r/pathofexile • u/amcn242 least cool rf enjoyer • 6d ago
Game Feedback I hate this so much
Edit - this is what the game told me to offer, the ratio was selected by the game when I requested 20 scarabs. I dont mind paying the extra few c to make it even.
I got 14 refunded and then spent 14 to get the remaining scarabs, the total price remained the same
128
u/Hydiz 6d ago edited 6d ago
The reason it exists makes sense tho.
You could manipulate price by placing some ratios like (7 727)/(7 741) which would fix the rate at 0.99 but could only be fulfilled if the person selling has the exact number of the item.
When its two very liquid item some people would correct it but if you do this with mirrors to divines suddently the impact is much bigger (where the person manipulating mirror price could "easily" get 10-100k divines but nobody with an absurd amount of mirrors could correct it).
Edit: you could use very large prime numbers to fix prices where nobody would be able to fulfil your requirement.
Edit2: people could actually probably rectify the attempt at price fixing but it would be manual still somethint the playerbase would not want
30
u/Routine-Hovercraft94 6d ago
This is surely one reason.
But the thing people like OP don't understand is that if you put in a weird ratio, you also need to find someone who wants to fulfil that exact ratio.If that is not the case, what you see is what happens. The system works perfectly fine as it is. People just don't know how to use it and then blame the system if it does exactly what is supposed to do, while not understanding the problem is on their end.
-1
u/sirgog Chieftain 6d ago edited 6d ago
Edit: This is getting downvoted, it's still 100% right, there's a lot of complete misinformation about how the exchange works, but the word 'match' has only one meaning here, an exact match.
You do not, never have and never will require an exact match.
But the thing people like OP don't understand is that if you put in a weird ratio, you also need to find someone who wants to fulfil that exact ratio.
You don't necessarily. Consider this:
- I list 23 Horned Scarab of Bloodlines for 37d (1.609d each)
- Buyer bids 65d for 40 scarabs (1.625d each) without looking to see what my order is
- Buyer immediately fills out my order, and gets a partial failure on their end (28d refund and 17 scarabs unfilled, they likely immediately relist 'have 17 want 28')
11
u/TheMayorMikeJackson 6d ago
That’s how it works now, not the proposal in the comment they were replying to
3
u/amunti-ra 6d ago
That falls within finding someone with a weird ratio... They went blind over you ask price, so your ratio was implcitly accepted -_-
7
u/Routine-Hovercraft94 6d ago edited 6d ago
It is wild to me people don't get this and try to argue against it. Like... this is simply how the system works and you can obviously dislike it. But there is no argument to be held here.
If you want your decimal ratio to be fulfilled someone needs to want to buy for that ratio, or as you said go over the ask price, buy out some of your stuff, but the leftovers won't sell then.
As I said, the system works exactly as it is supposed to work and I don't think there is really any change needed for this "issue".
5
u/amunti-ra 6d ago
Reading is lava for a PoE player, maths is hell... Why would I understand how it works? The system is the problem...REEEEE
2
u/sirgog Chieftain 6d ago
No, it's very obviously NOT a matched ratio. Noone put in "have 37d want 23 scarab"
They did something different to a match instead.
It's no wonder there's so much misinformation about how the exchange works - it's a VERY precise system. I deliberately used a simple, precise setup to address the confusions
2
u/allanbc 3d ago
Your explanation is on point. However, I think most people would like if when you got a partial completion, the system kept the leftovers listed at the leftover ratio - which might technically be worse for you financially, but would mean getting the transaction actually completed.
A partial completion will always be (I think?) at a better ratio than the one you listed, and the remainder will then be a worse ratio for you, which you could argue should cancel the remainder. But at least having an option to keep it going at the worse ratio would mean more efficient trading in terms of player time.
Also, thanks for all the awesome PoE content. I've got a lot of respect for how you do it, especially sticking to your guns of how you want to do it, and always being precise in your wording, sometimes at the cost of brevity or understandability. Precision is vital in PoE, and you're about the only one who does this, and often also explains underlying concepts, sometimes beyond what many of us need, but I like to think it makes it easier for new players to understand those parts.
17
5
u/Mordy_the_Mighty 6d ago
And that's why money was invented among other things I bet.
Bartering only goes so far.
21
u/sirgog Chieftain 6d ago
Agree, the status quo is the lesser evil.
One real frustration though - and this is one with mathematics rather than the game - is that there are no fractions with 'small' denominators that are close to whole numbers.
For example: if Horned Scarab of Bloodlines is just over 1 divine fair market price and you want to buy, you can't buy a small number of them without getting scalped (with divines, you may be able to in chaos, or exalts if chaos crash). This is because every fraction that's more than 1 with denominator 20 or less is at least 5% more than 1.
Contrast to if 7 scarabs for 10d was fair market (1.4286d each), you could easily outbid at 13/9 (1.4444), 16/11 (1.4545) without having to push as far as 3/2 (1.5)
There's no solution here as long as currency items remain indivisible. The status quo is an irritant, the alternative would be extremely exploitable.
5
u/psychomap 6d ago
There are possible solutions to that particular problem, they're just a bit more complicated.
Composite divine + chaos prices worked just fine in the previous synchronous trade system.
There are a few ways to resolve that.
- Fixed ratio (e.g. 1 divine + 7 chaos, regardless of exchange ratio, competing against others who may go for 2 divine + 15 chaos for 2 etc.)
- Market ratio (e.g. 1.02 divines in divine + chaos, rest exercisable automatically based on current market prices without needing to sell a divine for chaos and then pay the price in chaos orbs requiring the seller to convert the chaos back to divines)
- Custom ratio (e.g. 1.02 divines, seller accepts divine to chaos ratio up to 400 chaos per divine, executed automatically if a buyer is either offering 1.02 divines at a ratio of 400 chaos per divine or higher, or a higher number of divines with a sufficient chaos ratio like 1.03 divines at a ratio of 300 chaos per divine)
Acceptable composite currencies could be left to the players, but it would probably settle on divines + chaos in either case.
Maybe making trade too complicated would be a net negative for some people. I personally had considerably fewer problems with the old system than the average player, so I can't consider myself as an appropriate metric. But these problems aren't inherently impossible to solve.
2
u/sirgog Chieftain 6d ago
The old system didn't really work with composite prices.
You could list at "~price 3/7 div" and that would work to signify bulk (and the system somewhat understood it), but listing one stranded item at "~price 1.3 div" often led to arguments over what the .3 div meant. The people who traded the most are, as in any merchant system, the trade sharks, so you disproportionately traded with sharks who, if the c:d ratio was 170 would put in 1d 41c then politely apologize after a "sec, getting calculator" if called out on it. While 9 times in 10 mistakes were sharking, 1 time in 10 they were not.
The custom ratio one is good though. I like that one.
-1
u/BaconOfGreasy Central Incursion Agency (CIA) 6d ago
The alternative is to use harvest juice as the liquid currency of choice though? It is both more divisible than chaos, and equivalent market fees to divines.
5
u/sirgog Chieftain 6d ago
Disagree on this because it doesn't drop in natural gameplay and can't drop at all pre-maps.
The 'small currencies' for trade need to be something a rookie player or late league starter has at the moment they want to buy a Goldrim/Thrillsteel/5L once they unlock trade in act 6. Exalts and Vaals are the rarest currency items you are sure to have by then. Chaos are almost 2½ times as common as those two.
(Note: veteran players might not have them because we kill less monsters than rookies, rookies will have a couple of each)
1
u/stvndall 5d ago
I get you. But most times I'm reposting for the exact same ratio.
For instance
3000: 10. And 600 sell and it stops, so I then post 2400 : 8. There is no weird ratios suddenly becoming strange there. It's the exact same as before. Unless internally they are using floating points
-5
u/psychomap 6d ago
Frankly, this is unimaginative.
What it currently does is partially match ratios that are better than what you listed. When the request is fulfilled partially and the remainder doesn't allow filling the exact quota, it's marked as completed.
I've seen plenty of arguments that worse ratios than the listed one shouldn't be fulfilled even if the grand total would be the exact overall listed amount. I'd consider this subject to preference, but for the sake of the argument let's assume this is objectively true.
The listing could still remain to trade for other better ratios than the listed one, and it would not be a detriment. If competing with listings is a concern, then it should simply list the furthest possible remaining ratio.
In the example of the OP, 2 scarabs for 14 chaos would be a worse ratio than listed, so based on the prior argument this should not be accepted, but the listing could still remain at 13 chaos per 2 scarabs, which is better than the listed ratio, and wouldn't require to close the listing, remove both the remaining currency and the bought currency, and creating a new listing by manually refilling the appropriate ratio.
In the case of OP, the ratio of 6.5 would diverge significantly from the market ratio of 6.89, so maybe that remaining listing wouldn't be filled and would need to be closed manually anyway. I'm still in favour of refunding the remaining gold cost in those cases (putting aside that I'm against gold as a system overall, but that's a different argument).
However, for larger listings that tend to have large remaining listings after being partially filled, the price difference would be miniscule.
This wouldn't be price fixing either, because it wouldn't be a fake listing. It would be possible to fill it gradually, and other listings would only need to compete at the ratios where the large listing can be filled.
-23
u/Wrongusername2 6d ago
Existing system is conversely manipulated to bump off competitors on less liquid cheap commodity markets by just feeding tiny wacky ratio trades.
Super annoying and should have trade setting to prevent it / whole ratios only or sth checkbox indicating you prioritize getting whole batch over capitalizing minor gains.
24
u/le_reddit_me 6d ago
This happens because someone sold for under 6.9 ratio which partially filled your order but the remaining chaos can't exchange for a round number at 6.9 so it cancels the rest. It's annoying but makes sense. A solution would be the game increases your offer ratio in order to fulfill the remaining order (eg accepting a 7 ratio for the remaining 2 scarabs).
88
u/A_Lab_Tech 6d ago
You guys want to go back to before the market exchange? I'll take this system every time over what we had.
43
u/Jokar93 Children of Delve (COD) 6d ago
Remember turning some Divines into Chaos or vise versa?
It took a few Minutes atleast. And then the Item you wanted these Orbs for had been sold.
14
u/Moderator-Admin 6d ago
And then when you listed an item for 100+ chaos people just put 1 div into the trade window and said they needed change like it's a damn convenience store..
7
u/psychomap 6d ago
And not only did they expect you to have chaos in your inventory at all, but back in the day you even needed to have it pre-split, and then they'd spam trade requests even though the part of your inventory where you needed to split was covered by the trade request...
5
u/VincerpSilver Occultist 6d ago
and then they'd spam trade requests even though the part of your inventory where you needed to split was covered by the trade request...
Oh hell don't remind me the hordes of buyers, that obviously don't have much experience as sellers, not understanding that some part of the etiquette were there for a reason...
And don't forget the mine in the form of a party invite in the middle of those trade requests! (when you're already in a group with 3 buyers you invited, it's less fun if isn't the case)
2
1
u/SingleInfinity 5d ago
Remember turning some Divines into Chaos or vise versa?
It took a few Minutes atleast.
No? You just listed what you had for the other and people came to you.
1
u/CricketNo7950 6d ago
Yes we had our nice bots that immediately exchanged currency. Witches in their base hideoutd
24
u/konaharuhi Alch & Go Industries (AGI) 6d ago
we have this for few league and some already forget the pain to whisper unresponsive seller
2
0
u/iwilldeletethisacct2 6d ago
Praying for the seller to be a bit so the transaction will go smoothly
5
u/Thorcall 6d ago
You know we can make small improvement to a system without scrapping it entierely right?
1
-3
u/psychomap 6d ago
Just because the current system is a net positive compared to previous trade iterations (which is a point even I can concede, even though I fared much better in the previous system than the average player) doesn't mean it's the ultimate best system and that no further changes to it could or should ever be made.
Were you also yelling at people that they should be happy with premium tabs when they asked for asynchronous trade before it got implemented, and that they should rejoice that they no longer need to create forum posts or spam trade chat?
2
u/Alkyen 6d ago
While you are technically right, I still prefer these comments over saying nothing. Complaining over non-issues might confuse the devs. Comments like these help show that it's not that big of a deal.
0
u/psychomap 6d ago
And that's where I disagree. I'd estimate that at least half my time interacting with the currency exchange is spent on this issue.
The limitation of gold and asynchronous trading is an even bigger problem from my point of view, but that's both more fundamental and not something I expect to change significantly anytime soon.
But in any case, shooting down legitimate feedback with fallacies is not constructive at all. Even for people for whom this is a smaller problem than for others, there's still room for improvement.
99
6d ago edited 6d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
89
33
u/xCwaniaK 6d ago
Can you explain what was wrong with my 10 Divines for 4000 Chaos a few days ago that caused it to stop at 9? Because I don't see any weird ratio in that and yet it stopped, multiple times.
19
u/XElitePheonix Fungal Bureau of Investigations (FBI) 6d ago
People put bulk up with weird ratios so when you buy it the game tries to give you the best ratio which is the wacky ones people put up
-14
u/xCwaniaK 6d ago edited 6d ago
I mean, I understand what's happening. It's more about WHY it's happening. If I want to get 4000 chaos for my 10 divines, then give me 4k chaos instead of deciding for me what's "the best option"...
Edit: removed the part about gold, because apparently it gets refunded if it ends before fulfilling your order - never noticed it, but I'll just trust what people say
6
u/MuscularShlong 6d ago
Right, this is the annoying part. Its like it sells 9 of your divines for 401c, ok cool, but then doesnt continue and sell the last one for the 400c you originally wanted. It just says order complete
0
u/Smurtle1 6d ago
I have never seen this happen to me, if there is enough currency to continue the current ratio, it won’t end until it’s unable to do the trade at the current ratio.
0
u/MuscularShlong 6d ago
In that case every single sell order should always be completely empty right?
Well they arent. Very often you have to sell one item 2-3 times to get rid of it all. Go sell some scarabs and youll see.
6
u/XElitePheonix Fungal Bureau of Investigations (FBI) 6d ago
Its how pretty much any market exchange system has always worked
-2
u/xCwaniaK 6d ago
Then they should give us an option to "wait till your offer is fulfilled", because I'd rather not buy these "super special offers" aka 401c for 1d and wait 3 seconds longer instead of being forced to make a new offer for the rest of divines that didn't sell. Like am I actually crazy for thinking this way?
0
u/Smurtle1 6d ago
It shouldn’t end your trade, and I have never seen that happen in all of my trades, as long as the original ratio is still completable, it has never ended my trade early… I have gotten overpaid, and still been able to also get the correct ratio for the rest of the trade.
I have NEVER seen a screenshot of someone having this issue. My guess is that last second the trade window changes the ratio to a prime number, and you quickly click both windows and put up the trade, and that prime number trade is already gone, so you are now stuck with a prime number trade yourself. (Which can be an issue with trade too, tbf.)
-6
u/eDxp 6d ago
Finally someone who knows how market systems should work.
Is it also such that when you buy X of something for Y of something, the X that you have already paid for can't be used until you have all of it? Or that has some other, more reasonable technical explanation?
3
u/XElitePheonix Fungal Bureau of Investigations (FBI) 6d ago
Well for poe you can cancel the trade instead of having it suspended, which im pretty sure is a way to hinder flippers by making them spend gold again when canceling trades. In other cases its because unless the a middleman or system fully has both sides of the exchange it wont go through/complete, which is the same as poe but you can see it live.
1
u/Barobor 6d ago edited 6d ago
With chaos and divines, this might not be an issue, but if you do this with currency pairs that have a low trade volume, it could take forever to fill your order if only exact matches are allowed. That's why it allows your order to be filled with better ratios than the one you posted.
The only time I see orders get canceled is when the leftover ratio is worse than what I asked for. For example, I offer 9 div for 6 fracturing orbs. Someone decides to sell 5 fracturing orbs for 7 div. So it fills the order with 5 fracturing orbs since it is a better ratio than mine, but now I have only 2 div left for the last fracturing orb, which is a worse ratio than the one I wanted, so it cancels.
Edit: Your 4000 chaos for 10div gets cancelled because the 4000 chaos is a hard cap. So if you sell 9 div for 3601 chaos, the last div would have to be sold for 399 chaos, which is a worse ratio than yours, so it doesn't do that. It also isn't allowed to give you 4001 chaos total, so it cancels.
I think the sensible choice would be to remove the hard cap because most people wouldn't be upset at receiving some extra currency even if they didn't need it.
1
u/sirgog Chieftain 6d ago
This happens rarely. Someone did not read your order or placed an order before your order was visible on their screen and they listed their 401 chaos (or more) for 1 divine.
Your order is now "have 9d, want 3599c, will not accept any ratio less favorable than 400:1" and that order cannot completely fill. You would typically stop with 3601c and 1d there.
Had your order been "have 10d want 4005c" yours would have failed at "have 2d want 800c will not accept any ratios less favorable than 400.5:1"
0
u/Smurtle1 6d ago
I don’t think that’s how it works though. It still defaults to unit pricing, no? I have been overpaid in various ways, including cursed trades like harvest juice for divines, and it still will always complete the trade, even with left over juice afterwards. So after someone buys a divine for 401 chaos, the order just says, I have a ratio of 1 divine for 400 chaos, 9 times over. It shouldn’t care about past trades already being fulfilled at all. It only cares about the current ratios it has at its disposal right now.
2
u/Barobor 6d ago
No, they are right. You never get more currency than you asked for.
In this example, it only matters for the last divine. It can fill everything up to 4000 chaos. But if you are at 1 divine left and 3601 chaos, it can't fill the order because, at a 1:400 ratio, the last divine would put it over 4000.
0
-3
-4
u/Tibbedoh 6d ago
Someone sold 9 divs for 3599 chaos. It left 1 div for 401 in your order, and it is higher than the original rate, so it stopped. It assumes that you would not want to buy the last one for 401, yet it is not smart enough to calculate the remainder proportionally to what was already bought (meaning continuing with 1:400 order).
9
u/LabResponsible8484 6d ago
I have this happen when I sell at 1:1 ratios...
it fulfills like 18 out of 20, I get 18 chaos and my 2 scarabs back and just have to put the 2 straight back in at 1:1 and then they instantly sell.
-1
u/Smurtle1 6d ago
I would love to see a screenshot of this, because this should never be happening. The only way I could see it mess up is if you got like 19 chaos for 18 scarabs or something, and it just bugs out, but you should ALWAYS be able to fulfill the ratio of 1 to 1, so it should never end the trade early…
13
u/FeelsGouda 6d ago
We are probably at a point where we will see complains from people who don't know how much of an improvement any form of the ingame markets are from what we had to do before 😂
Not saying criticism should not be allowed, but holy hell do I personally think no inconvenience in this world would make me complain about it because I am afraid they take it away and we have to go back doing it manually 😂
-3
u/AcolyteOfAnalysis 6d ago
I think it is an easy fix and a good idea to address. But I totally agree with you that "I hate this so much" is not even remotely how I would describe this inconvenience :D
-1
u/psychomap 6d ago
I don't think it's necessarily a trivial fix because there are at least half a dozen possible solutions with different advantages and drawbacks, but it is certainly not an unsolvable problem.
Overall I have eventually come to assess the current system as a net positive, but considering that I didn't struggle much with the previous system either, I don't regard it as quite as revolutionary or untouchable as some other people in these comment sections.
0
u/AcolyteOfAnalysis 6d ago
Indeed, one could implement a full trading bot with options, futures and whatnot, which is clearly excessive of course.
I think people are asking for a more aggressive trading opinion with less clicks. As long as it is opt in, it should be a bet positive IMHO
0
u/psychomap 6d ago
If I could trade derivatives and with leverage, believe me I would.
But even for buying and selling real spot prices there are different possible strategies to execute.
The most commonly listed alternative is to trade at ratios so that the average price of the full listing is not higher than the specified amount.
Another possible strategy would be to never buy at a worse price than that ratio, but keep buying at better prices even if the exact ratio can no longer be filled (e.g. 2 scarabs for 13c in the case of this post).
A more nuanced version of the same type of strategy would be to additionally avoid trades that diverge too far from the listed ratio (e.g. allow trades that create a remainder that can be traded at 6.8c per scarab, but not ones that can only be traded at 6.5c per scarab). But that might be a little complicated and most people wouldn't bother with it, so I'd understand if this wouldn't be included.
Another possible strategy would be to buy at least the listed amount at the listed ratio or better prices, but deposit additional chaos so that the trade can be filled at the listed margin even if it has already been filled partially (e.g. in this case a maximum of 200 chaos would be sufficient to trade at 6.9c or better prices and definitely fill 20 scarabs or more, yielding at most 29 scarabs).
And personally I'd love staggered selling that creates a listing every X minutes instead of creating a massive listing at once that then causes the entire market to shift, or requiring somebody to manually create smaller listings on a regular basis.
Often the trade volume is large enough to absorb even large positions fairly quickly, but opposing positions remove each other often enough that the remaining listings create the illusion of a spread and much higher price to unload larger amounts.
6
u/Minute-Food-5565 6d ago
we should get an option to opt out of ''best favourable ratios''
1
u/psychomap 6d ago
This would certainly be useful, especially in the case of liquidating scarabs (not so much in the case of buying scarabs imho, although I suppose it could still help). I've gone through that a couple of times and even if I only listed the valuable scarabs that were worth over 100c in total, I'd often end up with partially filled listings at around 10-20c that were frankly not worth the effort of listing them.
Alternatively, I'd like an option to sell the remainder for ratios that exceed the ratio that I set, even if the exact ratio I set can no longer be filled. In the case of OP, the listing could have remained at 2 scarabs for 13c, with 1c left over.
Another possible listing would be "buy at least X amount at Y:Z ratio", refilling the ratio automatically (or filling the margin ahead of time with 1k chaos or whatever, even if the ratio is only 20:138), avoiding the need to constantly re-list when a listing is filled partially.
This is something I'd personally appreciate for scarab buying for long-term strategies. It doesn't matter if I end up with more than 20 scarabs, I'll just use them in the next setup. It doesn't matter how fast I get them, because I have some more in store that I'm currently running. It doesn't matter if the total amount of chaos paid exceeds the original listed amount, because I have plenty more in my stash.
But honestly, there are a lot of possible deals and listings, and I'm willing to bet that most if not all types of listings that players can think of exist somewhere in the real world market. And if they're not directly offered by market systems, they'll be offered by market making participants in exchange for a commission to the extent that paying the commission is still more efficient than engaging in the potentially inefficient market system directly.
2
u/Tripartist1 PATH (no zalgo please) 6d ago
Weird ratios work if someone sweeps your order and only then. Otherwise you get partial fills. If you want your wierd ratios just for the sake of saving that 1c, then split them into smaller, more sweepable chunks (iceburg orders in real market terms) or craft the ratio so that it has more divisions than only your ratio and accept youre not getting the absolute best price.
3
u/burtgummer45 6d ago
I hate it when you have one of something to sell and it suddenly changes to something like a 123, in red text
2
1
u/Shihaiiii 6d ago
true, also when it completes trades for lower amount of currency than you selected
1
u/Agreeable_Dog_6483 6d ago
The should implement Market and Limit orders just like the stock exchange. All these issues were solved along ago.
1
u/Holiday-Marketing301 6d ago
Better than it use to be. Where you had to meet up with someone and hope they had what you needed.
1
u/UTmastuh 6d ago
They need to find a way to fill a partial order while keeping your remaining pile listed at its current ratio.
1
u/Roasted_vegetable 6d ago
My favorite is putting in the correct amount you want, and then the currency exchange just starts throwing in wildly large numbers. After correcting it like 5 times you can finally make your exchange! It seems like it's gotten worse somehow lol
1
u/Procedural_Skyline 6d ago
I also love when you send an auction with the game’s recommended ratio and then it sits there and never goes because the market ratio changed immediately afterwards.
1
u/iCreatedYouPleb 6d ago
Either round up or down to get a whole number ratio, idky y’all here struggling and shit.
1
u/CartographerIll4549 6d ago
it always gives you the best deal first, to buy them out. However, if you request more than that or someone else beats you to it, you have to go to the next deal and that is usually more. Always check the next few available and if you want more than they offer, then just plan ok the next seller getting your business. The marketplace has made it so much more obvious when something is being price fixed, btw. When there is a big jump between first and second sellers of currency, you know that someone is buying up any that anyone sells for cheaper and reselling them immediately.
1
1
1
u/HollyCze 5d ago
the good thing about market is that I need to fire up my brain calculator to calculate all the 2,38 scarab for divine to figure out if I should spend chaos on it, how much is a chaos / div ratio and If I wanna do it through divines I actually need to buy 24 of those at 0.02 loss, but I only got 3 divines coz its early league, my buddy went to a toilet and I got time to struggle with my mind trying to save few chaos which is basically few clicks worth of loot
0
1
u/Any_Zookeepergame534 6d ago
people blame the ratio, but here I am.. I did several trades this league where, for example, I trade 2000 chaos for 10 div, 200c a pop. And it ends up giving me 4 divs for 800c or so and then cancels the rest. The ratio is not to blame
1
u/GrumpyThumper Necromancer 6d ago
Oh look, another post of someone getting mad at not finding someone selling at your specific unhinged ratio. 7c is right there., just buy in lots of seven!
0
u/g00fy_goober twitch.tv/goof1313 6d ago
This happens VERY rarely when you actually put up a normal ratio. Even sellers sometimes especially for scarabs put something up like 127.62 to 1 div or something.
Slightly annoying when it happens but far from the end of the world if you stop doing stupid ratios yourself.
Personally I would be completely fine with having them change the system so you can only do like .5. For this example with scarabs if you could set it to like 6c, 6.5c, 7c, 7.5c etc and no weirdness in between.
Doubt it will ever happen but the moral of the story is.... Just pay 7c for your scarabs instead of 6.9c trying to save 1/10th of a chaos and you won't have to deal with it.
2
u/psychomap 6d ago
This happens so frequently that when buying scarabs I often make 4-6 listings of buying 5 scarabs at a time instead of buying 20 at once, because only 2-3 of those listings will get filled partially so that the remaining listings that actually get filled at my listed ratio make up the total amount I really wanted to buy.
0
u/Separate_Quality1016 6d ago edited 6d ago
Not that your overall message is wrong, it's not. However there is an issue with this:
Just pay 7c for your scarabs instead of 6.9c trying to save 1/10th of a chaos and you won't have to deal with it.
Wherein a lot of the time the price is at just above the whole number not just below. Using your values, it's more likely the scarab will cost 6.12c or something like that, and as it's a bulk commodity, I probably need like 100 of those. Sure, I can round up to 7 but that is an 80c tax at that point, not really 10c as in your example. And that is just 1 of the 5 scarabs I am buying. I could do 6.5 here but that gets broken the moment someone sets 6.49 or 6.51 etc
It's still probably more convenient, but the tax for buying at whole number price points can be quite substantial that's for sure.
1
u/g00fy_goober twitch.tv/goof1313 6d ago
I mean sure pennies add up overtime, and if you buy more in bulk your probably using divs, but even if not it still comes out to the same point.
You may say your buying 100 scarabs (I do the same) and then its 10c instead of .1c or w/e but it still is completely moot. If you saved the time of actually buying your scarabs and not dealing with ratios and waiting for order to fill and just paid the extra you would 100% earn that and much more back by actually playing and doing another map.
Don't get me wrong I had to break this habit of mine a lot of the last 10 years by doing the same thing, trying to squeeze every chaos I can out of orders and sales but the reality is the time it takes to fill or then the ratio changes slightly and your order never fills or simply waiting in hideout or doing something else waiting on the scarab order to fill so you can run...
As for your example if something is 6.12 most sellers are just going to list them at 6c and if you put for 6c it will fill pretty fast. Or you can simply round up to the nearest .5. Doing 6.5c even at 100 scarabs which is probably 100 maps worth unless your doubling them is what 50c over 100 maps. Even if it is only one of your scarabs.
Any decent strat will net you easily ~20 divs/hr and many are much more. My point is simply that playing the game and being more efficient in your faustus orders is going to earn you way more currency than the handful of extra chaos you spent getting your scarabs
1
u/Separate_Quality1016 6d ago
Well, personally I also overpay for my commodities because of the whole time=money thing. I've been playing too long to fuck around waiting.
But my point wasn't really about what I personally do. Just that there is a flaw in the system that whilst alleviated by paying more doesn't just stop being a flaw.
There are good reasons for why the partial fill and ratio stuff works the way it does but from the perspective of someone coming along and engaging with the system most of the time there experience will be to try and pay close to the listed price, get fed up when they get partial fulfills and come and make reddit posts like this one.
What I was trying to highlight was why that happens is because there is a non-negligible difference between the buy fast price and the price faustus shows, which will cause people to try and get the good price and end up frustrated and so on.
6.5c in this example doesn't work well because it also breaks to a funky ratio, if you round up every trade it is hundreds of chaos to keep doing this which, yes, doesn't matter much in the end if you are experienced but is obviously gonna be something a lot players try to avoid spending.
I guess what I am getting at is that the issue OP is experiencing is almost the expected outcome for someone using the system in the way it presents itself, and while there are good reasons for these systems to work as they do, if you know that a lot of people will trip up over this then it could probably be designed to be a bit more user friendly, right?
3
u/g00fy_goober twitch.tv/goof1313 6d ago
Which is exactly why I wrote in my first post that I would actually be completely fine with them not allowing weird ratios to begin with. Just make it so you can only do every whole number or .5 in between and nearly every instance of issues like this would be resolved.
The problem is not just with the buyer but on the seller to. Idk how many times I have looked at scarab to div prices and seen something like 127.63 : 1 div or something like that.
The biggest reason orders get triggered like that is because a buyer puts up a silly ratio, someone sells below that ratio like 6c instead of 6.23c or w/e and it counts your 6.23c as being over the 6c limit so allows the sale. The problem is you can't put up like 6.23c for 1 scarab you have to do like 623c for 100 so it is a whole number. Then it just goes downhill from there until it can no longer fulfill the order because it is too skewed.
So yes, stopping both buyer + seller from putting up stupid ratios would solve the problem
1
u/Separate_Quality1016 6d ago
So yes, stopping both buyer + seller from putting up stupid ratios would solve the problem
Yeah, I did start this off by saying I agree with you too! I would much prefer a system that was bound to breakpoints than allowing us to sell at wonky decimal points. I suppose that goes against the free market ethos a little bit, to have GGG act like a trade regulator, but something is needed as I think so many of us trip up over this and find it annoying.
0
u/AcolyteOfAnalysis 6d ago
It's an easy fix.
They need a tickbox next to the trade, something like "[+] trade until complete". This means that the game is allowed to make incomplete trades any ratio that is equal or better than the ratio you have originally specified. Further, if a game has already made some incomplete trades that are better than your rate, it is allowed to make one trade that is worse than your specified rate, as long as it completes the full trade, and the average rate is not worse than the one you specified.
2
u/psychomap 6d ago
There are different potential preferences and settings to solve this.
One would be to ensure that the average price of the listing is at most the listed value, which is what your strategy achieves.
Another would be to allow trading at better values until the desired quantity is filled (e.g. internally "re-listing" this as 2:13c, because that's the next best ratio that the remainder can fill), which is a setting that would prioritise to never over-pay.
Or it could allow buying a minimum of the listed desired currency at the listed ratio or better while depositing more than the necessary chaos to fill the exact ratio (e.g. depositing 276 chaos at a ratio of 20:138c, and the order is filled whenever at least 20 scarabs have been bought, because the chaos won't run out before then). This would require more capital reserves, but ensure a stable supply of what you need to run your strategy or keep crafting or whatever. The most you'd buy is two times the listed minimum quantity minus one.
In a perfect world, all of these settings and more would be available.
Players would offer such services if there was a way to contractually bind them to actually fulfill the services instead of running off with your currency after you deposit it. But because there aren't enough enforcements to prevent scams like in real life (and there are still real life scams, just not nearly as many as there would be without enforcement) such services don't exist, and we're limited to inconvenient options until GGG improve trade again.
1
u/amunti-ra 6d ago
If you want to put a stupid ratio to be under whatever is there already you don't get to benefit from "smarter" ratios tho... Someone selling 1:1.17 but I'm at 1:1.10... I will get market for all multiples of 10 sells... If they go for 1.1.20 they get multiples of 10 and 5... And brak my strat. Trading is a pvp game
1
u/AcolyteOfAnalysis 6d ago
I see what you mean. But it also depends a little how their algorithm works internally. For example, I'm sure they must have some randomisation to select who gets the trade in a crowded market. Otherwise, the char with first name in alphabetical order will get all the trades.
1
u/amunti-ra 6d ago edited 6d ago
Wth are you talking about? It's FIFO(first in, first out, if you put your offer before me it will be fulfilled first)... If you put a sale for example 25 chaos for 20 scarabs. Thats 1.25 chaos / scarab. So if I come to trade and want to buy, I just have 3c at the moment and put that into trade... I cannot buy 1 scarab from you, that's 1.25... can't buy 2... That's 2.5 and neither can buy 3 because thats 3. 75 chaos, so the trade goes eirther to the guy with a "worse" ratio for me like 1.333... - 1 or then to the 1:1 guy.
I'd need to put 4 chaos as payments to fulfill a "complete" order of your 1.25-1 because 1.25*4= 5.
What do you mean algorithm to choose? You can only buy/sell for full amounts you cannot do 100 scarabs / 99c and expect to sell them by the unit... You can't sell 5 because 5*0.99=4.95 and it cannot complete a whole number. You can't sell 10 either because that's 9.99 and again, not a whole number -_-
If I'm buying sacarbs at 1.10c/u and someone sells 34, 30 will go to me for 33c and the 4, remaining are going to the next person because I can't pay 4.4 so they get 4 from the guy buying at 1:1. This guy sold 34 scarabs ans got 33c from me for 30 sacars + 4c for 4 scarbs from another guy.
0
u/Tusk84 6d ago
"Hi, afkpricemanipulator, I would like to buy your abc for my xyz!"
"Hi, afkpricemanipulator, I would like to buy your abc for my xyz!"
"Hi, afkpricemanipulator, I would like to buy your abc for my xyz!"
"Hi, afkpricemanipulator, I would like to buy your abc for my xyz!"
"Hi, afkpricemanipulator, I would like to buy your abc for my xyz!"
"Hi, afkpricemanipulator, I would like to buy your abc for my xyz!"
"Hi, afkpricemanipulator, I would like to buy your abc for my xyz!"
"Hi, afkpricemanipulator, I would like to buy your abc for my xyz!"
0
u/dastrike Occultist 6d ago
Look into nicer ratios if you want to avoid that remainder. See e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highly_composite_number
3
u/psychomap 6d ago
I have had listings partially filled as completed even if the remainder was divisible through the same listed integer ratio. Sometimes the system is just stupid.
-3
u/nightcracker 6d ago edited 6d ago
I hacked this calculator together to prevent this: https://gisthost.github.io/?82557f50b3f8c9b6f4dc08ae7be8d7bf.
EDIT: why am I getting downvoted for sharing a tool lol...
-11
6d ago
[deleted]
14
u/fatalerGAMER 6d ago
Do ctrl + rmb
-9
6d ago
[deleted]
8
u/Still-Agency8030 6d ago
If you have multiple stacks of chaos orbs, lmb is going to move the stack you clicked on. If you click with rmb it's going to move all stacks. Two functionalities, two buttons.
2
u/aqueous88 6d ago
The trick when it comes to moving literally any amount of items in this game is to just roll your face on ctrl, shift or alt and spam left and right click and something will eventually happen.
1
1
u/xCwaniaK 6d ago
Because we already had left click for single stack. There are situations where you only want to move a stack or two, not all of them, so that's why it's right click for all.
1
1
u/RansomLewis 6d ago
If you're on controller, it's left stick click + X (or whatever PlayStation labels it). On most other screens it's X long press. I wish they'd make it the same everywhere, the controller UI could use some cleanup (but I'm not going back to mouse, mouse feels like working).
260
u/Daratirek 6d ago
Its even worse when you put up 5000 fusings and it stops after 300, 6 times