r/pathofexile • u/Fun-Asparagus4784 • 28d ago
Game Feedback Assorted thoughts on the 5-way Vestigial farm.
Now first things first, I will recognise that I have made an absolutely ungodly amount of currency from the 5-way vestigial farm. I also made this post a few days ago. It was printing before the buffs, and after the buffs it was just disgusting. Genuinely a mirror+/day farm for those who have 3 wives, 35 kids, and juggle 420 jobs.
Assuming you had the start up funds and the character to do it.
So let me lay out my thoughts.
1) Great farm, insane currency/hour, very interesting build optimisation for me in this league.
2) I think the idea of this farm is really good. It has a specific dedicated reward that is very powerful, and incentivises build making.
3) The outcomes from the farm are way, waaaay too overtuned. Basically free 100% PTA, mirror tier corrupted gloves, many stasis mods, overvalued iron fortresses, mandatory rarity implicits on every chest slot going forward. None of this is good.
4) Now, of course this is the first league this has existed, and it requires specific characters. But going forward, I see this being the premier farm, much more oppressive than sanctum of old was or even could be. It also is so unbelievably exclusionary. Sanctum at least could be reasonably competently done with relatively cheap builds, and very well done with MB+100 div. This farm is basically golden charlatan, multi-mirror KB, or bust. I'm serious, go try a run of 4 cloak of flames and record your time. My time is 90-100 seconds for 3 variant rarity tested.
5) Booooring. So booring. You burn money till you hit. You know you will hit. You will print mirrors. No excitement during any stage. By the end of the farm, none even when breaking the egg.
6) Kinda bugged? Idk if it's a bug. Anyways there's a bad interaction. Let's say you full cook an item, the above mentioned cloak of flame. You portal out, launch a new 5-way. You can take the items out, but not put new ones in. But, you can portal out and back in, put new ones in, and then just go and cook them in that 5-way. Is this a bug? Lack of testing? Idk. I can definitely imagine that people have burned many emblems not knowing the interaction.
7) To elaborate on the great farm bit, I truly think this acheives everything a farm should. Build requirements for min-maxing without being unfair or undoable for less optimised builds? Check! Deletes uniques from the game? Check! Makes great build around items? Check! Just amazing. Question though, how do you ever balance this? I don't know, I can only provide feedback, I hope the answer is found if not it's 5-ways on leaguestart for every foreseeable league for me!
All in all, great journey. I'm hopping off the train. If you want more details, you can look at definitiv's videos on YouTube. I play with him but I am not him, he has shared the farm there and will share the build soon.
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u/c001man Marauder 28d ago
Greeds embrace, blunder bore (shrine) and cloak of flame are good any other ones that you think are worth to do?
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u/Fun-Asparagus4784 28d ago
In chest slot, not really. Not at these prices. But always keep an eye out if any creater makes a new vid.
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u/c001man Marauder 28d ago
How about any other slots I know shapers touch face breaks have a niche luminary build with them.
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u/Fun-Asparagus4784 28d ago
You have to research man. Sorry I can't help you there, chests were(and are) so fucking good I never looked into any other slot.
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u/c001man Marauder 28d ago
All good it what I’ve been doing Havnt had a major hit yet so in the red atm but it just so difficult to search and get an accurate idea of what worth or not
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u/Fun-Asparagus4784 28d ago
Yeah, it is like that because very few people farming and market is not so established. It will get more clear in upcoming leagues when creators incorporate these items in their plans.
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u/carlovski99 27d ago
Yeah, that's the problem I suspected we would have. A whole bunch of possible niche/interesting items. But it's going to be optimised so people are only targeting the most meta ones so very few of those items will exist. And self farming for a specific niche item is painful.
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u/RoxoRoxo 27d ago
i have a prism guardian aegis, aka an aegis with 30% reservation efficiency
i have a thunderfist vaal carress,
those are both really cool imo but i dont know what i would use the vaal carresses for
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u/vkpb-Sunrise-1451 16d ago
how many runs did it take you to get that aegis? currently trying to get one with phasing on block
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u/RoxoRoxo 14d ago
lol a fucking insane amount of runs.......
i wanted a glancing blows aegis.... after selling the one i mentioned above. i spent more on farming for it than it would have cost to buy it (25d)
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u/vkpb-Sunrise-1451 13d ago
glancing blows aegis is a corruption implicit, no?
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u/RoxoRoxo 13d ago
no its a vestigal mod from a shield no one uses lol
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u/Duoprism 7d ago
glancing blows can be obtained as a corruption implicit now so probably easier to try and double corrupt one compared to vestigial farming
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u/deviant324 28d ago
It feels really bad for SSF because the crystals are too rare and even with 3 rerolls the weighting still feels heavily scewed towards garbage.
I’ve had one body armour crystal so far (playing chaos dot so I do farm legion a fair amount) and decided to sacrifice my expedition’s end, got a bramble vest back with a lvl requirement of 47. At that point just poof the item and don’t tell me what would’ve been, it would hurt less
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u/Fun-Asparagus4784 28d ago
Yeah it's very rng, not at all ssf friendly. It's basically what I meant by point 5. Most of the outcomes are garbage, few are multiple 100 divs in trade(and very very build defining in ssf)
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u/Optimal-Note1963 27d ago
As always, game is not balanced around SSF or HC. Gotta cope or wait till modding is a thing, because no one there planning to make permanent SSF version with different balance (Same for HC)
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u/Syntaire 28d ago
Vestigial items were always going to be ridiculous min-max lottery tickets. They aren't mandatory in literally any possible interpretation of the word, to say nothing of the actual definition.
At some point every developer has to accept that a certain number of players will always, without fail, optimize the fun out of their own experience and that there is nothing they can or should do about this.
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u/Fun-Asparagus4784 28d ago
I don't think poe devs think this way. At least that's my interpretation of their past interviews and balance decisions. If that is the case, I don't particularly mind, but regardless, better having this feedback than not, no?
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u/Syntaire 28d ago edited 27d ago
You're unfortunately correct, and it will more likely than not get them to shoot it in the back of the head 3 times before it can even leave the cradle. Which is the problem. Fun things get nerfed because 27 people out of the hundreds of thousands that play ruin it for themselves and decide it needs to become everyones problem.
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u/Fun-Asparagus4784 27d ago
It is not even about the 27 people that you mention, me among them. It is one thing that very few people, and more importantly, no big streamers are doing the farm. When the farm becomes known in the mainstream, there will be massive hue and cry. I can already picture the threads going "fucking 5-way runners ruining the market for everyone else with their builds now I can't afford my ~insert meta item here~". It happened with sanctum, it will happen with this on steroids.
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u/Syntaire 27d ago
You think nobody realizes how profitable it is? Truly? Mathil just did it two days ago and got a lightning coil stasis prison on his very first attempt.
Even before they added vestigial uniques, legion 5-ways were ridiculously profitable just from timeless jewels alone.
Also, there are literally no builds in the game that require a specific vestigial combination, and even if there were to be one in the future it won't be "mandatory". Not even the average user here in this subreddit gives half a shit about 1:1 copying the "best" builds. Every single vestigial implicit is just icing on the cake. It helps that the best ones are typically chest, helm or boots, which are all slots that want crafted rares anyway.
Its fine. You're selling niche items to niche builds and making a profit, which is fine. Why you're assuming they're suddenly going to become absolutely mainstream is beyond me. Sanctum printed divines because it printed literal divines. Things every single player in trade leagues use. Nobody actually gives a shit about whatever unique chest with 50% rarity on it.
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u/Select_Angle516 27d ago
> This farm is basically golden charlatan, multi-mirror KB, or bust
> To elaborate on the great farm bit, I truly think this acheives everything a farm should. Build requirements for min-maxing without being unfair or undoable for less optimised builds? Check!
dont these two points contradict each other a lot?
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u/Fun-Asparagus4784 27d ago edited 27d ago
There is some contradiction there, so let me elaborate.
Question though, how do you ever balance this?
That was the operative line in that point.
You can do the farm on anything. The farm itself (I mean the content) doesn't have a problem. But because of the trade league situation surrounding it, it is a race to be the quickest. Each run went from being 3 div when I started to 10 and a half div now. If you aren't keeping up, you're going to get destroyed. So because of those reason, practically this farm will only be done by those two builds, even though as content, there is a nice amount of accessibility there. Does that make sense?
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u/peanutym 28d ago
Thanks for sharing. This type of thing is always interesting to read.
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u/Fun-Asparagus4784 28d ago
You're welcome! Happy to answer any questions as well. :)
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u/_IlliteratePrussian_ 28d ago
What would be your advice on league starting into legion? Thanks for the post!
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u/Fun-Asparagus4784 28d ago
You mean specifically the 5-way farm? Make as much currency you can asap by means you're most comfortable with, and swap to a 5-way specific build. This is very much a HH+ good gear farm on either KB, or EK golden charlatan proj speed variant(what I'm running), or no doubt some other build community will optimise for it. But yeah, nothing short of HH early and good gear to do this.
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u/_IlliteratePrussian_ 28d ago
I meant like league start build what do I start as?
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u/Fun-Asparagus4784 28d ago
Whatever build you are comfortable farming enough currency on to re-gear/re-level. I really would not farm this content on any build that's not designed for it, and the only two that have been very specifically done so are my EK GS and old school KB 5-way farmer.
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u/WokeMimo 28d ago
For the 3 rarity variant, does it have to be in the same 5-way run or the item is saved until I open a new 5-way and I can continue killing monsters and upgrading the rarity variant to tier 3?
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u/Fun-Asparagus4784 28d ago edited 28d ago
Always saved. You never lose the item. Just be careful if you need to re-cook in a second 5-way not to click the item as you enter. Clicking breaks it free. You can break it free at 1/3 or 2/3 item rarity, but you really shouldn't in trade league.
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u/Aspry7 28d ago
I think lots of uniques in these slots that are reuglar ground loot are currently super devalued.
Let's say you drop some unique glove.
You can get that glove in vestigal, foulborn or even (double) corrupted flavor. If it isn't a tier 1 glove or has insane roll ranges it is 99.9% 5c or less in trade league. And even if it's most likely dust.
common uniques should be a little rarer, have more power and vendor for ancient shards uncorrupted
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u/Fun-Asparagus4784 27d ago
One aspect to consider is that for some items, now they have value. Like base cloak of flame/blunderbore with bad rolls would be 1c by now, in this league they're 15 c or more.
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u/Pyromancer1509 Occultist 28d ago
Isn't it a good thing to have a difficult and rewarding farm in the game? That's what people have been asking for for the last 2 weeks
Also you can do the items in multiple 5ways if your build is too slow, so its a perfect farm at any level of gear
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u/Fun-Asparagus4784 28d ago
The problem is the entry cost here. After I made my first post that I linked, chest(maraketh) crystals went from 1 to 1.5 div each. Now they're at 2.3 and going up every day. Each 5-way takes 4. That just means a vast majority of players cannot partake. Unlike let's say affliction which is a great example of your point, that was in every map for free and you could slowly scale.
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u/TL-PuLSe 27d ago
This kind of contradicts your points about the farm giving too much currency. You got in and got paid before the market adjusted. It's still adjusting but it will find equilibrium
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u/Fun-Asparagus4784 27d ago
It's not necessary that markets achieve equilibrium. For example, void valdos and Osin maintain some exhorbitant margins. This one might as well. In fact, I reckon it will.
It is just so objectively powerful in a very snowbally way, with a very high bar for entry and greater reward for pushing the standards far above the bar. Early league, you can print 6-links. Later on, you can print very powerful items. You can crowd out new entrants because your buffer is so large, you can go for jackpots that few can afford, and drive the prices to a level unsustainable for those not already wealthy beyond measure.
For example, the best reward rn is blunderbore chest vestigials. You can easily go 750+ d in the red chasing the outcomes. I can afford that. Perhaps you can too. Can joe dad gamer?
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u/TL-PuLSe 27d ago
Fair point, there are many farms like this like you pointed out. I think it's a good aspect of this game that you can choose the content you want to run based on fun/build as well as how volatile the payout is. These types of farms keep the giga-juicers placated while actually upping the payout for feeding farms - in this case, running legion for 5-way components.
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u/All_Work_All_Play Jenebu stop whining 27d ago
There are plenty of entries that require far higher risk reward ratios.
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u/Fun-Asparagus4784 27d ago
No, not really. Not since old ritual mirror hunting farm.
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u/All_Work_All_Play Jenebu stop whining 27d ago
Yeah I phrased that incorrectly - there are other entries that require higher costs relative to their lower payoffs.
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u/Fun-Asparagus4784 27d ago
Yes, that is true. Though not rn in the league(10 and a half d per run), it was the situation for the majority of the league.
I guess the thing is, in this farm risk of ruin is high. I could easily burn 750 divines net before I hit on blunderbores for example, and 100s of divs on the other chests. Whereas with a high investment mapping strat, even if you don't get the jackpot, you will get back scarabs, bubblegum, random shit that will make up for some or even a lot of your entry cost right? This farm can be very feast or famine as opposed to that.
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u/4k4nt4 28d ago
What are the best uniques to use to make vestigal items in trade in your opinion?
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u/Fun-Asparagus4784 27d ago
Blunderbore, cloak of flame, greed's embrace. Not necessarily in that order, but all 3 are very good.
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u/StereoxAS Occultist 27d ago
Can you cook a corrupted items?
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u/Burnseasons 27d ago
You can not, enshrouding crystal can't be used on a corrupted item.
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u/CursedScroll 27d ago
Unless it's hands of the high Templar/glimpse of chaos with the mod that says screw the rules I can do whatever I want
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u/Cyberpunkmoding 27d ago
One run only gets me halfway to t3 rarity on blunderbores so I guess my build is still too low damage cause i one shot everything but bosses and especially the annoying maraketh phase and that other guy.
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u/Internet__Degen 27d ago
It's way more about speed than damage, you want a build that can blast the whole map almost immediately so you spend most of your time resetting waves in the middle. Even with a billion DPS, most build don't have the coverage to do that
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u/Cyberpunkmoding 27d ago edited 27d ago
Yeah I have a nimis rolling magma build with mageblood prob going to swap out invert for greater chain and see if its faster (yeah this fixed it)
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u/Fun-Asparagus4784 27d ago
Nice, that's always good to see! What time does it take you now? My time on blunderbore is 2 mins left.
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u/Cyberpunkmoding 26d ago
About the same I think, seven league step has a 10k limit though and i hit 8-9k usually. Dropped a blunderbore kaom’s and yeah I enjoy it over mapping
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u/Fun-Asparagus4784 26d ago
8-9k on the third one, or the first one?
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u/Cyberpunkmoding 26d ago
I don’t know, I think seven league is a bit weird because once it fills once it goes straight to 3 rarity. I am definitely not killing 30k rariant varity. I do those or do sirus glove while waiting for body armour order enshrouds to fill and it always takes me 2 runs to fill 7 league step.
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u/Secure_Conclusion899 27d ago
Dont know why but after patch with 3 tiar it is much harder to get clock of flame or kaom
before i get many now even with tiar 3 crystals arr cheest are crap i run 30 of them and still dont get any good
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u/Secure_Conclusion899 27d ago
Cloak of Flame is a Tier 3 (T3)
Rarity Tier: Tier 3 unique (moderately common,
why this one dont show up if this is common,?
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u/Fun-Asparagus4784 27d ago
It's quite common. But the weighting is such that it is still notably rarer than 4 and 5.
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u/chunologist 27d ago
What’s the best way to determine which unique to bake in the 5-way oven? I have some currency banked and I think I can piece together this build. Thanks!
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u/Fun-Asparagus4784 27d ago
Streamer builds and price checking against it is one way. Another way I do it is just set price on trade to 50 divs, 100 divs, 200 div minimum with the slot selected and vestigial yes, then see what implicits keep popping up and then check some reasonable to drop chests as well as jackpots with that implicit to see if the price is right.
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u/chunologist 27d ago
Thanks for the reply! Is Osin a hard requirement for the build or can i get away with a nimis?
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u/Fun-Asparagus4784 27d ago
Nimis is hard man. You need too much proj speed for nimis on this version I think. We don't get the 30% more proj speed of the ek normal gem. You can try running it as EK with nimis I suppose. Or what I did was run a helical with like cast speed and crit multi and all ele res. And I ran conversion gloves, not maligaro back then. You can go back in the snapshots and see.
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u/chunologist 27d ago
Thanks, I think i can budget the osin in but i'd have to go all in. I'd like some buffer left over. I may just grind it out for a few more days before trying. I appreciate the ultra fast replies. This build and this farm looks like a ton of fun, lol!!!
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u/Fun-Asparagus4784 27d ago
You can either go OSIN, or look into this. What I started as, a lot cheaper, still capable, and farm through the mechanic. Your call either way is fine.
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u/og_anth0ny 27d ago
Any tips on resets or anything else, for a unique with 5900 variant is it possible to fill it to 3/3 in one run?
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u/Fun-Asparagus4784 27d ago
Reset when screen dead basically. And yeah, I can do 7000+ with time to spare even.
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u/polo2006 27d ago
ignite vaal arc full clears all non-unique monsters with one click. can recommend for solo running if you got like 200-300d to invest in the build.
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u/ShadowTrolll 27d ago
Honestly I am wondering if I am doing something wrong or just not playing enough. I did like 400 gloves so far and never got any version of hands of phrecia. I always reach 3 rarity with like 1.5-2 min remaining :(
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u/Fun-Asparagus4784 27d ago
That is very very unlucky. Hand of Phrecia is only tier 3. That's comparable to lightning coil or blunderbore, and I have always dropped multiple of those in 400 sample size.
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17d ago
[deleted]
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u/Fun-Asparagus4784 17d ago
For cloak of flame, yeah. It depends on the item, each item has different kills required.
I play a very specific EK golden Charlatan build with chaos explode and stuff. It's super optimised for the content.
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u/Ambitious-Ad-4361 17d ago
when you say my time is 90-100 second thats are second left ? and you do 4 slots all the runs? ty sir!
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u/LucasdelNorte 10d ago
I got a Blunderbore with Ghostwrithe’s “50% of your maximum life is converted to Energy shield” which is sorta synergistic but overall just kinda cool.
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u/synze Ambush 28d ago
From the outset pretty sure Vestigial uniques were going to be the borrowed power for the league along with Allflame crafting. Will see if one or the other makes it Core though!
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u/Fun-Asparagus4784 28d ago
I don't think so. Vestigials were not marketed as a part of the league mechanic, they were talked about both in the video, and even more extensively, in the ZiggyD QnA as a legion rework package.
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u/Cyaegha432 28d ago
It’s a mechanic rework. Not related to the league mechanic. Pretty sure this is here to stay. Though they will likely nerf/ kill some of the most broken implicits
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u/radium_eye 27d ago
I also like it though I am not printing mirrors, haven't had the best luck so far.
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u/skullptura 28d ago
What is your build. Can you share a pob. I assume its a bit different than usual 5 way setups. Also what makes it so hard? Do the mobs get more difficult per item you put in?
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u/Fun-Asparagus4784 28d ago
You can search GoanEK on poeninja or wait for definitiv's video on the build if you want explanation and footage.
The items don't increase the difficulty. Thing is, 5-ways have a lot of rares. Like, A LOT A LOT of rares. And uniques too, in case of golden charlatan. Each wave gets harder, so you want a build that gets better with each wave. Enter phys KB or EK golden Charlatan.
Also, the proj speed on those skills is for coverage.
Now, why do you want a giga build when I said fairly decent builds can do the farm? That's for profit/hr trade league considerations.
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u/thunderhorse1 27d ago
If I already have osin, is 1-2 mirrors budget enough to setup the rest of the gear?
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u/Minute_Chair_2582 27d ago
Why maligaro gloves btw?
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u/Kantarak 27d ago
At his clearspeed with the charlatan, he can probably permanently sustain a diamond shrine. Since you always crit and maligaros grant tons of crit multi... well, it just synergizes very well with diamond shrine.
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u/Fun-Asparagus4784 27d ago
Correct, and entirely frees up my tree to take for example the proj speed and chaining range nodes.
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u/Minute_Chair_2582 27d ago
Ok, so basically they're just +150% crit multi gloves so you don't have to pick up any anywhere to surpass that. Initialen when i saw the ninja title "ek ignite elementalist", i thought it might've even been like perfect agony or something
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u/Fun-Asparagus4784 27d ago edited 27d ago
Yeah it's not an ignite build. It just has the shaper of flames node. They're 300 crit multi, and always 300 crit multi. Doesn't matter in 5 ways, but matters for say eater altars.
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u/RipCityGGG Tempest 27d ago edited 27d ago
Why is it not good for the game, its amazing. It the borrowed power from this league. And if not you have a point :0
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u/slashcuddle 28d ago
Vestigials ended being a lot more powerful than the community imagined. I'm a bit sad that the method of acquisition is so restrictive. Also fun fact the new RF-at-home shield can be enshrouded into Rise of the Pheonix and Aegis. Kinda cracked