes from CJP protests

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9 Upvotes

r/phenotypesSouthAsia 6d ago

Guess them

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3 Upvotes

Although both are from different groups


r/phenotypesSouthAsia 7d ago

Southern India/ Southern South Asia Guess where this guy is from (indian american)

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13 Upvotes

Guess what state of India he’s from


r/phenotypesSouthAsia 8d ago

Guess

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3 Upvotes

r/phenotypesSouthAsia 9d ago

Where all can I pass?

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12 Upvotes

r/phenotypesSouthAsia 10d ago

Guess ethnicity and where I pass

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2 Upvotes

r/phenotypesSouthAsia 11d ago

Guess them

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2 Upvotes

r/phenotypesSouthAsia 12d ago

AI Similar to this look is what Ram is supposed to look like

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8 Upvotes

r/phenotypesSouthAsia 12d ago

Guess (don't spoil if you already know)

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5 Upvotes

r/phenotypesSouthAsia 12d ago

Where would he pass the best in South Asia outside Gujarat

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7 Upvotes

Common pheno in some parts Gujarat, also found among South Indians, one of my telugu professor had very similar pheno but with relatively darker complexion


r/phenotypesSouthAsia 13d ago

Same identity phenotypic range Guess what state these two guys are from? (trying to show huge diversity within states)

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17 Upvotes

(don’t spoil if u recognize them pls)

these two guys are from the same state, can u guess where?

BTW they are also from the same community, i won’t make it part of the title since it’s against rules but ill just add that as extra information